| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. 11:39 - Nov 10 with 3037 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Let's say you're in your mid to late 30's to early 40's. With your lived experience of mass surveillance, restricted movement and oppression and seeing the continuing drift to the right in Israel, what would be your constructive response, with a realistic chance of leading to meaningful change, rather than resorting to violence? |  |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 19:47 - Nov 10 with 803 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:02 - Nov 10 by GlasgowBlue |
If only we had numerous threads about the subject that you could vent your feelings on. Then you wouldn't have had to start this one. |
In fairness, thread discipline has always been non existent on here. We do quantity, not quality. (Edit - that’s not fair, we do quantity and quality. There’s a lot of thoughtful posts on here). [Post edited 10 Nov 2023 19:48]
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 20:14 - Nov 10 with 761 views | jayessess |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 19:14 - Nov 10 by GlasgowBlue |
A Palestinian in Israel can become a member of the Knesset, a Judge, a police officer, a soldier and even the Captain of the Israel national football team. They can also hold hands and kiss another man in public. |
It certainly isn't true that Arab Palestinians are equal citizens in Israel, the Israeli Government has stated as much on multiple occasions. (Back in 2019 an actor got a bit carried away with the propaganda and tried to claim that "Israel was a democratic state of all its citizens" and it caused a massive furore, with the Prime Minister coming out to re-assure everybody that it wasn't).
Putting that two-tier citizenship issue aside for a second ... Arab Palestinians with Israeli citizenship are not particularly involved in anti-state violence, which rather shows how counter-productive the collective punishment and dispossession of Palestinians in the occupied territories has proven. Arab Palestinians, with even second-tier civil rights, not walled in behind fences and security towers, not routinely dispossessed of their homes and land, working and living everyday with Jews and Christians, broadly accepting of their lives in Israel (even if the governing parties treat their political representatives with the utmost contempt). Like post-GFA Republicans in Northern Ireland, people can live peacefully, even in constitutional arrangements that they fundamentally reject, if they are granted a degree of civil rights and dignity within that polity. |  |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 20:36 - Nov 10 with 725 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 20:14 - Nov 10 by jayessess |
It certainly isn't true that Arab Palestinians are equal citizens in Israel, the Israeli Government has stated as much on multiple occasions. (Back in 2019 an actor got a bit carried away with the propaganda and tried to claim that "Israel was a democratic state of all its citizens" and it caused a massive furore, with the Prime Minister coming out to re-assure everybody that it wasn't).
Putting that two-tier citizenship issue aside for a second ... Arab Palestinians with Israeli citizenship are not particularly involved in anti-state violence, which rather shows how counter-productive the collective punishment and dispossession of Palestinians in the occupied territories has proven. Arab Palestinians, with even second-tier civil rights, not walled in behind fences and security towers, not routinely dispossessed of their homes and land, working and living everyday with Jews and Christians, broadly accepting of their lives in Israel (even if the governing parties treat their political representatives with the utmost contempt). Like post-GFA Republicans in Northern Ireland, people can live peacefully, even in constitutional arrangements that they fundamentally reject, if they are granted a degree of civil rights and dignity within that polity. |
Interesting poll carried out last week.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-arab-minority-feels-closer-cou |  |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 20:38 - Nov 10 with 722 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 19:43 - Nov 10 by Kropotkin123 |
Imagine you have been born in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv
Let's say you're in your mid to late 30's to early 40's. With your lived experience of rockets being fired at you, Sponsorship of militant groups by Iran, people coming across the border and murdering innocent civilians in the thousands and seeing the continuing drift to the extremism in Gaza, what would be your constructive response, with a realistic chance of leading to meaningful change, rather than resorting to violence?
Don't think it surves us well to justify either side. Both sides have their rational and both sides have made decisions that contributed to this situation. |
I’m not sure people are trying (edited) to justify, more to understand. I must admit, I’m pretty confused by how selective the terrorist label is used. Hamas is easy to grasp, but why isn’t the same label applied to the Israeli govt? Ot to bring it closer to home with another example, we’ve committed horrible atrocities against civilians over the years. Why isn’t the UK govt held to the same standard as Hamas?
It seems that escaping the label of terrorist depends on which side of the tracks you were born. One man’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter (or defender of democracy), or whatever other excuse people dream up to justify killing innocent civilians. [Post edited 10 Nov 2023 21:12]
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 20:55 - Nov 10 with 685 views | ibbleobble |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 19:43 - Nov 10 by Kropotkin123 |
Imagine you have been born in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv
Let's say you're in your mid to late 30's to early 40's. With your lived experience of rockets being fired at you, Sponsorship of militant groups by Iran, people coming across the border and murdering innocent civilians in the thousands and seeing the continuing drift to the extremism in Gaza, what would be your constructive response, with a realistic chance of leading to meaningful change, rather than resorting to violence?
Don't think it surves us well to justify either side. Both sides have their rational and both sides have made decisions that contributed to this situation. |
I find it perplexing that the rhetoric of “sides” and “winning” has become a common language in discourse everywhere. It’s been the language of many right-wing spokespeople from day-1 so we should disassociate ourselves with that wherever possible. It’s also a bit distasteful to look at the atrocities from 7/10 as the focal point and ignore the fact that since 2008, 6,000 Palestinians have been killed snd 150,000 injured compared to 300 Israeli deaths, which has been common on many channels.
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
Palestinians in Gaza specifically have been forced into a barrel, monitored constantly and deprived of their right to function as a civil society without any prospect of ever becoming a self-sufficient entity or state - Israeli rule and it’s imposed controls defined this. It’s been a pressure cooker for so long it was inevitable it would explode. Gaza is obviously in no way comparable to a thriving, democratic, tourist destination like Tel Aviv. Israelis can physically escape proximity to a right-wing regime or vote for change; Palestinians in Gaza can’t escape a terrorist faction like Hamas and it’s indiscriminate choices. Agree it’s futile to compare as it serves no purpose but we should be cognisant of the gross imbalance that existed prior to October this year and be aware that Hamas have been allowed to grow stronger, which is at odds with what any peaceful, innocent Israeli and Palestinian civilian wanted.
To the OPs question, there is no resolution. Humanity is failing. Drawing up and diving lands has been done for hundreds of years and it’s not worked; integration has not worked, certainly not how it should; reparations will not suffice the deaths and eradication of family lineages; containment has failed too and a two state solution will be open to the same abuses. The scenes on screen every night are an apocalypse of our own action and inaction - no matter the outcome, history will repeat itself as it has done since the Romans displaced the Israelites because humans are an inherently limited species who don’t learn from the past. A ceasefire will occur. The dead will be buried. Asylum and migration will be debated and more factions, in time will spring up, re-arm and attempt to out shock their forefathers.
The idea of sides and winning is so illogical it would take a whole state to concede and leave their legacy for their to be any ‘win’ and that’s never going to happen. |  | | |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 21:05 - Nov 10 with 657 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 20:55 - Nov 10 by ibbleobble |
I find it perplexing that the rhetoric of “sides” and “winning” has become a common language in discourse everywhere. It’s been the language of many right-wing spokespeople from day-1 so we should disassociate ourselves with that wherever possible. It’s also a bit distasteful to look at the atrocities from 7/10 as the focal point and ignore the fact that since 2008, 6,000 Palestinians have been killed snd 150,000 injured compared to 300 Israeli deaths, which has been common on many channels.
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
Palestinians in Gaza specifically have been forced into a barrel, monitored constantly and deprived of their right to function as a civil society without any prospect of ever becoming a self-sufficient entity or state - Israeli rule and it’s imposed controls defined this. It’s been a pressure cooker for so long it was inevitable it would explode. Gaza is obviously in no way comparable to a thriving, democratic, tourist destination like Tel Aviv. Israelis can physically escape proximity to a right-wing regime or vote for change; Palestinians in Gaza can’t escape a terrorist faction like Hamas and it’s indiscriminate choices. Agree it’s futile to compare as it serves no purpose but we should be cognisant of the gross imbalance that existed prior to October this year and be aware that Hamas have been allowed to grow stronger, which is at odds with what any peaceful, innocent Israeli and Palestinian civilian wanted.
To the OPs question, there is no resolution. Humanity is failing. Drawing up and diving lands has been done for hundreds of years and it’s not worked; integration has not worked, certainly not how it should; reparations will not suffice the deaths and eradication of family lineages; containment has failed too and a two state solution will be open to the same abuses. The scenes on screen every night are an apocalypse of our own action and inaction - no matter the outcome, history will repeat itself as it has done since the Romans displaced the Israelites because humans are an inherently limited species who don’t learn from the past. A ceasefire will occur. The dead will be buried. Asylum and migration will be debated and more factions, in time will spring up, re-arm and attempt to out shock their forefathers.
The idea of sides and winning is so illogical it would take a whole state to concede and leave their legacy for their to be any ‘win’ and that’s never going to happen. |
The "win" is through dialogue and peace which appears as far away as it ever has been. It was the path to peace in Northern Ireland. |  |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 22:32 - Nov 10 with 592 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 19:35 - Nov 10 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Go with the West Bank then if you 're struggling to separate Gazan Palestinians from terrorists. Although it sounds as if you must have been there. |
You sound dumber by the day on here. Read your post and then read my response word for word and see how foolish your mental gymnastics look. Saying I am struggling to separate Gazan civilians and terrorists? I literally said living under a terrorist regime and described EXACTLY what Hamas do. No I could not imagine living like that.
By the way if your post was some kind of attempt to to justify violence against innocents or get a reaction, then shame on you. [Post edited 10 Nov 2023 22:35]
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 10:28 - Nov 11 with 411 views | MK1 |
I prefer to leave these kind of things to those who have the power to change it. Feel for them, but very little, if anything I can do about it. Don't think Israel give a sh1t about my thoughts if I'm being totally honest. |  |
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