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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:54 - Mar 22 by DJR
This is the French take on things, and it was aspects like this which led to the Chinese and Russian veto.
"France’s ambassador to the UN, Nicolas de Riviere, says the language on the US draft resolution for a ceasefire in Gaza was “not strong enough”.
“If you make the ceasefire dependent on the release of hostages, you take the risk of having thousands and thousands of more killings in the Gaza Strip in the weeks and months to come,” de Riviere told Al Jazeera.
“So you need the immediate and unconditional release of hostages – but you need a ceasefire right now. It has to stop. What’s happening right now is totally contrary to the Geneva Conventions.”
The French envoy said the draft’s language on Israel’s plan to attack Rafah was “weak as well”.
“You have to explain to Israel an operation on Rafah is off limits. It’s a red line and this has been said by many leaders as well. This should be in the resolution.”
As it is, I saw reported that Macron was hoping to come up with his own resolution, and the following from the UN at 10.36am New York time suggests things might not be lost.
10:36am – The meeting has adjourned and there is speculation that ambassadors may return to the Chamber this afternoon in New York in emergency session to debate the new draft which both Russia and China indicated they would support."
📍#Gaza: For the 2nd time this week, a food convoy has been denied to northern Gaza.
🛑 Today, the Israeli Authorities denied another @UNRWA convoy with much needed food supplies from going to the north where people are on the verge of famine.
For the 2nd time this week, a food convoy has been denied to northern Gaza.
🛑 Today, the Israeli Authorities denied another @UNRWA convoy with much needed food supplies from going to the north where people are on the verge of famine.
The last time @UNRWA was able to send food aid to the north was nearly 2️⃣ month ago.
I’ve said it many times: this is a man made hunger & looming famine which can still be averted. The Israeli Authorities must allow delivering food aid at scale to the north including via UNRWA, the largest humanitarian organisation in Gaza.
Meanwhile, children will continue to die of malnutrition & dehydration under our watch. The unbearable cannot become the new normal.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:38 - Mar 23 with 1548 views
Congress has approved a $1.2 trillion funding package to avert partial government shutdown. The package has Biden's support and it has been sent to him for signing.
One provision of the package halts funding for UNWRA, the United Nations Agency that provides aid to Palestinians, until March 2025.
This the day before the UN Secretary General said in Rafah.
“Here, from this crossing, we see the heartbreak and heartlessness of it all. A long line of blocked relief trucks on one side of the gates, the long shadow of starvation on the other,” he said. “That is more than tragic. It is a moral outrage.”
[Post edited 23 Mar 13:39]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:15 - Mar 23 with 1480 views
Hate to say it, and this may get down votes, but it feels like some of the UN just want to forget about the hostages. I understand the desire to link them to any ceasefire.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:22 - Mar 23 by pointofblue
Hate to say it, and this may get down votes, but it feels like some of the UN just want to forget about the hostages. I understand the desire to link them to any ceasefire.
You don't deserve a down vote (and I never down-vote anyway) although I don't agree with what you say.
The evidence is that Netanyahu doesn't care about the hostages, to the annoyance of the families.
To take as examples, below are introductions to a couple of articles in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz in February.
"Netanyahu's Clear Message to Israelis: Abandoning the Hostages Is in the National Interest
The subtext from the prime minister's 'total victory' slogan is that a hostages-for-cease-fire deal will prevent the IDF from getting the job done."
"Netanyahu's Influence Campaign Against the Hostages Is a Master Class in Propaganda
Netanyahu's 'total victory' spiel has been intertwined with an underground campaign against the hostage families, and as Israeli officials work overtime to negotiate a deal to free the captives, the prime minister is undermining the process to pander to his hard-right base"
[Post edited 23 Mar 18:36]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:07 - Mar 23 with 1362 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:22 - Mar 23 by pointofblue
Hate to say it, and this may get down votes, but it feels like some of the UN just want to forget about the hostages. I understand the desire to link them to any ceasefire.
Further proof that Israel doesn't want a ceasefire any time soon, with the result that there is no hope for the hostages, one of whom is reported today as having died because of lack of food.
Watch Israel’s Ambassador to the UN @giladerdan1 make it clear to the Security Council that no country wants to avoid an operation in Rafah more than Israel. These are our soldiers who are risking their lives. But only the complete elimination of Hamas can lead to a ceasefire.… pic.twitter.com/Yykz33UYvA
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:07 - Mar 23 by DJR
Further proof that Israel doesn't want a ceasefire any time soon, with the result that there is no hope for the hostages, one of whom is reported today as having died because of lack of food.
Watch Israel’s Ambassador to the UN @giladerdan1 make it clear to the Security Council that no country wants to avoid an operation in Rafah more than Israel. These are our soldiers who are risking their lives. But only the complete elimination of Hamas can lead to a ceasefire.… pic.twitter.com/Yykz33UYvA
Prediction. Hamas will reject this ceasefire proposal. People on this thread will ignore Hamas’ rejection and continue to demand Israel “Ceasefire Now!”
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:07 - Mar 23 by DJR
Further proof that Israel doesn't want a ceasefire any time soon, with the result that there is no hope for the hostages, one of whom is reported today as having died because of lack of food.
Watch Israel’s Ambassador to the UN @giladerdan1 make it clear to the Security Council that no country wants to avoid an operation in Rafah more than Israel. These are our soldiers who are risking their lives. But only the complete elimination of Hamas can lead to a ceasefire.… pic.twitter.com/Yykz33UYvA
There are a number of apparent inconsistencies there. Firstly 'only the complete elimination of Hamas can lead to a ceasefire' - but if you eliminate Hamas who then releases any Israeli hostages still held ? Secondly, did I hear him right when he referred to Israeli troops as 'our children' ? Not an incorrect statement but a false equivalence when you compare Palestinian children who are minors losing their lives with full grown men and women in body armour (because I think one thing we cannot accuse Israel of is the use of child soldiers.) Thirdly, he starts off talking about the capabilities of Hamas being eliminated before ending with the elimination of Hamas - so the only thing that is clear is that Israel will decide for themselves when Hamas is eliminated and when a ceasefire can happen.
You have to feel some sympathy for Blinken (and Starmer a few weeks ago before 'SpeakerGate') in trying to get a UN resolution that will not only get a majority but which will be effective in bringing some respite from the bloodshed and destruction of people's homes, as well as bringing about some sort of pathway to release of more hostages.
Prediction. Hamas will reject this ceasefire proposal. People on this thread will ignore Hamas’ rejection and continue to demand Israel “Ceasefire Now!”
And others will continue to object to the genocide regardless of whether a ceasefire can be negotiated. Indiscriminate bombing, cutting off water, electricity and food is not a proportionate use of force to bring Hamas to justice.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:28 - Mar 23 by Nthsuffolkblue
And others will continue to object to the genocide regardless of whether a ceasefire can be negotiated. Indiscriminate bombing, cutting off water, electricity and food is not a proportionate use of force to bring Hamas to justice.
I don’t recall anyone in here ever claiming that Israel’s actions in Gaza ever was “ a proportionate use of force to bring Hamas to justice.”
Prediction. Hamas will reject this ceasefire proposal. People on this thread will ignore Hamas’ rejection and continue to demand Israel “Ceasefire Now!”
The Haaretz take on this is different. Here are some passages from the article.
"Israel Agrees to U.S. Hostage Deal Proposal, Hamas Yet to Respond, Official Says
According to the official, the proposal deals with the release of the 40 first hostages in the deal. Sources in Hamas' leadership told Haaretz that the Israeli officials remarks were 'Israeli manipulation to justify the continuation of the war'
A senior Israeli official said on Saturday that the Israeli delegation to Qatar has agreed to an American proposal regarding the ratio of Palestinian terrorists to be released in exchange for Israeli hostages, but Hamas has yet to answer.
According to the official, the proposal deals with the release of the 40 first hostages in the deal. "We're still not close to an agreement, but the negotiations continue," the official said.
Sources in Hamas' leadership told Haaretz that the Israeli officials remarks were "Israeli manipulation to justify the continuation of the war," and claimed that the American proposal does not include an agreement to end the war.
The primary sources of dispute in the ongoing negotiations, according to Arab diplomats who spoke with Haaretz, are the distribution system for humanitarian aid and Hamas' demand that displaced residents return to the northern Gaza Strip. The diplomats said that Israel opposes the return of the displaced to the northern Gaza Strip, including women and children."
And when it comes to the hostages, the same article includes the following from a letter the hostages' families have written to Biden.
"As Israel's closest ally, we seek your assistance in steering the Israeli Prime Minister towards the right course of action. Above all, the Israeli public yearns for the safe return of the hostages. We are reaching out to you because we are increasingly frustrated and worried about the lack of ongoing communication and commitment from the Israeli Prime Minister and the War Cabinet to the hostage release cause," they wrote.
The letter, which was sent on Thursday, was signed by 588 hostages' relatives, including three American families. The contents of the letter were coordinated with the Hostages and Missing Families Forum, and was sent amid hostage deal negotiations being conducted in Doha, Qatar.
[Post edited 24 Mar 8:26]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:15 - Mar 24 with 1108 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:24 - Mar 23 by DJR
You don't deserve a down vote (and I never down-vote anyway) although I don't agree with what you say.
The evidence is that Netanyahu doesn't care about the hostages, to the annoyance of the families.
To take as examples, below are introductions to a couple of articles in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz in February.
"Netanyahu's Clear Message to Israelis: Abandoning the Hostages Is in the National Interest
The subtext from the prime minister's 'total victory' slogan is that a hostages-for-cease-fire deal will prevent the IDF from getting the job done."
"Netanyahu's Influence Campaign Against the Hostages Is a Master Class in Propaganda
Netanyahu's 'total victory' spiel has been intertwined with an underground campaign against the hostage families, and as Israeli officials work overtime to negotiate a deal to free the captives, the prime minister is undermining the process to pander to his hard-right base"
[Post edited 23 Mar 18:36]
Then the best thing to do would be to paint him into a corner. Promise the return of the hostages for a ceasefire and see how he responds. He'll have a lot of pressure from the Israeli public and the Americans at that point to agree.
No doubt, he'll try and sell the image of Hamas not being trustworthy to continue the war. But, at the moment, Netanyahu and Hamas are almost bizarre allies - the ongoing 'power' of each is being aided by the other.
'The last time Palestinians had the chance to vote for their national leaders was 18 years ago, and those elections sparked a civil war in Palestinian politics.
That isn't a metaphor: Hamas, which won the elections, and Fatah, the biggest political faction, were shooting each other in Gaza's streets.
The fighting ended with Hamas taking control of Gaza, and Fatah running the occupied West Bank through the Palestinian Authority [PA]...
The 7 October Hamas attacks on Israel, and the war in Gaza, ripped that picture to shreds...
The Gaza war might have exploded Palestinian politics, but one of the few things it hasn't changed is disillusionment with the PA, the body that the US is banking on to take charge of Gaza...
Last month, representatives from Fatah and Hamas sat down in Moscow with other Palestinian factions to discuss a way forward...
But that feelgood moment in Moscow was quickly shattered when Hamas reacted furiously to the appointment of Mr Mustafa [new PA Prime Minister), accusing Mahmoud Abbas [PA President in the West Bank who appointed him] of acting unilaterally and taking "empty steps" without national consensus...
Fatah hit back, accusing Hamas of triggering "a catastrophe" for the Palestinian people by attacking Israel on 7 October; a catastrophe that was worse, it said, than the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in 1948, when the Israeli state was created...
"It's so depressing to be 33-years-old - like I am now - and I haven't voted even once in my country," said Arab Barghouti, son of the jailed political leader Marwan Barghouti...
Arab's father Marwan - currently serving five life sentences for murder in an Israeli jail - is probably the most popular figure in Palestinian politics. His supporters call him the Palestinian Mandela... [note that Madela briefly carried a revolver but never murdered anyone]
The Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has proudly declared that he will block the formation of a Palestinian state and is widely seen as having promoted division between the West Bank and Gaza as a way of doing that.
A popular, unifying figure like Barghouti - convicted of murdering Israelis - is the last person he wants leading the Palestinians.
Mahmoud Abbas also has much to fear from his release...
To what extent Hamas still holds power in Gaza, after more than five months of war, is complicated and difficult to assess...
But Hamas fighters are still confronting Israeli forces across the Gaza Strip, most of its top leadership still appear to be free, and Israel says several Hamas battalions remain intact in the southern border town of Rafah...
The dilemma will be how to give Hamas a voice - even a discreet one - without triggering resistance from influential outside powers like the US - and, of course, from Israel, which is also trying to veto any role for the PA in Gaza...a majority of those interviewed by the Palestinian Centre for Policy and Survey Research said they wanted Hamas to run Gaza after the war; only 11% wanted the PA to take charge there...
Despite all this, Arab Barghouti is optimistic.
"We Palestinians don't have the privilege of being hopeless," he told me. "If we lose hope, we lose our country, we lose our land. Palestinians need hope. We haven't had hope in a very long time."'
There is a lot to unpack there, and even more in the full article - which I doubt even gives a fraction of the number of issues that are involved in this disaster. But in my opinion the necessity of a two state solution shines through, both for the survival of the Palestinian people and the Israeli state project.
Edit: additions in square brackets are my own, not from the BBC article except for the PA abbreviation and explanation of who Mustafa and Abbas are.
I haven't posted too often on this subject. I often find it too difficult to properly articulate what I want to say, as many of my thoughts are towards Israel's response post the senseless October attacks and the unnecessary suffering they have plunged those living in Gaza into. I fear on such a polarised subject I may be accused of some sort of anti jewish sentiment, which would never be my intention. However. I saw this item on the news last night and it made me feel sick.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:54 - Mar 22 by DJR
This is the French take on things, and it was aspects like this which led to the Chinese and Russian veto.
"France’s ambassador to the UN, Nicolas de Riviere, says the language on the US draft resolution for a ceasefire in Gaza was “not strong enough”.
“If you make the ceasefire dependent on the release of hostages, you take the risk of having thousands and thousands of more killings in the Gaza Strip in the weeks and months to come,” de Riviere told Al Jazeera.
“So you need the immediate and unconditional release of hostages – but you need a ceasefire right now. It has to stop. What’s happening right now is totally contrary to the Geneva Conventions.”
The French envoy said the draft’s language on Israel’s plan to attack Rafah was “weak as well”.
“You have to explain to Israel an operation on Rafah is off limits. It’s a red line and this has been said by many leaders as well. This should be in the resolution.”
As it is, I saw reported that Macron was hoping to come up with his own resolution, and the following from the UN at 10.36am New York time suggests things might not be lost.
10:36am – The meeting has adjourned and there is speculation that ambassadors may return to the Chamber this afternoon in New York in emergency session to debate the new draft which both Russia and China indicated they would support."
Following on from the last two paragraphs, this is what Al Jazeera is currently reporting.
A UN Security Council resolution on a ceasefire in Gaza expected to be voted on later today has been worked on with the US to avoid a veto, according to diplomats speaking to the AFP news agency on condition of anonymity.
“We expect, barring a last-minute twist, that the resolution will be adopted and that the US will not vote against it,” one diplomat told AFP.
Last Friday, the Security Council voted on a draft submitted by the US that called for an “immediate” ceasefire linked to the release of captives. China and Russia vetoed the resolution, criticising it for stopping short of explicitly demanding Israel halt its campaign.
The US itself has vetoed three resolutions calling for a ceasefire in Gaza.
Earlier today, UN chief Guterres said the new resolution does not link the release of captives with calls for a ceasefire.
[Post edited 25 Mar 9:44]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:45 - Mar 25 with 837 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:06 - Mar 25 by Whos_blue
I haven't posted too often on this subject. I often find it too difficult to properly articulate what I want to say, as many of my thoughts are towards Israel's response post the senseless October attacks and the unnecessary suffering they have plunged those living in Gaza into. I fear on such a polarised subject I may be accused of some sort of anti jewish sentiment, which would never be my intention. However. I saw this item on the news last night and it made me feel sick.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:06 - Mar 25 by Whos_blue
I haven't posted too often on this subject. I often find it too difficult to properly articulate what I want to say, as many of my thoughts are towards Israel's response post the senseless October attacks and the unnecessary suffering they have plunged those living in Gaza into. I fear on such a polarised subject I may be accused of some sort of anti jewish sentiment, which would never be my intention. However. I saw this item on the news last night and it made me feel sick.
I'm guessing how this thread has gone so far is that someone may post a counter position on this, but my gut instinct on this one is one of disgust.
Why would you be accused of “anti jewish sentiment” for being critical of the disproportionate response by the Israeli government to the massacres of 7/10 and condemning the Israeli government for the indiscriminate bombing of innocent civilians? You aren’t using any antisemitic tropes or holding Jews collectively responsible for the actions of the state of an Israel.
There are literally 67 pages on this thread of posts criticising the actions of the IDF. No one has been accused of “anti Jewish sentiment” unless they’ve actually strayed into using antisemitic language. And those posts have usually been deleted by admin.
There is absolutely no reason for anyone to accuse you of “anti jewish sentiment”. You seem to have fallen into the trap of believing those who do repeat antisemitic tropes and then bleat “you can’t even criticise Israel without being accused of being an anti semite”. Which of course is absolute nonsense.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:09 - Mar 25 by GlasgowBlue
Why would you be accused of “anti jewish sentiment” for being critical of the disproportionate response by the Israeli government to the massacres of 7/10 and condemning the Israeli government for the indiscriminate bombing of innocent civilians? You aren’t using any antisemitic tropes or holding Jews collectively responsible for the actions of the state of an Israel.
There are literally 67 pages on this thread of posts criticising the actions of the IDF. No one has been accused of “anti Jewish sentiment” unless they’ve actually strayed into using antisemitic language. And those posts have usually been deleted by admin.
There is absolutely no reason for anyone to accuse you of “anti jewish sentiment”. You seem to have fallen into the trap of believing those who do repeat antisemitic tropes and then bleat “you can’t even criticise Israel without being accused of being an anti semite”. Which of course is absolute nonsense.
[Post edited 25 Mar 10:12]
What you say ought to be true, but there are examples of such views beginning regarded as antisemitic.
For example, the Israeli Foreign Minister (a member of Likud rather than any of the far right coalition partners) tweeted the other day that under the leadership of Secretary-General António Guterres, the United Nations has become “an antisemitic and anti-Israel body that shelters and emboldens terror”.
There are also examples of parts of the UK media trying to portray all marchers on the pro-Palestinian marches as antisemitic.
It seems to me it is things like this that may well make the poster think he has to tread carefully, especially given the fact that unlike you and me he may well not be as knowledgeable on this issue.
[Post edited 25 Mar 12:21]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:57 - Mar 25 with 684 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:42 - Mar 25 by DJR
Following on from the last two paragraphs, this is what Al Jazeera is currently reporting.
A UN Security Council resolution on a ceasefire in Gaza expected to be voted on later today has been worked on with the US to avoid a veto, according to diplomats speaking to the AFP news agency on condition of anonymity.
“We expect, barring a last-minute twist, that the resolution will be adopted and that the US will not vote against it,” one diplomat told AFP.
Last Friday, the Security Council voted on a draft submitted by the US that called for an “immediate” ceasefire linked to the release of captives. China and Russia vetoed the resolution, criticising it for stopping short of explicitly demanding Israel halt its campaign.
The US itself has vetoed three resolutions calling for a ceasefire in Gaza.
Earlier today, UN chief Guterres said the new resolution does not link the release of captives with calls for a ceasefire.
[Post edited 25 Mar 9:44]
UN security council passes resolution calling for ceasefire in Gaza after US abstains For the first time the UN security council has voted for a call for a ceasefire in Gaza, after the US abstained, rather than using its veto as it has done on previous occasions. Russia and China have also previously vetoed texts.
The resolution that passed was written by the 10 elected members to the council, and proposed in the chamber by Mozambique’s representative.
Russia attempted to amend the text by restoring it to an earlier draft which included the word “permanent”, but the bid failed.
14 members of the UN security council voted for the resolution, while the US abstained.
Israel’s prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu had earlier threatened to cancel a planned delegation to Washington if the US did not exercise its veto.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:15 - Mar 25 with 663 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:57 - Mar 25 by DJR
UN security council passes resolution calling for ceasefire in Gaza after US abstains For the first time the UN security council has voted for a call for a ceasefire in Gaza, after the US abstained, rather than using its veto as it has done on previous occasions. Russia and China have also previously vetoed texts.
The resolution that passed was written by the 10 elected members to the council, and proposed in the chamber by Mozambique’s representative.
Russia attempted to amend the text by restoring it to an earlier draft which included the word “permanent”, but the bid failed.
14 members of the UN security council voted for the resolution, while the US abstained.
Israel’s prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu had earlier threatened to cancel a planned delegation to Washington if the US did not exercise its veto.
And, predictably, disappointingly, shamefully, Netanyahu has gone ahead and cancelled his White House visit:
'Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has officially cancelled an Israeli delegation visit to the White House this week.'
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:12 - Mar 25 by DJR
What you say ought to be true, but there are examples of such views beginning regarded as antisemitic.
For example, the Israeli Foreign Minister (a member of Likud rather than any of the far right coalition partners) tweeted the other day that under the leadership of Secretary-General António Guterres, the United Nations has become “an antisemitic and anti-Israel body that shelters and emboldens terror”.
There are also examples of parts of the UK media trying to portray all marchers on the pro-Palestinian marches as antisemitic.
It seems to me it is things like this that may well make the poster think he has to tread carefully, especially given the fact that unlike you and me he may well not be as knowledgeable on this issue.
[Post edited 25 Mar 12:21]
Pretty much this. I wouldn't go as far as to say I wasn't knowledgable, but I have been cautious. Probably a little over cautious in not expressing a view as often as I perhaps should. This whole UN resolution and Netenyahu's cancelled visit is a significant turn of events that I will watch develop with interest.
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