| US election 09:28 - Nov 4 with 10164 views | _clive_baker_ |
Tempted to stay up and watch it tomorrow as I do enjoy the drama. I've had a look at the betting odds just out of interest, seems like Harris is nosing ahead? |  | | |  |
| US election on 13:50 - Nov 4 with 1587 views | PhilTWTD |
| US election on 13:40 - Nov 4 by positivity |
where is your evidence that democrats do more electoral fraud than republicans?
there are plenty of reasons why someone needs a postal ballot, and always will be if you're only allowed to vote in person on the day, a blanket ban would be absurd |
Further to that, Americans always seem amazed that we just walk up to a very local polling station and vote in person rather than having to queue for hours, something many people are unable to do. |  | | |
| US election on 13:57 - Nov 4 with 1560 views | Europablue |
| US election on 13:49 - Nov 4 by PhilTWTD |
But if you restrict the electorate, then that's less democratic, particularly when it's done for spurious and transparently self-serving reasons. |
I am sure that you agree that it is highly legitimate to restrict the electorate to those who are entitled to vote. A healthy democracy only runs on trust of the process. We all know that some bad actors will do things that are anti-democratic, all I expect is for the process to be strengthened to be more secure and to maintain the legitimacy of the vote.
This is not a partisan issue. I already said that ID should be very easy and cheap to get (maybe even free and issued to all voter if they don't have a driver's license or passport already). I would hope that any country would want to both prevent voter fraud and to boost voter trust in the integrity of the election. |  | | |
| US election on 14:00 - Nov 4 with 1546 views | Europablue |
| US election on 13:50 - Nov 4 by PhilTWTD |
Further to that, Americans always seem amazed that we just walk up to a very local polling station and vote in person rather than having to queue for hours, something many people are unable to do. |
You have identified a huge problem. I don't think it is necessary to have a national holiday on a voting day, but there should be suitable arrangements made to make sure that voting does not take too much time. | | | |
| US election on 14:01 - Nov 4 with 1549 views | Leaky |
| US election on 09:38 - Nov 4 by ElephantintheRoom |
Dont bother it could be up to a week before a result is declared. Then the lawyers get briefed.
Alternatively wait for Pennsylvania then go to bed and wait a week. |
Wonder if VAR will be involved |  | | |
| US election on 14:01 - Nov 4 with 1549 views | soupytwist |
| US election on 13:31 - Nov 4 by Europablue |
Sorry Phil, but that is a very weak argument. You have to show ID for all sorts of less consequential things than voting. It strikes me as quite implicitly racist to suggest that people of different races are incapable of getting IDs.
The solution is to make IDs very easy and cheap to acquire, not to just not require IDs. |
Doesn't matter how easy and cheap it is to acquire suitable ID, the requirement to show it at a polling station can lead to those with neurodevelopmental disorders being unable to exercise their democratic right themselves.
Just ask the ex-MP for Ipswich. |  | | |
| US election on 14:09 - Nov 4 with 1528 views | soupytwist |
| US election on 14:00 - Nov 4 by Europablue |
You have identified a huge problem. I don't think it is necessary to have a national holiday on a voting day, but there should be suitable arrangements made to make sure that voting does not take too much time. |
Early voting is possible in the US as an alternative to voting on election day. I was in America last week and the local news where I was made a great deal of the number of early votes that had been cast during the time period it was possible to do so - between Oct 26th and Nov 3rd | | | |
| US election on 14:11 - Nov 4 with 1512 views | PhilTWTD |
| US election on 13:57 - Nov 4 by Europablue |
I am sure that you agree that it is highly legitimate to restrict the electorate to those who are entitled to vote. A healthy democracy only runs on trust of the process. We all know that some bad actors will do things that are anti-democratic, all I expect is for the process to be strengthened to be more secure and to maintain the legitimacy of the vote.
This is not a partisan issue. I already said that ID should be very easy and cheap to get (maybe even free and issued to all voter if they don't have a driver's license or passport already). I would hope that any country would want to both prevent voter fraud and to boost voter trust in the integrity of the election. |
It is a partisan issue in that it's only on the table as an attempt at voter suppression as there's been no evidence of a significant issue with people not entitled to vote trying to do so. | | | |
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| US election on 14:22 - Nov 4 with 1461 views | Europablue |
| US election on 14:11 - Nov 4 by PhilTWTD |
It is a partisan issue in that it's only on the table as an attempt at voter suppression as there's been no evidence of a significant issue with people not entitled to vote trying to do so. |
From my point of view, and the point of election legitimacy, the result of who it favours is irrelevant if the correct course of action is taken. Of course, each political side will support or oppose something because it suits them.
I would support the moral case for voter ID even if it goes against the side I would prefer to win. | | | |
| US election on 15:26 - Nov 4 with 1390 views | Guthrum |
| US election on 13:27 - Nov 4 by Europablue |
What you seem to be referring to is voter fraud. It doesn't matter who is more or less likely to benefit, voter fraud needs to be dealt with. Postal ballots are a really weak point. In America you can designate someone to collect your postal ballot on your behalf. It sounds like a good idea to help old or infirm people, but it also allows people to harvest votes. I think the Democrats were doing this better than the Republicans last time out, so the Republicans have probably wised up to this to. Rather than all doing the immoral thing equally as well, why not just make it more secure?
Voter ID is not a problem in all other civilized countries. It does make you worry if you can vote so easily without a second check, that anyone could do the same. Even if you aren't catching many people fraudulently voting, then you still give the voters the reassurance that the vote is being conducted with sufficient security.
Personally, I can't understand the whole concept of actively registering to vote. Surely everyone who is legally entitled to vote should be automatically on the electoral register?
The other thing that concerns me is how much candidates spend on their campaigns and in particular how long a President spends campaigning for his second term while he should be concentrating on his actual job. |
However, if voter fraud of this nature is such an insignificant problem that it does no affect results, there is no necessity for a radical overhaul of the system to prevent it. Particularly if it then causes other issues (on a much larger scale) for legitimate voters. If three cases of fraud are prevented, but in the process ten thousand people are unable to cast their ballots, is that a real improvement? Or increasing perceptions of legitimacy?
That's what it comes down to - perceptions. The losing side citing imagined fraud as a means of challenging the result. But without evidence or involving such small numers the result is unaffected.
What you're suggesting about "harvesting votes" (i.e. assisting people who cannot make it to the polling booth on the day to get their forms in), what is illegal or immoral about that - assuming you don't mean they alter the ballot between collection and submission? Just saves a bit on postage.
With regard to ID, most other countries have a universal system of identity cards. We do not. If you don't drive and lack a passport, it becomes a major issue.
I agree absolutely with the bit about registering to vote and the final paragraph. |  |
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| US election on 16:04 - Nov 4 with 1331 views | Europablue |
| US election on 15:26 - Nov 4 by Guthrum |
However, if voter fraud of this nature is such an insignificant problem that it does no affect results, there is no necessity for a radical overhaul of the system to prevent it. Particularly if it then causes other issues (on a much larger scale) for legitimate voters. If three cases of fraud are prevented, but in the process ten thousand people are unable to cast their ballots, is that a real improvement? Or increasing perceptions of legitimacy?
That's what it comes down to - perceptions. The losing side citing imagined fraud as a means of challenging the result. But without evidence or involving such small numers the result is unaffected.
What you're suggesting about "harvesting votes" (i.e. assisting people who cannot make it to the polling booth on the day to get their forms in), what is illegal or immoral about that - assuming you don't mean they alter the ballot between collection and submission? Just saves a bit on postage.
With regard to ID, most other countries have a universal system of identity cards. We do not. If you don't drive and lack a passport, it becomes a major issue.
I agree absolutely with the bit about registering to vote and the final paragraph. |
I agree with your points about whether such a change really improves the system. Obviously, that is the key issue.
I don't think it is really possible to count fraud that is undetected, so yes the numbers that are detected are low, but if you don't have a way of preventing fraud like ID, then how do you count fraud. I really don't see a huge issue with accepting ID such as a driver's license or passport and issuing a free voter ID to people who don't have either, and anyone who doesn't go to the effort of getting the free ID is not really that fussed about voting. My solution would involve automatic registration for every legal voter, that way more, not less people will be capable of voting.
The problem with vote harvesting is that you have Democrat groups and Republican groups "helping people", but do you really believe they are helping people vote or would you imagine that they are helping people vote for them, and I would imagine there are many instances where people are coerced into voting one way. | | | |
| US election on 16:13 - Nov 4 with 1306 views | positivity |
| US election on 16:04 - Nov 4 by Europablue |
I agree with your points about whether such a change really improves the system. Obviously, that is the key issue.
I don't think it is really possible to count fraud that is undetected, so yes the numbers that are detected are low, but if you don't have a way of preventing fraud like ID, then how do you count fraud. I really don't see a huge issue with accepting ID such as a driver's license or passport and issuing a free voter ID to people who don't have either, and anyone who doesn't go to the effort of getting the free ID is not really that fussed about voting. My solution would involve automatic registration for every legal voter, that way more, not less people will be capable of voting.
The problem with vote harvesting is that you have Democrat groups and Republican groups "helping people", but do you really believe they are helping people vote or would you imagine that they are helping people vote for them, and I would imagine there are many instances where people are coerced into voting one way. |
the answer would be neutral people doing this service, but that would be too "big state" for most republicans.
where is there evidence that people are coerced? more a case of helping disdvantaged voters who are already want to vote for you, surely [Post edited 4 Nov 2024 16:14]
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| US election on 16:17 - Nov 4 with 1284 views | DinDjarin |
| US election on 15:26 - Nov 4 by Guthrum |
However, if voter fraud of this nature is such an insignificant problem that it does no affect results, there is no necessity for a radical overhaul of the system to prevent it. Particularly if it then causes other issues (on a much larger scale) for legitimate voters. If three cases of fraud are prevented, but in the process ten thousand people are unable to cast their ballots, is that a real improvement? Or increasing perceptions of legitimacy?
That's what it comes down to - perceptions. The losing side citing imagined fraud as a means of challenging the result. But without evidence or involving such small numers the result is unaffected.
What you're suggesting about "harvesting votes" (i.e. assisting people who cannot make it to the polling booth on the day to get their forms in), what is illegal or immoral about that - assuming you don't mean they alter the ballot between collection and submission? Just saves a bit on postage.
With regard to ID, most other countries have a universal system of identity cards. We do not. If you don't drive and lack a passport, it becomes a major issue.
I agree absolutely with the bit about registering to vote and the final paragraph. |
There are quite a significant number of fraudulent ballot papers being detected in several Counties across several States.
The fact they are being caught is only a good thing and both parties have thousands of volunteers across all polling stations for this very reason.
Also several legal proceedings happening with regard to closing voting polling stations early, rejecting ballots with no valid date or an expired date among a couple I have read. |  | | |
| US election on 16:23 - Nov 4 with 1275 views | positivity |
| US election on 16:17 - Nov 4 by DinDjarin |
There are quite a significant number of fraudulent ballot papers being detected in several Counties across several States.
The fact they are being caught is only a good thing and both parties have thousands of volunteers across all polling stations for this very reason.
Also several legal proceedings happening with regard to closing voting polling stations early, rejecting ballots with no valid date or an expired date among a couple I have read. |
if this is the case and it's getting picked up, can we look forward to trump conceding graciously if he loses then?
or is it more of a case of getting the excuses in early? | |
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| US election on 17:41 - Nov 4 with 1210 views | reusersfreekicks |
| US election on 13:27 - Nov 4 by Europablue |
What you seem to be referring to is voter fraud. It doesn't matter who is more or less likely to benefit, voter fraud needs to be dealt with. Postal ballots are a really weak point. In America you can designate someone to collect your postal ballot on your behalf. It sounds like a good idea to help old or infirm people, but it also allows people to harvest votes. I think the Democrats were doing this better than the Republicans last time out, so the Republicans have probably wised up to this to. Rather than all doing the immoral thing equally as well, why not just make it more secure?
Voter ID is not a problem in all other civilized countries. It does make you worry if you can vote so easily without a second check, that anyone could do the same. Even if you aren't catching many people fraudulently voting, then you still give the voters the reassurance that the vote is being conducted with sufficient security.
Personally, I can't understand the whole concept of actively registering to vote. Surely everyone who is legally entitled to vote should be automatically on the electoral register?
The other thing that concerns me is how much candidates spend on their campaigns and in particular how long a President spends campaigning for his second term while he should be concentrating on his actual job. |
Smoke and mirrors nonsense. Even the guy Trump tasked with looking into it for him at the last election has said the numbers are tiny.
Repeating Trumpian conspiracy nonsense that the democrats harvested votes like this is no surprise here sadly [Post edited 4 Nov 2024 17:42]
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| US election on 17:46 - Nov 4 with 1201 views | reusersfreekicks |
| US election on 09:56 - Nov 4 by EdwardStone |
I am overly invested in this election.... I kinda feel it is a nodal point for the civilised World
But the tv coverage on Tuesday night and through into Wednesday morning will be heavy on opinions and exit polls with very little in the way of actual results
I think the real picture will emerge in the few days after polling closes....with all the shenanigans and legal challenges that will erupt as hot heads vent their fury
A challenging time ahead methinks |
imo is bad/evil v good/okish
Trump and his fellow oligarchs need to be stopped so they don't turn the US into Russia Lite or even just Russia.
Concerns over Harris's qualities are whataboutery compared to the very real anti-democratic forces at work here | | | |
| US election on 18:42 - Nov 4 with 1128 views | Europablue |
| US election on 17:41 - Nov 4 by reusersfreekicks |
Smoke and mirrors nonsense. Even the guy Trump tasked with looking into it for him at the last election has said the numbers are tiny.
Repeating Trumpian conspiracy nonsense that the democrats harvested votes like this is no surprise here sadly [Post edited 4 Nov 2024 17:42]
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Did you even read the link I provided to the NBC article that said that the Republicans are playing catch up to follow the strategy that worked for the Democrats? As far as I know, ballot harvesting is legal, I just don't think it should be. | | | |
| US election on 18:47 - Nov 4 with 1120 views | Europablue |
| US election on 17:46 - Nov 4 by reusersfreekicks |
imo is bad/evil v good/okish
Trump and his fellow oligarchs need to be stopped so they don't turn the US into Russia Lite or even just Russia.
Concerns over Harris's qualities are whataboutery compared to the very real anti-democratic forces at work here |
I'm not sure you could point at either side and say that they will destroy the country, it is going to be 4 more years of Trump or 4 more years of Biden with a slight difference.
You sanely can't look at the 4 years of Trump previously and come to the conclusion that he will destroy the country or turn it into Russia. He will certainly look to be involved in less wars.
The thing is that the electorate have seen evidence that Trump in office is not a dictatorship and actually the economy was pretty good, so a lot of voters are heading into the election thinking that it's a rude and obnoxious man who will be good for them and their families versus a seemingly incompetent woman who will be more of the same of the failures of Biden. | | | |
| US election on 18:56 - Nov 4 with 1102 views | DinDjarin |
| US election on 16:23 - Nov 4 by positivity |
if this is the case and it's getting picked up, can we look forward to trump conceding graciously if he loses then?
or is it more of a case of getting the excuses in early? |
No, its legitimate cases of fraudulent ballots being picked up by the processes put in place.
Which is a good thing is it not? | | | |
| US election on 18:59 - Nov 4 with 1094 views | Guthrum |
| US election on 16:04 - Nov 4 by Europablue |
I agree with your points about whether such a change really improves the system. Obviously, that is the key issue.
I don't think it is really possible to count fraud that is undetected, so yes the numbers that are detected are low, but if you don't have a way of preventing fraud like ID, then how do you count fraud. I really don't see a huge issue with accepting ID such as a driver's license or passport and issuing a free voter ID to people who don't have either, and anyone who doesn't go to the effort of getting the free ID is not really that fussed about voting. My solution would involve automatic registration for every legal voter, that way more, not less people will be capable of voting.
The problem with vote harvesting is that you have Democrat groups and Republican groups "helping people", but do you really believe they are helping people vote or would you imagine that they are helping people vote for them, and I would imagine there are many instances where people are coerced into voting one way. |
A free - secure and easy to access - voter ID alternative to driving license/passport would be an ideal. However, hasn't happened yet.
Registering to vote in the UK is pretty much compulsory. Failing to register if asked can result in a fine.
Collecting people's postal votes is not really so different to the old thing of giving people lifts to the polling station. Which was the closest thing to campaigning candidates/activists were allowed to do on election day.
In terms of coercion, I hope we're not going to have instances of armed people hanging around polling stations and counting centres, as happened in 2020. | |
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| US election on 18:59 - Nov 4 with 1093 views | positivity |
| US election on 18:47 - Nov 4 by Europablue |
I'm not sure you could point at either side and say that they will destroy the country, it is going to be 4 more years of Trump or 4 more years of Biden with a slight difference.
You sanely can't look at the 4 years of Trump previously and come to the conclusion that he will destroy the country or turn it into Russia. He will certainly look to be involved in less wars.
The thing is that the electorate have seen evidence that Trump in office is not a dictatorship and actually the economy was pretty good, so a lot of voters are heading into the election thinking that it's a rude and obnoxious man who will be good for them and their families versus a seemingly incompetent woman who will be more of the same of the failures of Biden. |
it's a different world to 2016, continuing to give the green light to putin/kim, netanyahu and the climate destroyers will have far worse effects on the rest of the world (including europe) than then
plus he's burrnt so many bridges since 2016; the "adults in the room" restraining him and course -correcting him won't be there any more, he'll surround himself with weak yes-men. he's said himself that he will be a dictator this time around | |
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| US election on 19:00 - Nov 4 with 1092 views | redrickstuhaart |
| US election on 18:47 - Nov 4 by Europablue |
I'm not sure you could point at either side and say that they will destroy the country, it is going to be 4 more years of Trump or 4 more years of Biden with a slight difference.
You sanely can't look at the 4 years of Trump previously and come to the conclusion that he will destroy the country or turn it into Russia. He will certainly look to be involved in less wars.
The thing is that the electorate have seen evidence that Trump in office is not a dictatorship and actually the economy was pretty good, so a lot of voters are heading into the election thinking that it's a rude and obnoxious man who will be good for them and their families versus a seemingly incompetent woman who will be more of the same of the failures of Biden. |
You really don't understand the damage he did or can do, do you?
Cosying up to Russia? Threatening the Chinese. Talking utter nonsense, embarrassing the nation on the world stage, encouraging and tacitly supporting division and hatred, normalising dishonesty and bluster in place of integrity.
See also Boris. | | | |
| US election on 19:02 - Nov 4 with 1085 views | positivity |
| US election on 18:56 - Nov 4 by DinDjarin |
No, its legitimate cases of fraudulent ballots being picked up by the processes put in place.
Which is a good thing is it not? |
and as they're being so effective at picking the problems up, there'll be no cause to throw his toys out of the pram this time if he loses? | |
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| US election on 19:36 - Nov 4 with 1019 views | StokieBlue |
| US election on 18:47 - Nov 4 by Europablue |
I'm not sure you could point at either side and say that they will destroy the country, it is going to be 4 more years of Trump or 4 more years of Biden with a slight difference.
You sanely can't look at the 4 years of Trump previously and come to the conclusion that he will destroy the country or turn it into Russia. He will certainly look to be involved in less wars.
The thing is that the electorate have seen evidence that Trump in office is not a dictatorship and actually the economy was pretty good, so a lot of voters are heading into the election thinking that it's a rude and obnoxious man who will be good for them and their families versus a seemingly incompetent woman who will be more of the same of the failures of Biden. |
I take issue with a number of points you've made but I think the biggest problem is that you're attempting to benchmark future policies based on past actions when a lot has happened since Trump's last term and he's looking more unstable by the hour.
Just today he's voiced the opinion that he would consider implementing a ban on vaccines proposed by RFK Jr as well as the removal of fluoride from the water supply, something RFK Jr has labelled as "industrial waste" [1].
These are horrible and dangerous thoughts and ideas and there is no equivalence on the democrat side for this type of unscientific thinking. To claim both sides can do equal damage is a false equivalence with very little substance behind it.
A study in the Lancet found that vaccines have saved 154m lives over the last 50 years (or 6 lives every minute) and that 101m of those lives were infants [2].
If we look at the US alone, vaccines have saved 1.1m lives and 508m hospitalisations over the last 30 years. If you're more concerned with the economic costs which seems to be a main theme then the study found that 590bn USD was saved in medical costs and 2.7trn USD in societal costs.
You're saying Trump's economic credentials are superior to the democrats but how can someone consider a policy which negates that amount of cost savings as well as saves lives? It doesn't seem that economically savvy to me.
As with nearly everything Trump says, if you take the time to look beneath the rhetoric you usually end up with either a lie or a horrible policy. It's been fairly clear that Trump supporting posters have been keen to steer any debates away from actual policies and towards feelings, narratives and false equivalence attacks on the democrats.
SB
[1]. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/04/election-trump-rfk-jr-vaccines-f
[2]. https://www.lshtm.ac.uk/newsevents/news/2024/expert-comment-vaccines-have-saved-
[3]. https://www.news-medical.net/news/20240812/Childhood-vaccinations-save-trillions |  | | |
| US election on 19:51 - Nov 4 with 956 views | Europablue |
| US election on 18:59 - Nov 4 by positivity |
it's a different world to 2016, continuing to give the green light to putin/kim, netanyahu and the climate destroyers will have far worse effects on the rest of the world (including europe) than then
plus he's burrnt so many bridges since 2016; the "adults in the room" restraining him and course -correcting him won't be there any more, he'll surround himself with weak yes-men. he's said himself that he will be a dictator this time around |
I was totally confident that two concurrent terms would keep the world fairly peaceful. Trump is actually very good at making deals and winning. His main motivation is his ego and that gets stroked the most by adulation and people actually thinking that he did a good job. The only concern I have about Trump in terms of foreign policy is whether he will push to get out of wars that will ultimately be damaging. He doesn't seem to care about the destruction left behind as long as his side wins, so maybe it will be great for America, but not so great for Europe.
A lot of the measures against climate change are just ways of controlling people or feeling good about ourselves. We continue to follow ridiculous policies like stopping oil drilling in the North Sea so that we are carbon neutral only to import energy that we decide counts for the country exporting and not us.
I think he'll surround himself with constructive people who serve his goals and still challenge him rather than people who try to hold power over him.
He said that on the first day after he is elected he will be a dictator and it was a joke because when you are elected to office you get to dictate the agenda.
Don't just assume the worst of the people you dislike.
Anyway, if he wins I hope I am more right, and it actually doesn't turn out to be a disaster. | | | |
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