| Labour’s manifesto 09:21 - Jun 13 with 17594 views | thebooks |
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/13/rachel-reeves-reck
Basically:
- Austerity (“there’s no money left!”)
- Arm waving “growth” led by incentivising more private sector running of infrastructure and the NHS
- Some vague “we’ll be nicer to workers” platitudes
- We’ll fix more potholes
As Ipswich will go to Labour, surely that means a Greens vote for anyone who’s not right/centre right? |  | | |  |
| Labour’s manifesto on 12:21 - Jun 13 with 2031 views | lowhouseblue |
| Labour’s manifesto on 11:55 - Jun 13 by Trequartista |
I saw similar on question time recently ...
Green leader - We will increase taxes on the rich to raise billions of pounds.
Chair - Won't the richest just move their money abroad?
Green leader - Mumble, Stumble, errrm something about a survey where it is hoped they don't. |
the green on newsnight said that billionaires wouldn't leave the country because they were patriotic. i really couldn't tell if he was being sarcastic - but it was the only answer he offered. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 12:26 - Jun 13 with 1979 views | WestStanderLaLaLa |
| Labour’s manifesto on 11:36 - Jun 13 by thebooks |
I guess that’s what I’m asking. I don’t think there’s any chance Lab won’t take Ipswich as most people will be voting just to get rid of the Tories. In seats like this, I think you could have a say in what Lab does when it gets into govt.
If you were sure Lab were going to win, who would you vote for? |
I did a “I side with” earlier in the week and Green came out on top, 6% higher than Labour, so should be them but I’d need to think a lot more about nuclear weapons before placing my x |  |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 12:27 - Jun 13 with 1962 views | DJR |
| Labour’s manifesto on 11:26 - Jun 13 by Herbivore |
So effectively mainly incentivising and/or underwriting profit making companies active in or entering into the green energy sector? That doesn't feel particularly close to a nationalised green energy company, which is what I'd expected to see. |
There is a great deal of oversell here. But if they are going to go down this route, they ought to follow what private equity and venture capital does, namely, use things like seed funding so as to ensure a proper return on investment.
As it is the £28 billion green investment pledge was cut in February to £15 billion, but that £15 billion includes £10 billion already committed by the Tories, so they are now only committed to £4.75 billion new money.
Interestingly, this article indicates the dropping of the £28 billion pledge marked a shift in Reeve's entire economic philosophy.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/08/scaled-back-28bn-pledge-marks-a
Rachel Reeves had promised to spend big to be Britain’s first green chancellor. Now she wants to spend as little public money as possible [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 12:28]
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| Labour’s manifesto on 12:28 - Jun 13 with 1949 views | Trequartista |
| Labour’s manifesto on 12:21 - Jun 13 by lowhouseblue |
the green on newsnight said that billionaires wouldn't leave the country because they were patriotic. i really couldn't tell if he was being sarcastic - but it was the only answer he offered. |
I'm not against an adjustment of taxation to those who can afford to pay more at all, it's just the idea it will raise billions is a fallacy. |  |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 12:31 - Jun 13 with 1922 views | homer_123 |
| Labour’s manifesto on 10:18 - Jun 13 by StokieBlue |
I don't think I've implied it could be worse than what we have but it good be a rubbish implementation of something which could be excellent.
For instance, a few things I would hope to see:
- It should hire school leavers into multi-year apprenticeships to build everything required, there is no reason to import this tech. There should be many and varied apprenticeships, young people need options outside of just going to university.
- It should hire graduates for roles more suited to highly skilled workers like research and design. No reason why we can't be net exports of green tech.
- All profits should be reinvested or placed in a green fund for other green projects.
- It should have some form of exception (within reason) to some planning clauses. Currently there is approximately 9GW of solar power being opposed and thus held up by nimbys.
SB |
No, I know you weren't.
I was merely making the point that 'it might be worse' isn't a good enough reason for not changing something that is clearly broken. |  |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 12:57 - Jun 13 with 1854 views | StokieBlue |
| Labour’s manifesto on 12:31 - Jun 13 by homer_123 |
No, I know you weren't.
I was merely making the point that 'it might be worse' isn't a good enough reason for not changing something that is clearly broken. |
Well looking at what they are actually proposing it's a massive disappointment.
SB |  |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 13:02 - Jun 13 with 1863 views | blueasfook |
| Labour’s manifesto on 12:17 - Jun 13 by Mookamoo |
Suffolk is taking the hits with the Norfolk/Tilbury pylons, Sizewell C and all the offshore infrastructure. Would be the perfect place to control all the energy projects.
Felixstowe and Harwich ready and waiting to export all the new tech we'll be inventing and manufacturing. |
he he! I don't think UK is going to undergo a new industrial revolution somehow. The tech that GBE will use is already well-established. Wind, solar, nuclear. I don't know why people are envisaging armies of boffins inventing new technologies that will convert seaweed to electricity or something. |  |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 13:08 - Jun 13 with 1809 views | J2BLUE |
| Labour’s manifesto on 13:02 - Jun 13 by blueasfook |
he he! I don't think UK is going to undergo a new industrial revolution somehow. The tech that GBE will use is already well-established. Wind, solar, nuclear. I don't know why people are envisaging armies of boffins inventing new technologies that will convert seaweed to electricity or something. |
Amazing idea.
I want to invest in your company. |  |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 13:08 - Jun 13 with 1814 views | StokieBlue |
| Labour’s manifesto on 13:02 - Jun 13 by blueasfook |
he he! I don't think UK is going to undergo a new industrial revolution somehow. The tech that GBE will use is already well-established. Wind, solar, nuclear. I don't know why people are envisaging armies of boffins inventing new technologies that will convert seaweed to electricity or something. |
That's totally incorrect especially with regards to solar and nuclear which are still heavily researched and developed.
For nuclear thorium reactors are something being researched along with improvements to G4 reactors. Fusion research is moving on at an impressive speed as well. For solar, multi-material cells as well as cells which can use more wavelengths of light are being developed and there is huge scope for improvements.
It's all very well belittling people but it could be done much better and improvements and new discoveries could be made here if the investment and motivation were high enough.
What has been proposed amounts to little more than a fund to expand development by private companies, it's not what we should be doing.
SB | |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 13:11 - Jun 13 with 1791 views | blueasfook |
| Labour’s manifesto on 13:08 - Jun 13 by StokieBlue |
That's totally incorrect especially with regards to solar and nuclear which are still heavily researched and developed.
For nuclear thorium reactors are something being researched along with improvements to G4 reactors. Fusion research is moving on at an impressive speed as well. For solar, multi-material cells as well as cells which can use more wavelengths of light are being developed and there is huge scope for improvements.
It's all very well belittling people but it could be done much better and improvements and new discoveries could be made here if the investment and motivation were high enough.
What has been proposed amounts to little more than a fund to expand development by private companies, it's not what we should be doing.
SB |
All tech is still being researched and developed. It's the very nature of it. What i meant is the tech concerned is sufficiently mature to be used now. | |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 13:21 - Jun 13 with 1724 views | blueasfook |
| Labour’s manifesto on 13:08 - Jun 13 by J2BLUE |
Amazing idea.
I want to invest in your company. |
I'm already in talks with Cambridge university to establish a centre of excellence for seaweed research. | |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 13:24 - Jun 13 with 1698 views | lowhouseblue |
| Labour’s manifesto on 13:21 - Jun 13 by blueasfook |
I'm already in talks with Cambridge university to establish a centre of excellence for seaweed research. |
https://www.plantsci.cam.ac.uk/impact/algal-innovation-centre | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 13:27 - Jun 13 with 1675 views | blueasfook |
Wow, they got the new website up quick. Only phoned them this morning. | |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 13:30 - Jun 13 with 1641 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Labour’s manifesto on 12:21 - Jun 13 by lowhouseblue |
the green on newsnight said that billionaires wouldn't leave the country because they were patriotic. i really couldn't tell if he was being sarcastic - but it was the only answer he offered. |
They don’t even have to leave, they can just change their domicile. Ownership of assets can easily be obsfucated through shell companies. I think it’s a good idea, and I don’t think it’s enough to cause an exodus of HNW people given it would still be less than many comparable European countries. Where I am sceptical is for the aforementioned reasons it won’t recoup anything like the amount stated, and the cost of administering it will be huge.
Probably get pelters, but the NI increase over 50k is a bad policy - feels too severe. For a young single income family on 50k with housing costs 8 times salary in the South East (if you are lucky), that’s a hell of a hit. Taxes must rise but on the genuinely wealthy. 50k may seem a lot on the face of it, but it’s a level where you lose important government support, and for the young housing costs are atrocious. |  | | |
| Labour’s manifesto on 13:38 - Jun 13 with 1614 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Labour’s manifesto on 11:22 - Jun 13 by DJR |
It appears to be mainly aimed at fostering (and part financing) private and other projects and technologies.
This is what the following website (set up by the Labour Party) says about it.
https://great-british-energy.org.uk/
Great British Energy will have three initial priorities working alongside private partners:
Co-investing in new technologies: Great British Energy will help speed up and scale the deployment of new technologies, with public investment helping to crowd in investment in areas like floating offshore wind, tidal power and hydrogen as they develop into mature technologies.
Scale and accelerate mature technologies: Great British Energy will also help scale and accelerate the roll-out of mature technologies, like wind, solar and nuclear. It will partner with existing private sector firms to speed up deployment of mature renewable technologies to meet our ambitious clean power timelines. It will also build organisational capability and expertise to deliver energy megaprojects like nuclear power stations, reducing project and construction risk.
Scale up municipal and community energy: GB Energy will partner with energy companies, local authorities and cooperatives to develop 8GWs small-scale and medium-scale community energy projects. Profits will flow directly back into local communities to cut bills, not to the shareholders of foreign companies. This will help to create a more decentralised energy system, with more local generation and ownership, and will help to create a more resilient energy system. [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 11:24]
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So a bit like an environmental version of Blair’s PFI stuff with the NHS? There’s so much more they could do. |  |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 13:40 - Jun 13 with 1600 views | DJR |
| Labour’s manifesto on 13:21 - Jun 13 by blueasfook |
I'm already in talks with Cambridge university to establish a centre of excellence for seaweed research. |
If you need any kelp. [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 13:41]
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| Labour’s manifesto on 13:43 - Jun 13 with 1576 views | DJR |
| Labour’s manifesto on 13:38 - Jun 13 by Swansea_Blue |
So a bit like an environmental version of Blair’s PFI stuff with the NHS? There’s so much more they could do. |
And these people think so too.
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| Labour’s manifesto on 13:47 - Jun 13 with 1538 views | ElderGrizzly |
It's great.
£7.4bn of tax rises of which £6.7bn are 'wealth taxes' that will only affect the 1%.
5.2bn on non-dom and tax avoidance loopholes being closed and £1.5bn on private school VAT.
The Tory cheerleaders miss this out of course... |  | | |
| Labour’s manifesto on 13:49 - Jun 13 with 1528 views | smithy91 |
100% want anyone but the tories. But by god are they boring. Wheres the vision?
Continual talk of economic growth, nowt on the wealth inequalities or any kind of redistribution. Someone on this thread slating the green policy, one simple way to stop movement to avoid paying tax is introducing a link to citizenship- if you have are born here/UK passport then you need to pay tax here...apparently something other countries are considering introducing.
Barely any talk of embracing green energy revolution.
Talk of building x new houses (lets be honest mostly cheap/crap quality), nothing about bringing housing back into circulation from all the private landlords/empty homes of the ultra rich/airbnbs. |  | | |
| Labour’s manifesto on 13:50 - Jun 13 with 1523 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Labour’s manifesto on 13:43 - Jun 13 by DJR |
And these people think so too.
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Huh. She’s probably got a point and was very polite about it. I’d like to see someone do an in-depth interview with him on his plans for addressing climate change and the role he sees the UK playing. We were the leader once for many types of green tech*, but it seems that we have been left behind following a generation of disinvestment and policy uncertainty. I think that’s a fair assessment.
(*and not just green tech - we led the world in communication tech like fibre optics not that long ago too, but again have now been left behind). | |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 13:52 - Jun 13 with 1507 views | DJR |
| Labour’s manifesto on 12:27 - Jun 13 by DJR |
There is a great deal of oversell here. But if they are going to go down this route, they ought to follow what private equity and venture capital does, namely, use things like seed funding so as to ensure a proper return on investment.
As it is the £28 billion green investment pledge was cut in February to £15 billion, but that £15 billion includes £10 billion already committed by the Tories, so they are now only committed to £4.75 billion new money.
Interestingly, this article indicates the dropping of the £28 billion pledge marked a shift in Reeve's entire economic philosophy.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/08/scaled-back-28bn-pledge-marks-a
Rachel Reeves had promised to spend big to be Britain’s first green chancellor. Now she wants to spend as little public money as possible [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 12:28]
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The manifesto doesn't contain much detail about the green prosperity plan but confirms what I earlier posted about GB Energy, and that the new money amounts to £4.7 billion.
https://labour.org.uk/change/make-britain-a-clean-energy-superpower/
https://labour.org.uk/change/labours-fiscal-plan/ | | | |
| Labour’s manifesto on 14:01 - Jun 13 with 1469 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
Quite a lot to unpack, but how are they proposing this saves money on people’s bills? Assuming it boosts the amount of renewable electricity generated, it would still presumably be under current ofgem pricing whereby the most expensive source (e.g burning gas) sets the rate used. Are they decoupling from this arrangement? Under the current system we are still vulnerable to pricing shocks to the commodity markets, so unless the pricing system is changed we aren’t insulated from that.
My understanding is they are not directly proving energy, so I’m struggling to see how the consumer benefits other than a larger base load of renewables on the grid. | | | |
| Labour’s manifesto on 14:06 - Jun 13 with 1445 views | DJR |
| Labour’s manifesto on 14:01 - Jun 13 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Quite a lot to unpack, but how are they proposing this saves money on people’s bills? Assuming it boosts the amount of renewable electricity generated, it would still presumably be under current ofgem pricing whereby the most expensive source (e.g burning gas) sets the rate used. Are they decoupling from this arrangement? Under the current system we are still vulnerable to pricing shocks to the commodity markets, so unless the pricing system is changed we aren’t insulated from that.
My understanding is they are not directly proving energy, so I’m struggling to see how the consumer benefits other than a larger base load of renewables on the grid. |
All of what you say is my take too, and as I mentioned above there is an awful lot of overselling going on. [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 14:15]
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| Labour’s manifesto on 14:08 - Jun 13 with 1426 views | mutters |
Didnt see much from Labour to inspire me to vote for them, apart from the fact they are not the Tories.
Many things appear uncosted, will be interested in seeing how their manifesto stacks up once more alaysis is done. All parties claim to have costed out their pledges, though I looked at the Greens and wonder how on earth are they going to pay for all that? |  |
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| Labour’s manifesto on 14:09 - Jun 13 with 1420 views | DJR |
This is Paul Johnson's take on the manifesto.
This was not a manifesto for those looking for big numbers. The public service spending increases promised in the “costings” table are tiny, going on trivial. The tax rises, beyond the inevitable reduced tax avoidance, even more trivial. The biggest commitment, to the much vaunted “green prosperity plan”, comes in at no more than £5bn a year, funded in part by borrowing and in part by “a windfall tax on the oil and gas giants”.
Beyond that, almost nothing in the way of definite promises on spending despite Labour diagnosing deep-seated problems across child poverty, homelessness, higher education funding, adult social care, local government finances, pensions and much more besides. Definite promises though not to do things. Not to have debt rising at the end of the forecast. Not to increase tax on working people. Not to increase rates of income tax, National Insurance, VAT or corporation tax.
One public service where there are big promises is on the NHS. Labour has recommitted to the workforce plan, to getting rid of all waiting times more than 18 weeks, and to more hospitals. Big promises, but that will require big spending too.
All that will leave Labour with a problem. On current forecasts, and especially with an extra £17.5bn borrowing over five years to fund the green prosperity plan, this leaves literally no room – within the fiscal rule that Labour has signed up to – for any more spending than planned by the current government. And those plans do involve cuts both to investment spending and to spending on unprotected public services. Yet Sir Keir Starmer effectively ruled out such cuts. How they will square the circle in government we do not know. | | | |
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