| Over to you Keir 10:45 - Feb 12 with 10553 views | GlasgowBlue |
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| Over to you Keir on 21:19 - Feb 13 with 1751 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Over to you Keir on 20:27 - Feb 13 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Who cares, Starmer is looking tough and decisive (ish). We already knew he has no principles so it's all good. |
The previous leader was far more principled that the current incumbent, even if somewhat wayward. |  |
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| Over to you Keir on 21:33 - Feb 13 with 1731 views | Zx1988 |
| Over to you Keir on 20:46 - Feb 13 by GlasgowBlue |
I don't see any antisemitism in saying "Fcuk Israel". He dis go on to say that dual nationals who joined the IDF should be locked up but he is incorrect in his interpretation of the law. Dual nationals can join the IDF, and regardless how things have turned out in the Israeli/Palestine conflict, I think it is entirely understandable that dual nationals would want to fight for the IDF after the events of 7/10. Again, I don't think that statement is anti semitic. What is troubling is that Jones made this statement at the same meeting that Ali engaged in an anti semitic conspiracy theory.
Regarding Ali. I made my view very clear last night why I think Ali's comments were anti semitic. More importantly, Martin Forde, the man that even DarthKoont continually put up as the arbiter of what is and isn't anti semitic, stated that what Ali said was anti semitic and that "there's no coming back from comments like that". |
Was Forde referring to any of Ali's comments in particular?
I'd agree that there's absolutely no argument that his second set of comments about "certain Jewish quarters" are as heinous as they come.
I'd struggle to see how broader comments about a political regime responding to intelligence in a way that suits their broader goals could be considered as such a cut-and-dried example. |  |
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| Over to you Keir on 21:38 - Feb 13 with 1728 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Over to you Keir on 21:33 - Feb 13 by Zx1988 |
Was Forde referring to any of Ali's comments in particular?
I'd agree that there's absolutely no argument that his second set of comments about "certain Jewish quarters" are as heinous as they come.
I'd struggle to see how broader comments about a political regime responding to intelligence in a way that suits their broader goals could be considered as such a cut-and-dried example. |
It's a conspiracy. Ali has no idea how Israel responded to intelligence or whether there was any intelligence.
He engaged in a conspiracy that was just another take on the two millenia old trope of Jews as bloodthirsty and secretly collaborating behind the scenes nefarious ends. This reversal of Jews as victims to Jews as perpetrators, that makes it anti-Semitic.
It reverses Jews from victims to perpetrators. | |
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| Over to you Keir on 22:08 - Feb 13 with 1708 views | Zx1988 |
| Over to you Keir on 21:38 - Feb 13 by GlasgowBlue |
It's a conspiracy. Ali has no idea how Israel responded to intelligence or whether there was any intelligence.
He engaged in a conspiracy that was just another take on the two millenia old trope of Jews as bloodthirsty and secretly collaborating behind the scenes nefarious ends. This reversal of Jews as victims to Jews as perpetrators, that makes it anti-Semitic.
It reverses Jews from victims to perpetrators. |
This is the sort of bit that I'll freely admit that I struggle to get my head around.
Does this therefore mean that any allegation of conspiracy leveled against the state of Israel cannot be seen as anything other than antisemitic, regardless of how well founded (or not) it may be?
It's hardly as if Israel stands alone in being the subject of conspiracy theories. It seems to me that there have been a fair number of terrorist incidents around the world that have been followed up by suggestions that those in charge knew enough to take more action than they did. I know that 9/11 is one example, and I'm sure that I've heard similar murmurings about 7/7 in the past as well.
How does one denote a difference between stating these things "because it's the sort of sh*tty underhand, shady, cloak-and-dagger shenanigans that Western governments get up to", and other instances where it's clearly only being said "because it's the Jews, innit"? | |
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| Over to you Keir on 07:37 - Feb 14 with 1619 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Over to you Keir on 22:08 - Feb 13 by Zx1988 |
This is the sort of bit that I'll freely admit that I struggle to get my head around.
Does this therefore mean that any allegation of conspiracy leveled against the state of Israel cannot be seen as anything other than antisemitic, regardless of how well founded (or not) it may be?
It's hardly as if Israel stands alone in being the subject of conspiracy theories. It seems to me that there have been a fair number of terrorist incidents around the world that have been followed up by suggestions that those in charge knew enough to take more action than they did. I know that 9/11 is one example, and I'm sure that I've heard similar murmurings about 7/7 in the past as well.
How does one denote a difference between stating these things "because it's the sort of sh*tty underhand, shady, cloak-and-dagger shenanigans that Western governments get up to", and other instances where it's clearly only being said "because it's the Jews, innit"? |
And a lot of those conspiracies (especially 9/11) also involved Israel, completely unfounded and without evidence of course.
In this instance however, a few media outlets (I think I read it in the Economist) reported not long after the Hamas attack that officials in Egypt and the US had passed warnings to Israel of a potential attack. I believe they were only word of mouth reports to the media so probably without solid foundation. Nonetheless, that raises questions about the suspension. It’s possible that these reports have subsequently been quashed and I’ve missed it. | | | |
| Over to you Keir on 08:15 - Feb 14 with 1581 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Over to you Keir on 07:37 - Feb 14 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
And a lot of those conspiracies (especially 9/11) also involved Israel, completely unfounded and without evidence of course.
In this instance however, a few media outlets (I think I read it in the Economist) reported not long after the Hamas attack that officials in Egypt and the US had passed warnings to Israel of a potential attack. I believe they were only word of mouth reports to the media so probably without solid foundation. Nonetheless, that raises questions about the suspension. It’s possible that these reports have subsequently been quashed and I’ve missed it. |
As I’ve previously explained in this thread. The issue isn’t whether Israeli intelligence was warned of a planned attack or not. It’s that, in Azar Ali’s words “ Azhar Ali, “They deliberately took the security off, they allowed that massacre that gives them the green light to do whatever they bloody want.”
Deliberately allowing the slaughter, rape and mutilation of 1200 of their own people in order to invade Gaza is another twist on the caricature of Jews as bloodthirsty and secretly collaborating behind the scenes that has been used in all sorts of different scenarios over two millennia. This reversal of Jews as victims to Jews as perpetrators, that makes it anti-Semitic.
It couldn’t be that, if true about the warnings, that the intel engine officer was bloody incompetent or arrogant in his or her estimation of the threat. It’s that “Israel” let their own people die for nefarious reasons. | |
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| Over to you Keir on 09:22 - Feb 14 with 1525 views | NthQldITFC |
| Over to you Keir on 22:08 - Feb 13 by Zx1988 |
This is the sort of bit that I'll freely admit that I struggle to get my head around.
Does this therefore mean that any allegation of conspiracy leveled against the state of Israel cannot be seen as anything other than antisemitic, regardless of how well founded (or not) it may be?
It's hardly as if Israel stands alone in being the subject of conspiracy theories. It seems to me that there have been a fair number of terrorist incidents around the world that have been followed up by suggestions that those in charge knew enough to take more action than they did. I know that 9/11 is one example, and I'm sure that I've heard similar murmurings about 7/7 in the past as well.
How does one denote a difference between stating these things "because it's the sort of sh*tty underhand, shady, cloak-and-dagger shenanigans that Western governments get up to", and other instances where it's clearly only being said "because it's the Jews, innit"? |
Me too. I've been struggling to compare this in my mind, not that there's any real kind of direct parallel, with the situation between Russia and Ukraine, and with things like false flag attacks.
At the moment all I see (in the remarks that initially reported anyway) is an ill-informed, or perhaps totally uninformed, conspiracy theory expanded from the suggestion of ignored intelligence, the sort of thing that is constantly propagated by 'supporters' of all 'sides' in all conflicts. |  |
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| Over to you Keir on 09:47 - Feb 14 with 1459 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Over to you Keir on 21:38 - Feb 13 by GlasgowBlue |
It's a conspiracy. Ali has no idea how Israel responded to intelligence or whether there was any intelligence.
He engaged in a conspiracy that was just another take on the two millenia old trope of Jews as bloodthirsty and secretly collaborating behind the scenes nefarious ends. This reversal of Jews as victims to Jews as perpetrators, that makes it anti-Semitic.
It reverses Jews from victims to perpetrators. |
Not only has there been no denial that warnings were given by Egypt and the US, but there is also this showing that warnings were being ignored within the military some 6 months before...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/28/israeli-military-had-warning-of-ha |  |
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| Over to you Keir on 10:39 - Feb 14 with 1395 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Over to you Keir on 09:22 - Feb 14 by NthQldITFC |
Me too. I've been struggling to compare this in my mind, not that there's any real kind of direct parallel, with the situation between Russia and Ukraine, and with things like false flag attacks.
At the moment all I see (in the remarks that initially reported anyway) is an ill-informed, or perhaps totally uninformed, conspiracy theory expanded from the suggestion of ignored intelligence, the sort of thing that is constantly propagated by 'supporters' of all 'sides' in all conflicts. |
Well I've explained why it anti semitic at least five times on this thread and you haven't once addressed the points made but simply joined in the "well I don't see the antisemitism" mob. A Jewish poster who has written a very emotional and powerful article he shared about antisemitism after 7/10 has explained why the conspiracy is anti semitic. Why do people keep telling Jews what is and what isn't anti semitic. Would people lecture any other ethnic group what is and what isn't racism against them?
Maybe I can put it in more simplistic footballing terms. You know when a black player has an off day on the pitch. He could be carrying an injury. He could be having a bad day at the office. He could simply be rubbish. But guess what? The majority of comments will involve tropes about him being lazy. [Post edited 14 Feb 2024 10:43]
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| Over to you Keir on 10:48 - Feb 14 with 1356 views | Blueschev |
| Over to you Keir on 10:39 - Feb 14 by GlasgowBlue |
Well I've explained why it anti semitic at least five times on this thread and you haven't once addressed the points made but simply joined in the "well I don't see the antisemitism" mob. A Jewish poster who has written a very emotional and powerful article he shared about antisemitism after 7/10 has explained why the conspiracy is anti semitic. Why do people keep telling Jews what is and what isn't anti semitic. Would people lecture any other ethnic group what is and what isn't racism against them?
Maybe I can put it in more simplistic footballing terms. You know when a black player has an off day on the pitch. He could be carrying an injury. He could be having a bad day at the office. He could simply be rubbish. But guess what? The majority of comments will involve tropes about him being lazy. [Post edited 14 Feb 2024 10:43]
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So if a black player was lazy, you couldn't say so because it could be seen as racist? That makes no sense. I don't doubt that some people use that trope to express their own prejudice, but it could also be true that the player isn't putting in the effort. It's all about context.
Also, why do you have to refer to people disagreeing with you as a mob? I don't see anyone being aggressive or offensive. They just don't see things as you do. |  | | |
| Over to you Keir on 13:53 - Feb 14 with 1284 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Over to you Keir on 10:39 - Feb 14 by GlasgowBlue |
Well I've explained why it anti semitic at least five times on this thread and you haven't once addressed the points made but simply joined in the "well I don't see the antisemitism" mob. A Jewish poster who has written a very emotional and powerful article he shared about antisemitism after 7/10 has explained why the conspiracy is anti semitic. Why do people keep telling Jews what is and what isn't anti semitic. Would people lecture any other ethnic group what is and what isn't racism against them?
Maybe I can put it in more simplistic footballing terms. You know when a black player has an off day on the pitch. He could be carrying an injury. He could be having a bad day at the office. He could simply be rubbish. But guess what? The majority of comments will involve tropes about him being lazy. [Post edited 14 Feb 2024 10:43]
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You actually suggested that it was antisemitic because it was following a conspiracy but there has been no denial about warnings including 6 months earlier within the IDF. So I do not even see it as based in conspiracy and even if it was that would not equate to antisemitism in the way you have suggested imho.
The mistake he made was to suggest that Israel knew that any attack on the fence would be successful in breaking through and the results. I would like to see the full quote though as the only one I have seen includes some "......." s which might be interesting in adding context or maybe not! | |
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| Over to you Keir on 14:19 - Feb 14 with 1273 views | Zx1988 |
| Over to you Keir on 10:39 - Feb 14 by GlasgowBlue |
Well I've explained why it anti semitic at least five times on this thread and you haven't once addressed the points made but simply joined in the "well I don't see the antisemitism" mob. A Jewish poster who has written a very emotional and powerful article he shared about antisemitism after 7/10 has explained why the conspiracy is anti semitic. Why do people keep telling Jews what is and what isn't anti semitic. Would people lecture any other ethnic group what is and what isn't racism against them?
Maybe I can put it in more simplistic footballing terms. You know when a black player has an off day on the pitch. He could be carrying an injury. He could be having a bad day at the office. He could simply be rubbish. But guess what? The majority of comments will involve tropes about him being lazy. [Post edited 14 Feb 2024 10:43]
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I'm still struggling to see how it is antisemitic to be critical of the State of Israel in this way.
What if, during all the issues with Chechnya, the Russian security services had been accused of 'overlooking' intelligence surrounding a Chechnyan attack on Russian interests, because a (semi-)successful Chechnyan attack would serve their purposes better than would have been done by successfully foiling said attack?
As others have pointed out, there are similar beliefs surrounding the sinking of the Lusitania during the Great War.
Governments have used their citizens as pawns for their own bidding since time immemorial. I cannot see anything antisemitic in suggesting that it is not beyond the wit of reason that the Israeli Government felt that (not that I'm suggesting for one minute that they maybe knew the full extent of what had been planned on 7th October) allowing Hamas action to take place might serve their purposes better than preventing it happening in its entirety.
It is the same sort of question that would be asked of any Government, regardless of its race/creed/ethnicity, if it was later reported that crucial intelligence had been ignored/overlooked.
I agree that the State of Israel should not be held to higher standards than any other country, but it seems to be that this is being interpreted to suggest that we cannot even accuse the Israeli Government of being anything other than whiter than white. | |
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| Over to you Keir on 14:45 - Feb 14 with 1247 views | positivity |
| Over to you Keir on 13:53 - Feb 14 by BanksterDebtSlave |
You actually suggested that it was antisemitic because it was following a conspiracy but there has been no denial about warnings including 6 months earlier within the IDF. So I do not even see it as based in conspiracy and even if it was that would not equate to antisemitism in the way you have suggested imho.
The mistake he made was to suggest that Israel knew that any attack on the fence would be successful in breaking through and the results. I would like to see the full quote though as the only one I have seen includes some "......." s which might be interesting in adding context or maybe not! |
the conspiracy theory is fairly evident, it's not that warnings were given and not acted upon/not taken seriously.
it's that warnings were given and wilful actions were taken to encourage the attacks (eg reducing security) so that the attacks would be successful and they'd have a pretext for attacking gaza in massive way.
i'm still not certain on the anti-semitic angle though, if you substitute israel for iran, does that make it an islamophobic conspiracy theory or an anti-iranian government conspiracy theory? | |
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| Over to you Keir on 16:48 - Feb 14 with 1164 views | NthQldITFC |
| Over to you Keir on 10:39 - Feb 14 by GlasgowBlue |
Well I've explained why it anti semitic at least five times on this thread and you haven't once addressed the points made but simply joined in the "well I don't see the antisemitism" mob. A Jewish poster who has written a very emotional and powerful article he shared about antisemitism after 7/10 has explained why the conspiracy is anti semitic. Why do people keep telling Jews what is and what isn't anti semitic. Would people lecture any other ethnic group what is and what isn't racism against them?
Maybe I can put it in more simplistic footballing terms. You know when a black player has an off day on the pitch. He could be carrying an injury. He could be having a bad day at the office. He could simply be rubbish. But guess what? The majority of comments will involve tropes about him being lazy. [Post edited 14 Feb 2024 10:43]
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I'm not going to take your response personally at all, and I appreciate that you are probably far better informed across the breadth of this horrific situation than I am, but I'm not one for joining any kind of mob.
It seems to me firstly that it is fairly well-established that warnings were given and ignored, and that secondly the idea that this was a deliberate disregarding and calculated to provide a casus belli is the sort of conspiracy theory-driven accusation that could be erroneously or maliciously directed at any party in a war or a smaller conflict, irrespective of race or religion.
In general, there is of course the danger of undermining one's cause by overstating or misinterpreting things, which applies to every bloody state, business and individual these days as far as I can see. The JLM request to suspend everybody who heard these comments but didn't speak up at the time also worries me.
I don't think anybody here is referring, hinting, or in a any way alluding to the sort of repulsive tropes you mention. My personal belief is that the initial comments were stupid but not anti-Semitic, however they're just my personal beliefs which I accept might be not fully informed, and I appreciate that you're facing a lot of opposition on this so I won't challenge you any further on it. Peace, brother. | |
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| Over to you Keir on 17:05 - Feb 14 with 1140 views | MattinLondon |
| Over to you Keir on 10:39 - Feb 14 by GlasgowBlue |
Well I've explained why it anti semitic at least five times on this thread and you haven't once addressed the points made but simply joined in the "well I don't see the antisemitism" mob. A Jewish poster who has written a very emotional and powerful article he shared about antisemitism after 7/10 has explained why the conspiracy is anti semitic. Why do people keep telling Jews what is and what isn't anti semitic. Would people lecture any other ethnic group what is and what isn't racism against them?
Maybe I can put it in more simplistic footballing terms. You know when a black player has an off day on the pitch. He could be carrying an injury. He could be having a bad day at the office. He could simply be rubbish. But guess what? The majority of comments will involve tropes about him being lazy. [Post edited 14 Feb 2024 10:43]
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Just because you think it’s antisemitism it doesn’t actually mean that it is. You don’t have a monopoly on what is, and what isn’t racism. |  | | |
| Over to you Keir on 18:36 - Feb 14 with 1079 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Over to you Keir on 17:05 - Feb 14 by MattinLondon |
Just because you think it’s antisemitism it doesn’t actually mean that it is. You don’t have a monopoly on what is, and what isn’t racism. |
If only it was just me saying it was antisemitism rather than The Jewish Labour Movement, the spokesman for the Labour party, The Campaign Against Antisemitism, Martin Forde KC (the man who Koonters touted on here as the arbiter of what is an what isn't antisemitism), The Board of Deputies of British Jews, The Jewish Chronicle, The Jewish News and just about anybody who understands what antisemitic tropes are. [Post edited 14 Feb 2024 18:45]
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