| Over to you Keir 10:45 - Feb 12 with 10545 views | GlasgowBlue |
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| Over to you Keir on 17:26 - Feb 12 with 1911 views | positivity |
| Over to you Keir on 17:17 - Feb 12 by GlasgowBlue |
He made the comments at a meeting of the Lancashire Labour Party soon after the 7/10 masacre. He was selected as the Labour candidate on just two weeks ago. |
what date was the meeting? times' paywall has come crashing down! |  |
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| Over to you Keir on 17:27 - Feb 12 with 1906 views | positivity |
| Over to you Keir on 17:25 - Feb 12 by GlasgowBlue |
We have somebody spouting age old anti-Semitic tropes, and people seemingly can't recognise them. FFS. |
what's the trope in this instance? | |
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| Over to you Keir on 17:32 - Feb 12 with 1874 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Over to you Keir on 17:27 - Feb 12 by positivity |
what's the trope in this instance? |
The antisemitism comes from the fact that Israel definitely knew an attack was coming and DELIBERATELY allowed it, so that they could destroy Gaza.
It's just another take on the caricature of Jews as bloodthirsty and secretly collaborating behind the scenes that has been used in all sorts of different scenarios over two millennia. This reversal of Jews as victims to Jews as perpetrators, that makes it anti-Semitic.
It reverses Jews from victims to perpetrators. [Post edited 12 Feb 2024 17:35]
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| Over to you Keir on 17:39 - Feb 12 with 1837 views | positivity |
| Over to you Keir on 17:32 - Feb 12 by GlasgowBlue |
The antisemitism comes from the fact that Israel definitely knew an attack was coming and DELIBERATELY allowed it, so that they could destroy Gaza.
It's just another take on the caricature of Jews as bloodthirsty and secretly collaborating behind the scenes that has been used in all sorts of different scenarios over two millennia. This reversal of Jews as victims to Jews as perpetrators, that makes it anti-Semitic.
It reverses Jews from victims to perpetrators. [Post edited 12 Feb 2024 17:35]
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ok, thanks, clearly a conspiracy theory. i can see how it can be construed as anti-semitism.
how does it differ from people saying netanyahu deliberately bolstered hamas in gaza to divide the palestinians and weaken fatah? | |
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| Over to you Keir on 17:41 - Feb 12 with 1825 views | Blueschev |
| Over to you Keir on 17:39 - Feb 12 by positivity |
ok, thanks, clearly a conspiracy theory. i can see how it can be construed as anti-semitism.
how does it differ from people saying netanyahu deliberately bolstered hamas in gaza to divide the palestinians and weaken fatah? |
Because the latter is demonstrably true. |  | | |
| Over to you Keir on 17:42 - Feb 12 with 1812 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Over to you Keir on 17:17 - Feb 12 by GlasgowBlue |
He made the comments at a meeting of the Lancashire Labour Party soon after the 7/10 masacre. He was selected as the Labour candidate on just two weeks ago. |
Why have the comments only emerged now then? Something doesn't add up. If they were out in public then, rather than now, I'm sure with all the furore he wouldn't have been selected. Starmer isn't stupid. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Over to you Keir on 17:42 - Feb 12 with 1813 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Over to you Keir on 17:39 - Feb 12 by positivity |
ok, thanks, clearly a conspiracy theory. i can see how it can be construed as anti-semitism.
how does it differ from people saying netanyahu deliberately bolstered hamas in gaza to divide the palestinians and weaken fatah? |
Netanyahu is an individual and as I understand it there is truth to that statement. It's not a conspiracy. | |
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| Over to you Keir on 17:44 - Feb 12 with 1798 views | MattinLondon |
| Over to you Keir on 17:13 - Feb 12 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I have asked that a couple of times too. It does indeed seem that it can be used pretty much at will now with all the emotive implications that come with it. Fancy!
Edit...from what I can tell there is no denial that Israel was warned about the attack days in advance by Egypt and the US, so I can only presume that it is the inference he took that therefore Nethanyahoo and his right wing allies ignored the warnings for their own personal and political motives that is being called out as antisemitic. Hopefully somebody will explain to me how. [Post edited 12 Feb 2024 17:17]
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Sweeping all criticism of Israel under the brush of antisemitism is both lazy and unhelpful. Historically, antisemitism has been prominent and has led to a huge amount of suffering and extreme heartache. But not all criticism of Israel has roots in antisemitism- some of it, has grown out of disgust of the actions of the IDF as well as by some Israeli settlers.
Isreal, like all nations, is far from perfect and if it has questions to answer regarding what it knew about that attack has to be answered. Just staring antisemitism won’t do anyone any good. |  | | |
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| Over to you Keir on 17:45 - Feb 12 with 1796 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Over to you Keir on 17:42 - Feb 12 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Why have the comments only emerged now then? Something doesn't add up. If they were out in public then, rather than now, I'm sure with all the furore he wouldn't have been selected. Starmer isn't stupid. |
No idea. But he made the statement last year at a Labour party meeting and he was selected as a candidate ljut last month after the death of the sitting Labour MP for Rochdale, Sir Tony Lloyd.
Starmer doesn't select candidates. It's done at a local level. | |
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| Over to you Keir on 17:46 - Feb 12 with 1797 views | pointofblue |
| Over to you Keir on 17:32 - Feb 12 by GlasgowBlue |
The antisemitism comes from the fact that Israel definitely knew an attack was coming and DELIBERATELY allowed it, so that they could destroy Gaza.
It's just another take on the caricature of Jews as bloodthirsty and secretly collaborating behind the scenes that has been used in all sorts of different scenarios over two millennia. This reversal of Jews as victims to Jews as perpetrators, that makes it anti-Semitic.
It reverses Jews from victims to perpetrators. [Post edited 12 Feb 2024 17:35]
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It's the Israeli government - or in particular Netanyahu - who is being accused of this, rather than every Jew. And would I put it past him, considering the state of weakness he was in, under pressure from the judiciary for his actions? No, especially as this has been widely reported in the respectable press, albeit dismissed by the Netanyahu.
Of course, Hamas did it off their own back. If they hadn't have acted then it wouldn't have happened, security or no security. They are responsible for their actions. But I'm not going to dismiss out of hand Netanyahu taking advantage of their plans for his own gain - much like the theory that the British government withdrew protection for the Lusitania in World War I, to open up the opportunity of a U-Boat attack to draw America into the war. | |
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| Over to you Keir on 17:49 - Feb 12 with 1779 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Over to you Keir on 17:44 - Feb 12 by MattinLondon |
Sweeping all criticism of Israel under the brush of antisemitism is both lazy and unhelpful. Historically, antisemitism has been prominent and has led to a huge amount of suffering and extreme heartache. But not all criticism of Israel has roots in antisemitism- some of it, has grown out of disgust of the actions of the IDF as well as by some Israeli settlers.
Isreal, like all nations, is far from perfect and if it has questions to answer regarding what it knew about that attack has to be answered. Just staring antisemitism won’t do anyone any good. |
I honestly think you need to get yourself educated on the use of antisemitic tropes over the centuries and how they have been used in contemporary times.
Legitimate criticism of the Israeli state is not anti semitic. Engaging in conspiracy theories that evoke centuries old tropes about untrustworthy Jews is.
The fact that supposedly intelligent people don't recognise these tropes when discussing the stater of Israel is deeply concerning. | |
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| Over to you Keir on 17:57 - Feb 12 with 1745 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Over to you Keir on 17:49 - Feb 12 by GlasgowBlue |
I honestly think you need to get yourself educated on the use of antisemitic tropes over the centuries and how they have been used in contemporary times.
Legitimate criticism of the Israeli state is not anti semitic. Engaging in conspiracy theories that evoke centuries old tropes about untrustworthy Jews is.
The fact that supposedly intelligent people don't recognise these tropes when discussing the stater of Israel is deeply concerning. |
Is Netanyahu trustworthy?
If the answer is no, is it an antisemitic trope to suggest that he isn't?
I think that sometimes you jump to an assumption that there is an antisemitic intent when it isn't clear that there is. |  |
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| Over to you Keir on 18:00 - Feb 12 with 1730 views | MattinLondon |
| Over to you Keir on 17:49 - Feb 12 by GlasgowBlue |
I honestly think you need to get yourself educated on the use of antisemitic tropes over the centuries and how they have been used in contemporary times.
Legitimate criticism of the Israeli state is not anti semitic. Engaging in conspiracy theories that evoke centuries old tropes about untrustworthy Jews is.
The fact that supposedly intelligent people don't recognise these tropes when discussing the stater of Israel is deeply concerning. |
Thank you very much for the history lesson but I’m not sure that that is relevant on this point.
If Isreal were warned about an impending Hamas attack by other countries intelligent agencies and didn’t look into reports of concerning behaviour by Hamas on its border (by its own soldiers) then questions start to be asked. It has nothing to do with conspiracy theories based on antisemitism but simply a reaction to Israeli non-action prior to Hamas brutal attacks. | | | |
| Over to you Keir on 18:01 - Feb 12 with 1725 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Over to you Keir on 17:21 - Feb 12 by positivity |
i'm only guessing, but the implication that netanyahu knew AND then took border guards away from their posts tips it into conspiracy theory for me.
as to the anti-semitism angle, people with more expertise than me can let us know, please! |
I haven’t seen any suggestion that guards were taken away. Apparently the border fence used robot operated automatic machine guns! I hadn't realised that conspiracies equated to antisemitism. |  |
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| Over to you Keir on 18:02 - Feb 12 with 1727 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Over to you Keir on 17:57 - Feb 12 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Is Netanyahu trustworthy?
If the answer is no, is it an antisemitic trope to suggest that he isn't?
I think that sometimes you jump to an assumption that there is an antisemitic intent when it isn't clear that there is. |
I think I'll leave this conversation before I say something I'll regret. The Labour candidate has admitted what he said was anti semitic and has apologised. Every mainstream media report says it was antisemitic. I suggest you educate yourself on antisemitic tropes. Especially if you teach at a school with Jewish students.
I'll leave it there. | |
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| Over to you Keir on 18:09 - Feb 12 with 1696 views | positivity |
| Over to you Keir on 18:01 - Feb 12 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I haven’t seen any suggestion that guards were taken away. Apparently the border fence used robot operated automatic machine guns! I hadn't realised that conspiracies equated to antisemitism. |
maybe not guards, the exact quote was “Americans warned them a day before [that] … there’s something happening. They deliberately took the security off, they allowed … that massacre that gives them the green light to do whatever they bloody want.” | |
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| Over to you Keir on 18:11 - Feb 12 with 1696 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Over to you Keir on 18:02 - Feb 12 by GlasgowBlue |
I think I'll leave this conversation before I say something I'll regret. The Labour candidate has admitted what he said was anti semitic and has apologised. Every mainstream media report says it was antisemitic. I suggest you educate yourself on antisemitic tropes. Especially if you teach at a school with Jewish students.
I'll leave it there. |
I was unaware that he had admitted and apologised for being antisemitic.
Certainly I am learning about them and should I see anything I considered to be or had anything reported to me that someone felt was, I would pass it on whether I thought it was or not - it is not my place to judge the intent.
Part of the education is engaging and asking the questions. | |
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| Over to you Keir on 18:11 - Feb 12 with 1696 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Over to you Keir on 17:32 - Feb 12 by GlasgowBlue |
The antisemitism comes from the fact that Israel definitely knew an attack was coming and DELIBERATELY allowed it, so that they could destroy Gaza.
It's just another take on the caricature of Jews as bloodthirsty and secretly collaborating behind the scenes that has been used in all sorts of different scenarios over two millennia. This reversal of Jews as victims to Jews as perpetrators, that makes it anti-Semitic.
It reverses Jews from victims to perpetrators. [Post edited 12 Feb 2024 17:35]
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You've jumped through a few hoops there to be fair. Who is to say what their motive was for ignoring the warnings because they haven’t denied being told. Perhaps a contained border incident would have been a suitable distraction politically and enabled some grand standing but they had too much faith in their largely unmanned fence.
Your second paragraph is entirely your own spin on things as even his extreme take on events was levelled at Nethanyahoo and his government rather than Jews. So you seem to be conflating things in order to make the label stick. | |
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| Over to you Keir on 18:14 - Feb 12 with 1686 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Over to you Keir on 18:00 - Feb 12 by MattinLondon |
Thank you very much for the history lesson but I’m not sure that that is relevant on this point.
If Isreal were warned about an impending Hamas attack by other countries intelligent agencies and didn’t look into reports of concerning behaviour by Hamas on its border (by its own soldiers) then questions start to be asked. It has nothing to do with conspiracy theories based on antisemitism but simply a reaction to Israeli non-action prior to Hamas brutal attacks. |
Are you deliberately being disingenuous? The accusation isn't that Israel ignored foreign intelligence agencies warnings about an imminent attack. That would be an accusation of sheer bloody incompetence.
It's the conspiracy that the Israelis allowed the attacks to go ahead, knowing that thousands of their own people would be slaughtered, as a pretence to invade Gaza.
I've explained it to you and you';ve cherrypicked the part you want without addressing the conspiracy. I'll explain it again.
"The antisemitism comes from the fact that Israel definitely knew an attack was coming and DELIBERATELY allowed it, so that they could destroy Gaza.
It's just another take on the caricature of Jews as bloodthirsty and secretly collaborating behind the scenes that has been used in all sorts of different scenarios over two millennia. This reversal of Jews as victims to Jews as perpetrators, that makes it anti-Semitic.
It reverses Jews from victims to perpetrators. | |
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| Over to you Keir on 18:15 - Feb 12 with 1680 views | positivity |
| Over to you Keir on 18:02 - Feb 12 by GlasgowBlue |
I think I'll leave this conversation before I say something I'll regret. The Labour candidate has admitted what he said was anti semitic and has apologised. Every mainstream media report says it was antisemitic. I suggest you educate yourself on antisemitic tropes. Especially if you teach at a school with Jewish students.
I'll leave it there. |
i saw the full apology, i didn't see him saying it was anti-semitism.
i think the full apology and the character backing of louise ellman, should draw a line. even mike katz (who won't campaign for him) doesn't want him dropped as a labour candidate as it just gives a free run to george galloway, whose anti-semitism runs much deeper! [Post edited 12 Feb 2024 18:19]
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| Over to you Keir on 18:17 - Feb 12 with 1670 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Over to you Keir on 18:15 - Feb 12 by positivity |
i saw the full apology, i didn't see him saying it was anti-semitism.
i think the full apology and the character backing of louise ellman, should draw a line. even mike katz (who won't campaign for him) doesn't want him dropped as a labour candidate as it just gives a free run to george galloway, whose anti-semitism runs much deeper! [Post edited 12 Feb 2024 18:19]
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Do you have a link to the apology?
I am confused. GB said he admitted being antisemitic. | |
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| Over to you Keir on 18:21 - Feb 12 with 1650 views | positivity |
| Over to you Keir on 18:17 - Feb 12 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Do you have a link to the apology?
I am confused. GB said he admitted being antisemitic. |
from the guardian:-
"Ali, a Lancashire county councillor and former government adviser who was made an OBE in 2020 for public service, has since apologised “unreservedly to the Jewish community” for the comments, which he acknowledged were “deeply offensive, ignorant and false”.
He said: “Hamas’s horrific terror attack was the responsibility of Hamas alone, and they are still holding hostages who must be released.”
He promised to “urgently apologise to Jewish leaders for my inexcusable comments”, saying that “the Labour party has changed unrecognisably under Keir Starmer’s leadership”."
but that doesn't say glasgow is wrong, there may be a fuller transcript elsewhere that i haven't seen | |
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| Over to you Keir on 18:23 - Feb 12 with 1642 views | MattinLondon |
| Over to you Keir on 18:14 - Feb 12 by GlasgowBlue |
Are you deliberately being disingenuous? The accusation isn't that Israel ignored foreign intelligence agencies warnings about an imminent attack. That would be an accusation of sheer bloody incompetence.
It's the conspiracy that the Israelis allowed the attacks to go ahead, knowing that thousands of their own people would be slaughtered, as a pretence to invade Gaza.
I've explained it to you and you';ve cherrypicked the part you want without addressing the conspiracy. I'll explain it again.
"The antisemitism comes from the fact that Israel definitely knew an attack was coming and DELIBERATELY allowed it, so that they could destroy Gaza.
It's just another take on the caricature of Jews as bloodthirsty and secretly collaborating behind the scenes that has been used in all sorts of different scenarios over two millennia. This reversal of Jews as victims to Jews as perpetrators, that makes it anti-Semitic.
It reverses Jews from victims to perpetrators. |
I’ll take no lessons from you regarding being disingenuous and cherry picking as your posting history is littered with such examples.
You come across as a decent fella but your overinflated ego knows no bounds. You probably still think that your ex-girlfriends still fancy you - they don’t.
It’s impossible to have a conversation with you on some subjects as you’ll simply try to steer the conversation to fit into your narrative with dug up quotes from years ago.
I’ll bid you good day. | | | |
| Over to you Keir on 18:24 - Feb 12 with 1634 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Over to you Keir on 18:21 - Feb 12 by positivity |
from the guardian:-
"Ali, a Lancashire county councillor and former government adviser who was made an OBE in 2020 for public service, has since apologised “unreservedly to the Jewish community” for the comments, which he acknowledged were “deeply offensive, ignorant and false”.
He said: “Hamas’s horrific terror attack was the responsibility of Hamas alone, and they are still holding hostages who must be released.”
He promised to “urgently apologise to Jewish leaders for my inexcusable comments”, saying that “the Labour party has changed unrecognisably under Keir Starmer’s leadership”."
but that doesn't say glasgow is wrong, there may be a fuller transcript elsewhere that i haven't seen |
To be fair to GB, "apologised “unreservedly to the Jewish community” for the comments, which he acknowledged were “deeply offensive, ignorant and false”." is the same as antisemitic surely?
EDIT: although, GB being aware of the apology before posting "Over to you, Keir", presumably means that he doesn't accept the apology and doesn't think Starmer should either too. [Post edited 12 Feb 2024 18:30]
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| Over to you Keir on 18:26 - Feb 12 with 1623 views | positivity |
| Over to you Keir on 18:14 - Feb 12 by GlasgowBlue |
Are you deliberately being disingenuous? The accusation isn't that Israel ignored foreign intelligence agencies warnings about an imminent attack. That would be an accusation of sheer bloody incompetence.
It's the conspiracy that the Israelis allowed the attacks to go ahead, knowing that thousands of their own people would be slaughtered, as a pretence to invade Gaza.
I've explained it to you and you';ve cherrypicked the part you want without addressing the conspiracy. I'll explain it again.
"The antisemitism comes from the fact that Israel definitely knew an attack was coming and DELIBERATELY allowed it, so that they could destroy Gaza.
It's just another take on the caricature of Jews as bloodthirsty and secretly collaborating behind the scenes that has been used in all sorts of different scenarios over two millennia. This reversal of Jews as victims to Jews as perpetrators, that makes it anti-Semitic.
It reverses Jews from victims to perpetrators. |
but i don't see how that differs materially from netanyahu's corroborated bloodthirsty quotes or his corroborated quotes about bolstering hamas at the expense of gazan palestinians and any israeli jews that came into range of its rockets?
it's definitely a stupid thing to say, it's definitely a conspiracy theory, it's definitely anti-netanyahu, i'm open to being convinced it's anti-semitism, but not seen it yet... always happy to learn though | |
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