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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257402 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:08 - Jan 19 with 2750 viewsStokieBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:43 - Jan 19 by GlasgowBlue

I was replying to DJR who was talking about who runs Gaza when all this ends.
[Post edited 19 Jan 9:45]


I wasn't having a dig, just making a conceptual point that the reality of the situation needs to be factored in by those making plans.

SB

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:17 - Jan 19 with 2731 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:56 - Jan 19 by DJR

You have been consistent and principled in what you say to your credit. The problem it seems to me (and I've said it all along) is that, particularly since 7 October, the mood in Israel is against a Palestinian state, regardless of whether Bibi is the leader.

This, reported today, illustrates the point.

Yair Lapid, a former Israeli PM who opposes Netanyahu’s leadership, says he could see the Palestinian Authority governing the Gaza Strip after the war if it undergoes “a real reform”.

Speaking to Israel’s national broadcaster Kan, Lapid said: “If the Palestinian Authority undergoes a real reform on the issue of incitement and corruption, its civilian apparatus can be used in some of the components in Gaza.”

However, he said he still does not think that would lead to a Palestinian state.
[Post edited 19 Jan 9:01]


Netnyahu's ethnic cleansing cat is well out of the one state bag. Schools, admin buildings, hospitals, colleges all systematially destroyed

What better way of creating a nursery and breeding ground for despair, grief, hatred and extremism. Long term ramifications for the world and we are continuing to offer cover and cimfort to the process.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:23 - Jan 19 with 2651 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:08 - Jan 19 by StokieBlue

I wasn't having a dig, just making a conceptual point that the reality of the situation needs to be factored in by those making plans.

SB


And it's not just the physical damage. This from a writer and niece of Benazir Bhuttto indicates an entire generation will suffer when it comes to education.

[Post edited 19 Jan 13:24]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:46 - Jan 19 with 2632 viewsDJR

As what's going on in Gaza has slipped off the news headlines, here are some reports from today. The disgraceful thing is that Western leaders are complicit in all this, and yet seek to lecture the rest of the world on their failings when it comes to international law.

"Health conditions in Gaza are so dire that one doctor has resorted to amputating his injured daughter’s leg at home without anaesthesia. The doctor, Hany al-Faisal, said he had no option but to take the drastic measure because continuing strikes have made it too unsafe for the family to leave home to seek treatment in a hospital."

"According to UNICEF, nearly 20,000 babies have been born during the continuing war in Gaza, while 135,000 children in the Gaza Strip under the age of two are at “severe risk” of malnutrition. “The situation of pregnant women and newborns in the Gaza Strip is beyond belief, and it demands intensified and immediate actions,” Tess Ingram, a UNICEF spokesperson, said. “The already precarious situation of infant and maternal mortality has worsened as the healthcare system collapses.” Ingram stressed that mothers face unimaginable challenges in accessing adequate medical care, nutrition and protection before, during and after birth. Pregnant and breastfeeding mothers and their babies are living in “inhumane conditions, makeshift shelters (with) poor nutrition and unsafe water”."

"Essential aid including food and medical supplies are being prevented from entering Gaza, says the charity ActionAid UK, criticising “confusing and arbitrary rules about the type of aid permitted to enter Gaza”. The charity says it is resulting in thousands of essential items being stopped at border crossings and prevented from reaching those who desperately need it, as well as increasing the time spent on screening trucks, leading to a backlog at the border."

"Unicef described the Gaza Strip as “the most dangerous place in the world to be a child” in a statement released after a visit to the area by its deputy executive director Ted Chaiban.
Chaiban has just finished a three-day visit to the Gaza Strip where he was able to coordinate with local and international organisations about the emergency response and take stock of humanitarian operations since the last time he was there two months ago. In the statement, published on Unicef’s website, Chaiban said he met “children and their families suffering some of the most horrific conditions I have ever seen”.
He said: “Since my last visit, the situation has gone from catastrophic to near collapse. Unicef has described the Gaza Strip as the most dangerous place in the world to be a child. We have said this is a war on children. But these truths do not seem to be getting through.”
Of the nearly 25,000 people reported to have been killed in the Gaza Strip since the escalation in hostilities, up to 70% are reported to be women and children, he said. “The killing of children must cease immediately.”
In the statement, Chaiban recalled meeting wounded children, such as 13-year-old Ibrahim who had undergone an arm amputation without anaesthetic after developing gangrene because of a lack of medicine for his infected and damaged hand. He was in “a designated shelter with his family, in an area they were told was safe, when everything collapsed around them”.
Chaiban continued: “The sheer mass of civilians on the border is hard to fathom and the conditions they live in are inhumane. Water is scarce and poor sanitation is inescapable. The cold and rain this week created rivers of waste. The little food that is available doesn’t meet children’s unique nutritional needs. As a result, thousands of children are malnourished and sick."
Cases of diarrhoea were up 40% from two months ago, before the escalation in hostilities, said Chaiban, adding that by mid-December, 71,000 cases were recorded among children under five, a more than 4000% increase since the war began.
“This is nothing short of a staggering decline in conditions for the children of Gaza. If this decline persists, we could see deaths due to indiscriminate conflict compounded by deaths due to disease and hunger. We need a major breakthrough,” he said. Chaiban has called to an end to the “intense bombardment”, which is not only killing thousands of people, but also impeding the delivery of aid he said.
“Before the conflict more than 500 trucks entered the Gaza Strip every day. When I was there in November, about 60 aid trucks a day entered. Now, it is about 130 trucks a day alongside an average of 30 commercial trucks a day. This is with the opening of a second crossing point but it still remains wholly inadequate. We are trying to drip assistance through a straw to meet an ocean of need,” said Chaiban."
[Post edited 19 Jan 13:50]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:25 - Jan 19 with 2549 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:03 - Jan 19 by DJR

That rings a bell with me. Maybe you posted it. But I have certainly come across people from the left in Israel still arguing for a two state solution, although the left in Israel does appear to be a rapidly diminishing minority.


I would say that even amongst the left leaning Israelis, a two state solution is no longer something they will be pushing for. And to put myself in their shoes I can understand why. Hamas control Gaza. If Israel didn't have a security presence in the West Bank then Hamas would overthrow the Palestinian Authority.

Hamas have just crossed the border and slaughtered 1200 Israelis. The Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel and death to Jews. Why would the Israeli's be inclined to give them a state with two separate borders to the east and the west?

Sadly, as much as I believe it is the only sustainable solution for peace, i think we are a long way of that happening. Certainly not whilst Hamas are in existence.

I note that the EU voted for a ceasefire last night on the condition th all hostages are returned and Hamas is dismantled.

https://apnews.com/article/eu-israel-gaza-hamas-ceasefire-7e353c48c3f9ba82709db0

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:05 - Jan 19 with 2503 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:25 - Jan 19 by GlasgowBlue

I would say that even amongst the left leaning Israelis, a two state solution is no longer something they will be pushing for. And to put myself in their shoes I can understand why. Hamas control Gaza. If Israel didn't have a security presence in the West Bank then Hamas would overthrow the Palestinian Authority.

Hamas have just crossed the border and slaughtered 1200 Israelis. The Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel and death to Jews. Why would the Israeli's be inclined to give them a state with two separate borders to the east and the west?

Sadly, as much as I believe it is the only sustainable solution for peace, i think we are a long way of that happening. Certainly not whilst Hamas are in existence.

I note that the EU voted for a ceasefire last night on the condition th all hostages are returned and Hamas is dismantled.

https://apnews.com/article/eu-israel-gaza-hamas-ceasefire-7e353c48c3f9ba82709db0


I recognise and fully understand the thinking of many Israelis on this. Indeed, when it comes to a two state solution, my criticism is of Western leaders giving carte blanche to Israel to do whatever it wants in Gaza, but using a two state solution as a sop to prevent criticism of their stance and silence, whilst fully knowing that a two state solution is out of the question.

And your point about Gaza and West Bank being separate only adding to the difficulty is one that has struck me and I have made.
[Post edited 19 Jan 20:52]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 06:07 - Jan 20 with 2384 viewsWeWereZombies

BBC News - Eisenkot: Key Israeli war leader challenges Netanyahu over Gaza strategy
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68035744

An interesting three minutes read I thought.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:11 - Jan 20 with 2357 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 06:07 - Jan 20 by WeWereZombies

BBC News - Eisenkot: Key Israeli war leader challenges Netanyahu over Gaza strategy
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68035744

An interesting three minutes read I thought.


It is to be noted, however, that Gadi Eisenkot is a member of National Unity who joined the national government following 7 October.

Netanyahu's Likud Party, along with other right wing parties, have 70 of the 120 Knesset seats, so it strikes me that Netanyahu will only come under pressure if members of that coalition start to turn against him. And knowing his resilience, he could well hold out until the next Knesset elections in 2026, especially if he continues to pander to his right wing coalition partners.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:42 - Jan 20 with 2251 viewsBanksterDebtSlave


[Post edited 20 Jan 19:43]

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:31 - Jan 21 with 2133 viewsDJR

I posted the following on 14 October.

"Interesting to note from the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs that since the beginning of 2008, and not including the last month, there have been 3,803 Palestinian civilian fatalities in Israel and the occupied territories (a third of whom were women and children), and 177 Israeli civilian fatalities.

https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

If that ratio of fatalities were to be maintained in the current conflict, we could be looking at over 25,000 Palestinian civilian fatalities once it is finally over."

With the announcement today that a total of 25,105 Palestinians have been killed, my prediction has been proved right because even if you accept Israeli claims that 8,000 Hamas fighters have been killed (which doesn't seem to have been independently confirmed or verified), there are an estimated 8,000 people missing, trapped under buildings and the like.

And of course direct casualties are only one part of the the story, because as aid agencies have said a collapsing health service, and lack of access to food and spreading disease, mean, for example, that people with chronic conditions are dying because of lack of medicine or treatment, and very young children will die from malnutrition or disease. . In other words, we will undoubtedly been looking at a large number of excess deaths.

And as I saw reported somewhere, the contrast with the Ukraine couldn't be more different because women and children left the country very early on, something not possible in Gaza. There is, however, a bit of a Catch 22 about this because their being allowed to leave would be a further displacement of Palestinian people from their lands.

EDIT: To put that 25,000 figure in context, scaled up pro rata by reference to population it would amount to 720,000 fatalities in the UK in three months, whereas in WW2 over a six year period, there were 67,000 UK civilian fatalities, and UK 383,000 military fatalities

[Post edited 21 Jan 9:56]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:59 - Jan 21 with 2102 viewsDJR

This indicates that diplomacy is the only way to free the hostages, which seems common sense to me.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-783000
[Post edited 21 Jan 10:06]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:10 - Jan 21 with 2085 viewsStokieBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:59 - Jan 21 by DJR

This indicates that diplomacy is the only way to free the hostages, which seems common sense to me.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-783000
[Post edited 21 Jan 10:06]


Obviously releasing the hostages was a goal but the way things have progressed does cast doubt on whether it was a primary goal.

Flattening Gaza was never going to bring that about, it increasingly looks like it was always the plan to destroy as much of Gaza as possible once that was realised. Even a retired IDF general is accusing the government of lying about the aims of the war.

The whole situation is horrible and as GB has highlighted, a two state solution seems further away than ever.

SB
[Post edited 21 Jan 10:16]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:03 - Jan 21 with 2060 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:10 - Jan 21 by StokieBlue

Obviously releasing the hostages was a goal but the way things have progressed does cast doubt on whether it was a primary goal.

Flattening Gaza was never going to bring that about, it increasingly looks like it was always the plan to destroy as much of Gaza as possible once that was realised. Even a retired IDF general is accusing the government of lying about the aims of the war.

The whole situation is horrible and as GB has highlighted, a two state solution seems further away than ever.

SB
[Post edited 21 Jan 10:16]


The intent is crystal clear now. And was likely the intent all along.

And we are still doing nothing to stop it, whilst supporting it.

"Dispossed, displaced, opressed people are not entitled to a state or their own land or self determination" says a nation born (in modern terms) of a recognition by the world that a displaced opressed people were entitled to a state.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:40 - Jan 21 with 2014 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:03 - Jan 21 by redrickstuhaart

The intent is crystal clear now. And was likely the intent all along.

And we are still doing nothing to stop it, whilst supporting it.

"Dispossed, displaced, opressed people are not entitled to a state or their own land or self determination" says a nation born (in modern terms) of a recognition by the world that a displaced opressed people were entitled to a state.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68046625

Disappontment is not enough Mr Schapps. Youa re not a poweless bystander. You are in government and can withdraw support for Israel int eh absence of an acceptable plan or aim.

You should have done so weeks or months ago, because the position has been obvious for a long time. However, I appreciate that most of the world have been playing along whilst Israel pretended it was trying to be reasonable. Now, however, there is no excuse whatsoever.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:11 - Jan 21 with 1973 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:40 - Jan 21 by redrickstuhaart

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68046625

Disappontment is not enough Mr Schapps. Youa re not a poweless bystander. You are in government and can withdraw support for Israel int eh absence of an acceptable plan or aim.

You should have done so weeks or months ago, because the position has been obvious for a long time. However, I appreciate that most of the world have been playing along whilst Israel pretended it was trying to be reasonable. Now, however, there is no excuse whatsoever.


The two state solution has been off the table since the expansion of settlements in the West Bank but more generally I posted the following quotes taken from different articles on 6 December.

"With the advent of the new Biden administration in the United States, the phrase “two-state solution” appears to have returned to the forefront in the new U.S. administration’s “reset” of its policy priorities regarding the Palestinian-Israeli dispute.
The phrase is repeated daily by administration officials as well as by international leaders and organizations, as it was during the Obama and previous administrations.
However, as in the past, the phrase is again being bandied about as a form of collective and generalized “wishful thinking,” as the only panacea to the Palestinian-Israeli dispute, but without a full awareness of its history, its practical implications, and the feasibility of its implementation amidst the realities of that dispute."

"... the two-state solution did not appear in UN Security Council Resolution 242, Resolution 338 or in the 1993 Oslo Accords, or in any of its multiple implementation agreements that were generated over the years."

And with respect to your reference to most of the world, the non-aligned movement (comprising 120 nations and 55% of the world's population but not Russia and China) has denounced what's going on in Gaza and called for an immediate ceasefire, so the West is clearly losing the propaganda war and with it any sense of moral authority or influence.
[Post edited 21 Jan 13:20]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:37 - Jan 21 with 1940 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:11 - Jan 21 by DJR

The two state solution has been off the table since the expansion of settlements in the West Bank but more generally I posted the following quotes taken from different articles on 6 December.

"With the advent of the new Biden administration in the United States, the phrase “two-state solution” appears to have returned to the forefront in the new U.S. administration’s “reset” of its policy priorities regarding the Palestinian-Israeli dispute.
The phrase is repeated daily by administration officials as well as by international leaders and organizations, as it was during the Obama and previous administrations.
However, as in the past, the phrase is again being bandied about as a form of collective and generalized “wishful thinking,” as the only panacea to the Palestinian-Israeli dispute, but without a full awareness of its history, its practical implications, and the feasibility of its implementation amidst the realities of that dispute."

"... the two-state solution did not appear in UN Security Council Resolution 242, Resolution 338 or in the 1993 Oslo Accords, or in any of its multiple implementation agreements that were generated over the years."

And with respect to your reference to most of the world, the non-aligned movement (comprising 120 nations and 55% of the world's population but not Russia and China) has denounced what's going on in Gaza and called for an immediate ceasefire, so the West is clearly losing the propaganda war and with it any sense of moral authority or influence.
[Post edited 21 Jan 13:20]


It is the only viable solution possible short of ethnic cleansing and genocide (with the inevitable extremism and polarisation of the western and muslim world which would follow). It has to be pursued.

I agree with the rest of what you say.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:56 - Jan 25 with 1699 viewsDJR

David Cameron clearly still believes in the tooth fairy.



And this headline from the Guardian made me wonder if "bottlenecks" is the new euphemism for the bombing of civilian areas.

UK foreign secretary calls for an end to Israeli 'bottlenecks' preventing aid reaching Gaza.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:31 - Jan 25 with 1617 viewsDJR

Haaretz is reporting the following this evening, which seems promising.

Source familiar with cease-fire/hostage release talks: Israel, Hamas reached basic understandings on most points of the deal

According to a source familiar with the cease-fire/hostage-release negotiations, Israel and Hamas have reached basic agreement on the majority of the deal's terms.

According to the apparent outline, the agreement will last 35 days, during which all Israeli hostages will be released. In exchange, Israel will release Palestinian prisoners and deliver humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip.

The source added that the criteria for the release of prisoners have already been determined, but their identity is still being debated.

According to the source, the only issue that the parties are unable to bridge is whether a complete cease-fire will be declared as a part of the deal, a Hamas demand that Israel refuses.

They added that "there may be other minor changes in the outline, but the main problem that needs to be solved concerns that absolute cease-fire Hamas insists on."
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:51 - Jan 25 with 1606 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:31 - Jan 25 by DJR

Haaretz is reporting the following this evening, which seems promising.

Source familiar with cease-fire/hostage release talks: Israel, Hamas reached basic understandings on most points of the deal

According to a source familiar with the cease-fire/hostage-release negotiations, Israel and Hamas have reached basic agreement on the majority of the deal's terms.

According to the apparent outline, the agreement will last 35 days, during which all Israeli hostages will be released. In exchange, Israel will release Palestinian prisoners and deliver humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip.

The source added that the criteria for the release of prisoners have already been determined, but their identity is still being debated.

According to the source, the only issue that the parties are unable to bridge is whether a complete cease-fire will be declared as a part of the deal, a Hamas demand that Israel refuses.

They added that "there may be other minor changes in the outline, but the main problem that needs to be solved concerns that absolute cease-fire Hamas insists on."


Wont work without a ceasefire.

Why would Hamas give up their only leverage, in return for the effective promise that Israel will plough on once the 35 days is up? They gain almost nothing.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:15 - Jan 25 with 1587 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:51 - Jan 25 by redrickstuhaart

Wont work without a ceasefire.

Why would Hamas give up their only leverage, in return for the effective promise that Israel will plough on once the 35 days is up? They gain almost nothing.


I suppose it hasn't been much in the way of leverage so far, and maybe the ICJ judgment is bringing things into sharper focus. But there seems to be something going on, as Haaretz reports the following.

The [Washington] Post reported on an Israeli proposal that includes a 60-day pause in fighting in exchange for the gradual release of over 100 hostages: First women and children, then men, soldiers and the bodies of hostages still held by Hamas.
[Post edited 25 Jan 21:15]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:36 - Jan 26 with 1473 viewsDJR

Not looking good for Israel so far at the ICJ.
[Post edited 26 Jan 12:51]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:38 - Jan 27 with 1373 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

Allegations that there was UNRWA involvement in the 7th October attacks:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-palestinian-refugee-agency-investig

I don’t think any evidence has been publicly released, but it sounds like the individuals have had contracts suspended whilst investigations are carried out.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:09 - Jan 27 with 1339 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:38 - Jan 27 by SuperKieranMcKenna

Allegations that there was UNRWA involvement in the 7th October attacks:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-palestinian-refugee-agency-investig

I don’t think any evidence has been publicly released, but it sounds like the individuals have had contracts suspended whilst investigations are carried out.


The correct response from them to the allegations made.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:20 - Jan 27 with 1321 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:38 - Jan 27 by SuperKieranMcKenna

Allegations that there was UNRWA involvement in the 7th October attacks:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-palestinian-refugee-agency-investig

I don’t think any evidence has been publicly released, but it sounds like the individuals have had contracts suspended whilst investigations are carried out.


I posted about this a few months ago. Also thousands of UNRWA employees celebrating 7/10 on social media. A UNRWA teacher holding child hostages in his attic and depriving them of medicine, which lead to the German government suspending all aid to UNRWA.

António Guterres saying he is shocked at these revelations is absolute bollox. He was made aware of this some time ago.

Check out the expose by Hillel Neuer. He explains how Hmas have infested the UNRWA. Same with the Hamas control of all the Gazan hospitals that they used to store weapons and hold hostages.
[Post edited 27 Jan 12:27]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:26 - Jan 27 with 1286 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:20 - Jan 27 by GlasgowBlue

I posted about this a few months ago. Also thousands of UNRWA employees celebrating 7/10 on social media. A UNRWA teacher holding child hostages in his attic and depriving them of medicine, which lead to the German government suspending all aid to UNRWA.

António Guterres saying he is shocked at these revelations is absolute bollox. He was made aware of this some time ago.

Check out the expose by Hillel Neuer. He explains how Hmas have infested the UNRWA. Same with the Hamas control of all the Gazan hospitals that they used to store weapons and hold hostages.
[Post edited 27 Jan 12:27]


With 30,000 employees in Gaza I don't suppose anybody will be too surprised if there are some skeletons in cupboards.
Interesting timing with these allegations don't you think though, what with trying to portray the UN as antisemitic.

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
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