| Labour’s manifesto 09:21 - Jun 13 with 17598 views | thebooks |
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/13/rachel-reeves-reck
Basically:
- Austerity (“there’s no money left!”)
- Arm waving “growth” led by incentivising more private sector running of infrastructure and the NHS
- Some vague “we’ll be nicer to workers” platitudes
- We’ll fix more potholes
As Ipswich will go to Labour, surely that means a Greens vote for anyone who’s not right/centre right? |  | | |  |
| Labour’s manifesto on 22:35 - Jun 14 with 1889 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Labour’s manifesto on 22:15 - Jun 14 by Blueschev |
I despise Galloway, what does he have to do with anything? |
It's the kind of sneering that people on the left of the Labour Party are thoroughly sick of – it's bad enough when it comes from Tories, let alone supposed party members. The vast, vast majority aren't cranks, racists or Galloway supporters, they just want decent left wing policies to try and repair the country from the various disastrous things done since 1979. |  | | |
| Labour’s manifesto on 22:45 - Jun 14 with 1845 views | DJR |
| Labour’s manifesto on 20:19 - Jun 14 by Ryorry |
I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a behind closed doors strategy to get Labour in via Starmer, then for him to stand down after a year or so to make way for a more go-getting leader. Wish Burnham would stand, he’s just what Labour needs, most members would get behind him I think, and he could unite the party - which is very, very badly needed. |
It is clear to me that Wes is their man in the unlikely event Starmer stands down.
As regards Burnham (whom I voted for in 2015) , it strikes me is to much of a maverick for those in charge of the party to be able to control, so I think they would steer well clear of him. |  | | |
| Labour’s manifesto on 22:46 - Jun 14 with 1840 views | lowhouseblue |
| Labour’s manifesto on 22:35 - Jun 14 by Clapham_Junction |
It's the kind of sneering that people on the left of the Labour Party are thoroughly sick of – it's bad enough when it comes from Tories, let alone supposed party members. The vast, vast majority aren't cranks, racists or Galloway supporters, they just want decent left wing policies to try and repair the country from the various disastrous things done since 1979. |
its sneering because you never consider how to get electoral support for any of it. if you can't get elected you achieve nothing. zilch. zero. nothing. you repair nothing. you might as well support galloway for all the change you achieve. sadly, and this is the tragedy of the left, an awful lot of the left just have contempt for the sort of people who need to vote for the party for it to gain power. labour will win because of the 37% the daily mail supporters who are voting for it. without them it loses, yet again. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 22:58 - Jun 14 with 1779 views | Blueschev |
| Labour’s manifesto on 22:46 - Jun 14 by lowhouseblue |
its sneering because you never consider how to get electoral support for any of it. if you can't get elected you achieve nothing. zilch. zero. nothing. you repair nothing. you might as well support galloway for all the change you achieve. sadly, and this is the tragedy of the left, an awful lot of the left just have contempt for the sort of people who need to vote for the party for it to gain power. labour will win because of the 37% the daily mail supporters who are voting for it. without them it loses, yet again. |
Again you mention Galloway and make sweeping generalisations about anyone who doesn’t think Starmer is great. I’ve voted Labour at almost every election I’ve be eligible to vote in (not 2005). What I won’t do is support a party run by Stalin-esqe control freaks. Who lied to get in to power before dumping on huge numbers of the people who got them there, only to offer Cameron light policies. To me, politics is about winning the argument, not winning for winnings sake. |  | | |
| Labour’s manifesto on 23:02 - Jun 14 with 1739 views | DJR |
| Labour’s manifesto on 21:10 - Jun 14 by thebooks |
Indeed. The PLP is sewn up, and even the CLPs are looking pretty done. It certainly is here in Ipswich. A lot of people (racist cranks, apparently - there are some real charmers on here) have left, so well done for staying. I gave up a year or so ago; as it stands, there's no way to influence the party's path.
Clive's done well to hang on in there. I wouldn't be surprised if the current regime changes the rules for electing a new leader, cementing the Labour party as a technocratic, managerialist concern. Bit depressing, really.
I guess there could be another grassroots thing in the future. Politics can change quickly. |
I hung on until the autumn thinking that I would still have a say but the right have total control of the party, so I resigned because as a member of a party you like to think you have some influence.
Several people I know have also resigned in the last two years, all of whom have (like me) been members long before Corbyn became leader. None of us are far, hard or loony left. Nor are we cranks and racists., but that is how thousands of perfectly decent people are described by those on the right, and even those now in charge of the Labour Party.
Putting it another way there is a soft left (or perhaps a social democratic left) between the hard or Corbynite left and the current Labour Party, but you would never realise that given all the smears.
Oh for the days when issues were discussed, but it's all about insults, slogans, sounbites, spin and trivia these days, and it has been for some time. [Post edited 14 Jun 2024 23:29]
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| Labour’s manifesto on 23:08 - Jun 14 with 1705 views | lowhouseblue |
| Labour’s manifesto on 22:58 - Jun 14 by Blueschev |
Again you mention Galloway and make sweeping generalisations about anyone who doesn’t think Starmer is great. I’ve voted Labour at almost every election I’ve be eligible to vote in (not 2005). What I won’t do is support a party run by Stalin-esqe control freaks. Who lied to get in to power before dumping on huge numbers of the people who got them there, only to offer Cameron light policies. To me, politics is about winning the argument, not winning for winnings sake. |
politics is about electoral support. it seems odd to have to type that. if you're too leftwing to want to see a labour government you're no different from galloway. you might quibble with him on wording but your impact on anything that affects anyone is just the same. and that argument you're winning - no one notices. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 23:15 - Jun 14 with 1671 views | Blueschev |
| Labour’s manifesto on 23:08 - Jun 14 by lowhouseblue |
politics is about electoral support. it seems odd to have to type that. if you're too leftwing to want to see a labour government you're no different from galloway. you might quibble with him on wording but your impact on anything that affects anyone is just the same. and that argument you're winning - no one notices. |
I’d argue your outlook is far closer to Galloway’s than mine. He’s quite happy to add right wing rhetoric to his alleged socialist programme in order to attract a wider audience with the end goal of winning as many votes as he can. I make no apology for having no interest in supporting that strategy, whether that be with Labour or Galloway’s so called Workers Party. [Post edited 15 Jun 2024 1:42]
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| Labour’s manifesto on 23:17 - Jun 14 with 1658 views | DJR |
| Labour’s manifesto on 23:08 - Jun 14 by lowhouseblue |
politics is about electoral support. it seems odd to have to type that. if you're too leftwing to want to see a labour government you're no different from galloway. you might quibble with him on wording but your impact on anything that affects anyone is just the same. and that argument you're winning - no one notices. |
I refer my honourable friend to my post about insults and smears. | | | |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 23:20 - Jun 14 with 1634 views | Blueschev |
| Labour’s manifesto on 23:02 - Jun 14 by DJR |
I hung on until the autumn thinking that I would still have a say but the right have total control of the party, so I resigned because as a member of a party you like to think you have some influence.
Several people I know have also resigned in the last two years, all of whom have (like me) been members long before Corbyn became leader. None of us are far, hard or loony left. Nor are we cranks and racists., but that is how thousands of perfectly decent people are described by those on the right, and even those now in charge of the Labour Party.
Putting it another way there is a soft left (or perhaps a social democratic left) between the hard or Corbynite left and the current Labour Party, but you would never realise that given all the smears.
Oh for the days when issues were discussed, but it's all about insults, slogans, sounbites, spin and trivia these days, and it has been for some time. [Post edited 14 Jun 2024 23:29]
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Your last sentence is spot on, and highlighted within this thread. [Post edited 14 Jun 2024 23:23]
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| Labour’s manifesto on 23:24 - Jun 14 with 1626 views | lowhouseblue |
| Labour’s manifesto on 23:15 - Jun 14 by Blueschev |
I’d argue your outlook is far closer to Galloway’s than mine. He’s quite happy to add right wing rhetoric to his alleged socialist programme in order to attract a wider audience with the end goal of winning as many votes as he can. I make no apology for having no interest in supporting that strategy, whether that be with Labour or Galloway’s so called Workers Party. [Post edited 15 Jun 2024 1:42]
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errrr, galloway, starmer's labour party, ok. having no interest in attracting a wider audience and winning votes. ... it's great to be honest i guess. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 23:28 - Jun 14 with 1608 views | lowhouseblue |
| Labour’s manifesto on 23:17 - Jun 14 by DJR |
I refer my honourable friend to my post about insults and smears. |
i'm assuming soft left includes welcoming a labour government? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 23:32 - Jun 14 with 1573 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Labour’s manifesto on 23:08 - Jun 14 by lowhouseblue |
politics is about electoral support. it seems odd to have to type that. if you're too leftwing to want to see a labour government you're no different from galloway. you might quibble with him on wording but your impact on anything that affects anyone is just the same. and that argument you're winning - no one notices. |
Nonsense |  | | |
| Labour’s manifesto on 23:34 - Jun 14 with 1549 views | Ryorry |
| Labour’s manifesto on 22:58 - Jun 14 by Blueschev |
Again you mention Galloway and make sweeping generalisations about anyone who doesn’t think Starmer is great. I’ve voted Labour at almost every election I’ve be eligible to vote in (not 2005). What I won’t do is support a party run by Stalin-esqe control freaks. Who lied to get in to power before dumping on huge numbers of the people who got them there, only to offer Cameron light policies. To me, politics is about winning the argument, not winning for winnings sake. |
So let's say you've won the argument re principles, but still haven't persuaded the electorate to go with you.
How much influence do you/does any party in opposition then have to change laws, taxation, damaging policies etc., particularly when up against a government with a large majority? |  |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 23:35 - Jun 14 with 1548 views | Blueschev |
| Labour’s manifesto on 23:24 - Jun 14 by lowhouseblue |
errrr, galloway, starmer's labour party, ok. having no interest in attracting a wider audience and winning votes. ... it's great to be honest i guess. |
Party’s of any political persuasion saying anything that they think will get them elected, regardless of whether or not they believe it, is exactly why people despise politicians so much and feel so disengaged. It desperately needs to change. I make no apologies for not supporting it getting worse. But no doubt you’ll pretend you don’t get the point I’m trying to make and squeeze Galloway in to your reply somehow. | | | |
| Labour’s manifesto on 23:41 - Jun 14 with 1506 views | DJR |
| Labour’s manifesto on 23:28 - Jun 14 by lowhouseblue |
i'm assuming soft left includes welcoming a labour government? |
Welcoming in the sense that they will be better than the Tories, but not inspired and with grave concerns about their shift rightwards and whether they will make much difference.
Putting it another way the emotional attachment I have had to the Labour Party since I was 14 has now gone. [Post edited 14 Jun 2024 23:42]
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| Labour’s manifesto on 23:43 - Jun 14 with 1494 views | Blueschev |
| Labour’s manifesto on 23:34 - Jun 14 by Ryorry |
So let's say you've won the argument re principles, but still haven't persuaded the electorate to go with you.
How much influence do you/does any party in opposition then have to change laws, taxation, damaging policies etc., particularly when up against a government with a large majority? |
If you don’t win then you haven’t won the argument. But if you win by aping your opponents, what have you won exactly? | | | |
| Labour’s manifesto on 23:43 - Jun 14 with 1489 views | lowhouseblue |
| Labour’s manifesto on 23:35 - Jun 14 by Blueschev |
Party’s of any political persuasion saying anything that they think will get them elected, regardless of whether or not they believe it, is exactly why people despise politicians so much and feel so disengaged. It desperately needs to change. I make no apologies for not supporting it getting worse. But no doubt you’ll pretend you don’t get the point I’m trying to make and squeeze Galloway in to your reply somehow. |
so your vote for someone who isn't galloway. what difference will it make?
how will it compare with starmer mobilising a sufficient coalition of support to get the tories out? why can't people with your views (be it galloway or someone else) mobilise a twentieth of that support? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 23:47 - Jun 14 with 1463 views | DJR |
| Labour’s manifesto on 23:43 - Jun 14 by lowhouseblue |
so your vote for someone who isn't galloway. what difference will it make?
how will it compare with starmer mobilising a sufficient coalition of support to get the tories out? why can't people with your views (be it galloway or someone else) mobilise a twentieth of that support? |
You could be describing Liberal, Social Democrat or Liberal Democrat voters for over a century because the only time their votes made a difference was in 2010.
The good thing about liberal democracy is that one is free to vote for the party of one's choice, or not vote at all.
And where I live, whoever I vote for won't stop a Tory winning, even with the current state of the polls, but I will still vote. [Post edited 15 Jun 2024 10:42]
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| Labour’s manifesto on 23:52 - Jun 14 with 1440 views | Blueschev |
| Labour’s manifesto on 23:43 - Jun 14 by lowhouseblue |
so your vote for someone who isn't galloway. what difference will it make?
how will it compare with starmer mobilising a sufficient coalition of support to get the tories out? why can't people with your views (be it galloway or someone else) mobilise a twentieth of that support? |
Even I didn’t think you’d manage to squeeze in two Galloway references! We appear to be going around in circles here as you seem intent on ignoring any point I make. For the record I hope you’re right and a Starmer government delivers significant improvements for the country. But I won’t hold my breath. | | | |
| Labour’s manifesto on 23:55 - Jun 14 with 1427 views | Ryorry |
| Labour’s manifesto on 23:43 - Jun 14 by Blueschev |
If you don’t win then you haven’t won the argument. But if you win by aping your opponents, what have you won exactly? |
Labour aren’t “aping” the Tories; but in answer to your question - the ability to achieve at least modest change, as opposed to no change at all via your method. | |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 01:00 - Jun 15 with 1362 views | Blueschev |
| Labour’s manifesto on 23:55 - Jun 14 by Ryorry |
Labour aren’t “aping” the Tories; but in answer to your question - the ability to achieve at least modest change, as opposed to no change at all via your method. |
I’d argue that that attitude, particularly from those of us who are politically engaged, is the reason there will be little or no change, at a time that we need significant change. As for aping the Tories, look at their “fiscal rules”, it ensures almost nothing will change. | | | |
| Labour’s manifesto on 07:14 - Jun 15 with 1281 views | DJR |
| Labour’s manifesto on 01:00 - Jun 15 by Blueschev |
I’d argue that that attitude, particularly from those of us who are politically engaged, is the reason there will be little or no change, at a time that we need significant change. As for aping the Tories, look at their “fiscal rules”, it ensures almost nothing will change. |
Interesting article from 2021 on fiscal rules from the IFS.
https://ifs.org.uk/books/rewriting-fiscal-rules
"Successive Chancellors have been too quick to announce poorly designed fiscal targets: in total, 11 have been announced in the last seven years, with most of them being missed before being dropped."
Interestingly, Rachel Reeves was planning a new set of fiscal rules last autumn but decided to stick with the Tories' rules this spring for what seemed to be ming vase reasons.
"I will introduce a new set of fiscal rules. These rules will apply to every decision taken by a Labour government. We will not borrow to fund day-to-day spending and we will reduce national debt as a share of the economy. I am clear that these rules are non-negotiable. There will be no exceptions. As with our revised charter of budget responsibility, these rules will be put to parliament to back."
Given such rules are not set in stone, maybe, just maybe, they will change them when in power.
But if nothing changes, including on the tax front, £17 billion worth of cuts are due to kick in from 2025-26, only 9 months away.
[Post edited 15 Jun 2024 8:52]
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| Labour’s manifesto on 07:38 - Jun 15 with 1252 views | thebooks |
| Labour’s manifesto on 23:02 - Jun 14 by DJR |
I hung on until the autumn thinking that I would still have a say but the right have total control of the party, so I resigned because as a member of a party you like to think you have some influence.
Several people I know have also resigned in the last two years, all of whom have (like me) been members long before Corbyn became leader. None of us are far, hard or loony left. Nor are we cranks and racists., but that is how thousands of perfectly decent people are described by those on the right, and even those now in charge of the Labour Party.
Putting it another way there is a soft left (or perhaps a social democratic left) between the hard or Corbynite left and the current Labour Party, but you would never realise that given all the smears.
Oh for the days when issues were discussed, but it's all about insults, slogans, sounbites, spin and trivia these days, and it has been for some time. [Post edited 14 Jun 2024 23:29]
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CLPs have been marginalised since Blair, although that's been accelerated under Starmer. When David Ellesmere was the parliamentary candidate for Ipswich it was still a broadish church; the PLP did parachute in their own candidate (quite a nice guy, actually, from Swansea if I remember rightly), but he didn't get the nomination. Then again, there are few in the Ipswich CLP that would upset the Starmer regime anyway.
Some Corbyn-era policies were popular beyond the Labour party, and would probably be seen as sensible. Starmer could quite easily have adopted some of them without risk in this election. | | | |
| Labour’s manifesto on 08:38 - Jun 15 with 1193 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Labour’s manifesto on 22:23 - Jun 14 by Blueschev |
The way I see it yes. If Labour win with a large majority and very little changes it will lead to further public distrust of politicians and see increased support to the likes of Farage, who may well be a leading political figure by 2029. You’ll no doubt rejoice in the death of the left, but the void will be filled by an emboldened far right. |
This is very much the future. |  |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 08:42 - Jun 15 with 1188 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Labour’s manifesto on 22:46 - Jun 14 by lowhouseblue |
its sneering because you never consider how to get electoral support for any of it. if you can't get elected you achieve nothing. zilch. zero. nothing. you repair nothing. you might as well support galloway for all the change you achieve. sadly, and this is the tragedy of the left, an awful lot of the left just have contempt for the sort of people who need to vote for the party for it to gain power. labour will win because of the 37% the daily mail supporters who are voting for it. without them it loses, yet again. |
Right.....right.....right....right....right.
Inspirational.
Imagine actually voting FOR something. | |
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