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I found the primer for the Moral Maze tonight on Radio 4 8pm really struck a chord with me:
Michael Buerk (Radio 4, 07:34): "It's a paradox of our times: Like us, half the World's population is voting this year in some kind of election, yet everywhere surveys show a loss of faith in democracy and its institutions. It's accused of polarising societies both sides of the Atlantic, of failing to respond to long-term problems like Climate Change, of losing ground to autocracies like China, and losing faith amongst the young. Democracy, it's said, ends up with the wrong decisions, being made by the wrong politicians, who've been picked for the wrong reasons. Can we really still says it's the best, or at any rate least worst, most moral form of government."
Everything seems so corrupted and devalued and we've ratcheted our standards of accountability down so far as we furtively squirrel away individualistically and allow society and environment to crumble, to die really, around us.
We have to stick with democracy, surely, but we need fundamentally accountable democracy which protects our people and our planet - there isn't any alternative. That's not what we get with more of the same, or a slightly different flavour of it, is it?
Democracy. What is it good for? on 14:35 - Jun 12 by Ewan_Oozami
Consent of the majority?
Not as far as I can see...
2019 General Election Party % share CON Conservative 43.6% LAB Labour 32.2% LD Liberal Democrat 11.5% SNP Scottish National Party 3.9% GRN Green 2.7% BRX The Brexit Party 2.0%
consent = voluntary agreement by a people to organize a civil society and give authority to the government. you are confusing 'consent' with 'voted for'. i didn't vote tory but i consented to the tory government after they won the election.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
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Democracy. What is it good for? on 14:54 - Jun 12 with 2105 views
Democracy. What is it good for? on 14:49 - Jun 12 by lowhouseblue
consent = voluntary agreement by a people to organize a civil society and give authority to the government. you are confusing 'consent' with 'voted for'. i didn't vote tory but i consented to the tory government after they won the election.
And that consent is realised by some sort of voting system?
You are the obsolete SRN4 to my Fairey Rotodyne....
Democracy. What is it good for? on 09:28 - Jun 12 by Guthrum
In a way, the US system is quite anarchistic, in that all public positions down to the lowest levels are voted for by the electorate. Unfortunately, that has just meant that party politics has become a factor in those decisions, divorced from the reality of the jobs officials are being elected for.
As a friend of mine who served as a local councillor said, party politics are irrelevant to repairing roads and waste collection.
Given particular groups and regions have their own agendas, there would need to be checks and balances to prevent a new descent into overarching, permanent political parties.
The US isn't a good example for as it has a Federal system of government (which makes sense for a country of its size) & many US citizens don't give a damn about national politics & regard Washington as an expensive talking shop. Unlike Britain the executive (i.e. the President) is separated from the legislature.
It’s not democracy that’s the problem - it’s the way that it operates in many countries. Kwarteng talked about a pendulum the other day that swings between the conservatives and labour. Democracy means literally people power. The first past the post system means that the votes of many people don’t count - they have no power. The power lies with the two main parties who know they only have to wait for the pendulum to swing before being given pretty much total power.
The main issues seem to me to be divisive politics and short term thinking. You could add the breadth of political opinions that exist in the country that aren’t given voice. There seems to be only two ways of addressing these - autocracy or proportional representation. Russia and China have become much more authoritarian. Many Scandinavian countries embrace pr and have much happier societies than ours. It allows for all voices to be heard, requires a politics of collaboration not division and means that there are no wild swings in policy as the pendulum swings much more gently.
If you haven’t already check out electoral reform society. The two main parties won’t push it - it’s a two party monopoly at the moment - Tesco or Sainsbury’s. The momentum is building behind this because of exactly this loss of faith in democracy. Starmer originally said he would put it on the table but has taken it off pretty quick. Disappointing. But I think the change is possible. It’s got to be better than dictatorship no?
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Democracy. What is it good for? on 16:34 - Jun 12 with 1957 views
Democracy. What is it good for? on 16:09 - Jun 12 by ElephantintheRoom
We could try democracy. I’m not sure anyone on here can remember a government voted for by the majority of voters.
A two party system gives you that, but then the US system is that with a strong centrist political establishment offering 2 similar parties., or so it seems to me.
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Democracy. What is it good for? on 17:34 - Jun 12 with 1932 views
Democracy. What is it good for? on 16:32 - Jun 12 by Argyle_blue
It’s not democracy that’s the problem - it’s the way that it operates in many countries. Kwarteng talked about a pendulum the other day that swings between the conservatives and labour. Democracy means literally people power. The first past the post system means that the votes of many people don’t count - they have no power. The power lies with the two main parties who know they only have to wait for the pendulum to swing before being given pretty much total power.
The main issues seem to me to be divisive politics and short term thinking. You could add the breadth of political opinions that exist in the country that aren’t given voice. There seems to be only two ways of addressing these - autocracy or proportional representation. Russia and China have become much more authoritarian. Many Scandinavian countries embrace pr and have much happier societies than ours. It allows for all voices to be heard, requires a politics of collaboration not division and means that there are no wild swings in policy as the pendulum swings much more gently.
If you haven’t already check out electoral reform society. The two main parties won’t push it - it’s a two party monopoly at the moment - Tesco or Sainsbury’s. The momentum is building behind this because of exactly this loss of faith in democracy. Starmer originally said he would put it on the table but has taken it off pretty quick. Disappointing. But I think the change is possible. It’s got to be better than dictatorship no?
Russia has pretty much always been authoritarian, moving from the Tsars to a sort of Soviet near dictatorship, with a brief interlude under Yeltsin. However yes, Putin seems even more of a dictator than the likes of Brezhnev. China has also never been a democracy, but recent moves to remove the 2-term limit of the President is not good as it will become a gerontocracy, with the leaders largely interested in preserving their own status & power.
Democracy. What is it good for? on 16:32 - Jun 12 by Argyle_blue
It’s not democracy that’s the problem - it’s the way that it operates in many countries. Kwarteng talked about a pendulum the other day that swings between the conservatives and labour. Democracy means literally people power. The first past the post system means that the votes of many people don’t count - they have no power. The power lies with the two main parties who know they only have to wait for the pendulum to swing before being given pretty much total power.
The main issues seem to me to be divisive politics and short term thinking. You could add the breadth of political opinions that exist in the country that aren’t given voice. There seems to be only two ways of addressing these - autocracy or proportional representation. Russia and China have become much more authoritarian. Many Scandinavian countries embrace pr and have much happier societies than ours. It allows for all voices to be heard, requires a politics of collaboration not division and means that there are no wild swings in policy as the pendulum swings much more gently.
If you haven’t already check out electoral reform society. The two main parties won’t push it - it’s a two party monopoly at the moment - Tesco or Sainsbury’s. The momentum is building behind this because of exactly this loss of faith in democracy. Starmer originally said he would put it on the table but has taken it off pretty quick. Disappointing. But I think the change is possible. It’s got to be better than dictatorship no?
So you’re saying we need to shop in Lidl (Waitrose for Facters, obviously)?
Good post - agreed. It’s going to take a couple of elections to move in the right direction I expect. 1. Get rid of the Tories. 2. Work on Labour to let them know Tory-lite isn’t an option either. Chances of getting there? Slim probably.
Democracy. What is it good for? on 14:49 - Jun 12 by lowhouseblue
consent = voluntary agreement by a people to organize a civil society and give authority to the government. you are confusing 'consent' with 'voted for'. i didn't vote tory but i consented to the tory government after they won the election.
So you will agree then that when less than 50% vote, registered or not and including spoiled papers then it is over and at a local level has been over for decades? Thanks for reinforcing my decision not to vote.... "They've got it all worked out and we give our consent..."
[Post edited 12 Jun 2024 19:13]
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Democracy. What is it good for? on 17:54 - Jun 12 by BanksterDebtSlave
So you will agree then that when less than 50% vote, registered or not and including spoiled papers then it is over and at a local level has been over for decades? Thanks for reinforcing my decision not to vote.... "They've got it all worked out and we give our consent..."
[Post edited 12 Jun 2024 19:13]
i think you may need to place your finger on the first word and then move it along the line. try sounding the words out if that helps.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
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Democracy. What is it good for? on 19:14 - Jun 12 with 1857 views
Democracy. What is it good for? on 19:14 - Jun 12 by BanksterDebtSlave
When did the people make this voluntary agreement?
whenever they accept the legitimacy of a government that they didn't vote for.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
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Democracy. What is it good for? on 19:46 - Jun 12 with 1811 views
Democracy. What is it good for? on 19:46 - Jun 12 by BanksterDebtSlave
Oh ok so nothing official then. So what about people that don't vote, are they 'consenting' too?
Thought not, perhaps if you had.... " placed your finger on the first word and then moved it along the line. Try sounding the words out if that helps."
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Democracy. What is it good for? on 17:48 - Jun 12 by Swansea_Blue
So you’re saying we need to shop in Lidl (Waitrose for Facters, obviously)?
Good post - agreed. It’s going to take a couple of elections to move in the right direction I expect. 1. Get rid of the Tories. 2. Work on Labour to let them know Tory-lite isn’t an option either. Chances of getting there? Slim probably.
Ha i suppose im saying that maybe democracies - a bit like markets - cease to flourish when they are dominated by big players - parties or companies - who have a vested interest in keeping it that way and not letting anyone else in. It’s funny - the tories apply the market analogy to almost everything except politics.
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Democracy. What is it good for? on 08:19 - Jun 13 with 1690 views
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