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“None of the parties have the balls to stop the boats or deport those that have arrived illegally, even those that have been caught raping, robbing and wanting an easy life provided by us tax payers.”
I worry. This is how fascism spreads. It’s normalised through stuff like this that just passes by with a couple of down votes. We get used to it.
18
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 23:03 - May 18 with 827 views
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 19:23 - May 18 by Herbivore
I'm well aware he backtracked on the platform he stood on when he ran for leader, so none of this is new. And as I've said, it shows him to not have very firm principles and to blow in the political winds. But that was 6 years ago now and you can't call someone a liar because they've changed their position over that period of time. You can criticise them for lots of things, but he isn't a liar in the way that the likes of Johnson and Farage are as they will happily stand there and tell you black is white if they think that'll benefit them. Starmer is pretty hopeless, weak, and prone to being reactive (hence the shifting positions) but that's different to the kind of behaviour the likes of Johnson and Farage exhibit.
I'll respond to your other post here so we don't have two conversations running. Again, Starmer is weak, doesn't have great political instincts or strong convictions, and he's moved the Labour party to the right of centre in a frankly daft and doomed attempt to hamstring the Tories and Reform. I don't like the rhetoric on immigration. But right-wing authoritarianism? You're going to need to show your workings here and not just blandly state were heading towards fascism in the UK without any evidence. There was evidence we were creeping that way under the Tories (proroguing parliament, politicising institutions that shouldn't be politicised, seeking to leave the EHRC, clamping down on legitimate protest) but what are your comparable examples from the past 9 months of Labour government.
But changing their position over a period of time suggests a genuine change and a movement towards a new position. This wasn't any of the sort. They never intended to do anything on the pledges list he used to win the leadership. It was designed to win the leadership only.
You cannot lie to your party members (and the wider public) like that and expect it to be seen as just a natural shift in position. It wasn't. It was a cold calculated act of deception. Unfit for office right from that moment and that's before you even get to the rest of the dreadful stuff he's done and overseen.
If anything it is worse behaviour b than Johnson. Johnson is slapdash, unable to take responsibility, prone to lying to cover his backside. But that's not as calculated as Starmer's deceit.
I take your point that we are not yet there with the truly fascist stuff but that's the direction of travel. Starmer's management of his party is authoritarian and undemocratic. Michael Crick is about the only journalist who has been good on covering this. Perhaps because he's retiring.
And all bets are off once Reform form a government.
[Post edited 18 May 23:15]
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Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 00:10 - May 19 with 774 views
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 23:03 - May 18 by jasondozzell
But changing their position over a period of time suggests a genuine change and a movement towards a new position. This wasn't any of the sort. They never intended to do anything on the pledges list he used to win the leadership. It was designed to win the leadership only.
You cannot lie to your party members (and the wider public) like that and expect it to be seen as just a natural shift in position. It wasn't. It was a cold calculated act of deception. Unfit for office right from that moment and that's before you even get to the rest of the dreadful stuff he's done and overseen.
If anything it is worse behaviour b than Johnson. Johnson is slapdash, unable to take responsibility, prone to lying to cover his backside. But that's not as calculated as Starmer's deceit.
I take your point that we are not yet there with the truly fascist stuff but that's the direction of travel. Starmer's management of his party is authoritarian and undemocratic. Michael Crick is about the only journalist who has been good on covering this. Perhaps because he's retiring.
And all bets are off once Reform form a government.
[Post edited 18 May 23:15]
I honestly don’t think Reform will ever form a government. They’re a protest movement headed by a disgusting wind machine supported by losers, weirds and disaffected cretins. They’ve got too many years to stagnate and be found out.
The debate on Starmer v Johnson is both interesting and funny. Talk about a race to the bottom. Sir Kier: his attributes seem to be he isn’t a Tory, Corbyn, threatening (in an obvious way) or the least bit interesting. No problem with the last bit and we know he’s a bit rubbish, but I need to read more to judge whether he’s lied on Johnson’s epic scale.
As for Johnson? Head clown of a troop of them. A real life sack of sht who was lazy, self opinionated, quick to claim credit because he actually has no practical ability whatsoever in anything. He might be a nice bloke. Who cares.
So what are we left with? Not much beyond a hope that the appalling Farage and his bunch of swivel eyed f-wits implode - which I think and of course hope they will. But only if Starmer starts doing more than just gassing on. Action time, Kier!
1
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 07:44 - May 19 with 673 views
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 23:03 - May 18 by jasondozzell
But changing their position over a period of time suggests a genuine change and a movement towards a new position. This wasn't any of the sort. They never intended to do anything on the pledges list he used to win the leadership. It was designed to win the leadership only.
You cannot lie to your party members (and the wider public) like that and expect it to be seen as just a natural shift in position. It wasn't. It was a cold calculated act of deception. Unfit for office right from that moment and that's before you even get to the rest of the dreadful stuff he's done and overseen.
If anything it is worse behaviour b than Johnson. Johnson is slapdash, unable to take responsibility, prone to lying to cover his backside. But that's not as calculated as Starmer's deceit.
I take your point that we are not yet there with the truly fascist stuff but that's the direction of travel. Starmer's management of his party is authoritarian and undemocratic. Michael Crick is about the only journalist who has been good on covering this. Perhaps because he's retiring.
And all bets are off once Reform form a government.
[Post edited 18 May 23:15]
Whether it was calculated deceit or whether he realised when he got the leadership that to make Labour electable he needed to shift away from Corbynite policies is something that very few people know for sure. Commentators, party members, and Labour supporters can all take a view on that. Either way, it shows him up as not having strong principles but whether he's a liar or a reactive, dull pragmatist is more open for debate.
What's not open for debate is that Johnson frequently said things that were demonstrably false, that he and everyone knew to be demonstrably false. Probably the most telling example was when confronted by a new dad on a hospital visit he tried to claim there were no cameras there while they were being filmed and photographed from multiple angles. That tells you everything about him, clear lies just roll off his tongue.
Anyway, this isn't me defending Starmer, I think he's sh!t to be honest, I just don't think it's helpful to lump him in with someone like Johnson who has repeatedly shown himself up as completely dishonest and self-serving. I am not convinced that applies to Starmer and I don't think the evidence you've put forward clearly demonstrates that without making huge unfounded assumptions about his intent.
And we aren't not there yet with the fully fascist stuff, we're nowhere near. Starmer has been crap but he's not bringing in policies that are authoritarian, there's nothing he's done so far as PM that suggests he's going down that route. If Reform gets in, and that's a massive if, what they choose to do is on them. If Starmer was too weak to provide a good alternative, that part is on him, but this is like people blaming Corbyn for the Tories being terrible because not enough people chose to vote for him.
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 00:10 - May 19 by Churchman
I honestly don’t think Reform will ever form a government. They’re a protest movement headed by a disgusting wind machine supported by losers, weirds and disaffected cretins. They’ve got too many years to stagnate and be found out.
The debate on Starmer v Johnson is both interesting and funny. Talk about a race to the bottom. Sir Kier: his attributes seem to be he isn’t a Tory, Corbyn, threatening (in an obvious way) or the least bit interesting. No problem with the last bit and we know he’s a bit rubbish, but I need to read more to judge whether he’s lied on Johnson’s epic scale.
As for Johnson? Head clown of a troop of them. A real life sack of sht who was lazy, self opinionated, quick to claim credit because he actually has no practical ability whatsoever in anything. He might be a nice bloke. Who cares.
So what are we left with? Not much beyond a hope that the appalling Farage and his bunch of swivel eyed f-wits implode - which I think and of course hope they will. But only if Starmer starts doing more than just gassing on. Action time, Kier!
I really hope you're right on Reform. I think people haven't realised what's coming. They are organised, incredibly well funded and operating smartly. They've already managed to make inroads with quite disparate types of voters to build a base. The polling is consistently very strong.
Farage has good political instincts. He's managed to cripple the Tories and now he's coming for a Labour government who are conceding ground to him almost daily.
Starmer Will be gone in a year. The right wing has total control of the party and is doubling down on its catastrophic approach.
0
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 11:50 - May 19 with 562 views
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 07:44 - May 19 by Herbivore
Whether it was calculated deceit or whether he realised when he got the leadership that to make Labour electable he needed to shift away from Corbynite policies is something that very few people know for sure. Commentators, party members, and Labour supporters can all take a view on that. Either way, it shows him up as not having strong principles but whether he's a liar or a reactive, dull pragmatist is more open for debate.
What's not open for debate is that Johnson frequently said things that were demonstrably false, that he and everyone knew to be demonstrably false. Probably the most telling example was when confronted by a new dad on a hospital visit he tried to claim there were no cameras there while they were being filmed and photographed from multiple angles. That tells you everything about him, clear lies just roll off his tongue.
Anyway, this isn't me defending Starmer, I think he's sh!t to be honest, I just don't think it's helpful to lump him in with someone like Johnson who has repeatedly shown himself up as completely dishonest and self-serving. I am not convinced that applies to Starmer and I don't think the evidence you've put forward clearly demonstrates that without making huge unfounded assumptions about his intent.
And we aren't not there yet with the fully fascist stuff, we're nowhere near. Starmer has been crap but he's not bringing in policies that are authoritarian, there's nothing he's done so far as PM that suggests he's going down that route. If Reform gets in, and that's a massive if, what they choose to do is on them. If Starmer was too weak to provide a good alternative, that part is on him, but this is like people blaming Corbyn for the Tories being terrible because not enough people chose to vote for him.
I can understand your point of view even if I disagree with it.
These are very uncertain times and I do think this Labour government has a decidedly undemocratic element to it. Anti subversion laws for instance - where have we seen that before?
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 11:50 - May 19 by jasondozzell
I can understand your point of view even if I disagree with it.
These are very uncertain times and I do think this Labour government has a decidedly undemocratic element to it. Anti subversion laws for instance - where have we seen that before?
Starmer has shifted the Overton window so far right that he's legitimised Reform and Farage. I can't see a way out.
That link presents the views of someone who is not in government, it's not government policy. We've been shifting to the right for years and Labour have been swept up in it, I'm not sure you can say they are the cause, although they could/should have done more to try and counter it.
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 11:50 - May 19 by jasondozzell
I can understand your point of view even if I disagree with it.
These are very uncertain times and I do think this Labour government has a decidedly undemocratic element to it. Anti subversion laws for instance - where have we seen that before?
Starmer has shifted the Overton window so far right that he's legitimised Reform and Farage. I can't see a way out.
"Starmer has shifted the Overton window ..."
this denies the electorate agency. they passively react to being moved. doubtless they also respond to dog whistles. how about instead a large portion of the electorate independently observes the world and independently decides there are things they don't like and want to change. it's almost like crediting them with free will. gits like farage are only then the beneficiaries if other politicians patronise the electorate and chose to ignore their priorities.
[Post edited 19 May 12:48]
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
0
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 12:50 - May 19 with 506 views
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 12:46 - May 19 by lowhouseblue
"Starmer has shifted the Overton window ..."
this denies the electorate agency. they passively react to being moved. doubtless they also respond to dog whistles. how about instead a large portion of the electorate independently observes the world and independently decides there are things they don't like and want to change. it's almost like crediting them with free will. gits like farage are only then the beneficiaries if other politicians patronise the electorate and chose to ignore their priorities.
[Post edited 19 May 12:48]
We're back to Lowhouse's working class voter, who is simultaneously fully capable of entirely autonomous thought and not being influenced by the media or snake oil salesman, while also being so thin skinned and easily swayed that they base their voting decision on the attitude of the libs. I don't think you understand much about the world.
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 13:08 - May 18 by jasondozzell
Exactly! The extreme centre - centrists who still can't bring themselves to admit they were wrong.
If you look at the political past of the Blairite wing of the Labour Party, many of them are former CPGB members or affiliates. The principle of bureaucratic centralism and control freakery was ingrained in to them, they just left the socialism behind. Ironically, it was Corbyn who was accused of Stalinism.
[Post edited 19 May 12:59]
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Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 12:56 - May 19 with 485 views
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 12:50 - May 19 by Herbivore
We're back to Lowhouse's working class voter, who is simultaneously fully capable of entirely autonomous thought and not being influenced by the media or snake oil salesman, while also being so thin skinned and easily swayed that they base their voting decision on the attitude of the libs. I don't think you understand much about the world.
"so thin skinned and easily swayed that they base their voting decision on the attitude of the libs"
i've no idea where you get that from, or really what it means? but i do think that voters carry out a political sniff test and if they don't think a party shares their beliefs or values they don't vote for them. that's not being thin skinned or easily swayed, it's voting for people who share your priorities and feel a bit like you.
i just come from an older tradition on the british left which actually quite likes and respects the people we hope will vote for us.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
0
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 13:03 - May 19 with 457 views
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 11:45 - May 19 by jasondozzell
I really hope you're right on Reform. I think people haven't realised what's coming. They are organised, incredibly well funded and operating smartly. They've already managed to make inroads with quite disparate types of voters to build a base. The polling is consistently very strong.
Farage has good political instincts. He's managed to cripple the Tories and now he's coming for a Labour government who are conceding ground to him almost daily.
Starmer Will be gone in a year. The right wing has total control of the party and is doubling down on its catastrophic approach.
I don't think he will be gone in a year, or even before the next election..
It seems clear to me that "our Wes" is their man because he is a believer in the Labour Together project, and for some reason they think he is a good communicator.
But I don't think they would risk a leadership election because something I read recently indicated that Angela Raynor was the favourite amongst the membership, and she is the last person they would want.
[Post edited 19 May 13:05]
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Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 13:33 - May 19 with 410 views
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 13:03 - May 19 by DJR
I don't think he will be gone in a year, or even before the next election..
It seems clear to me that "our Wes" is their man because he is a believer in the Labour Together project, and for some reason they think he is a good communicator.
But I don't think they would risk a leadership election because something I read recently indicated that Angela Raynor was the favourite amongst the membership, and she is the last person they would want.
[Post edited 19 May 13:05]
I can't see him surviving after next year's elections. They are going to get slaughtered. The jockeying has already started. Wes was the chosen one but he's widely disliked and he's going to lose his seat in 2029. The media in bed with Labour want to think he's good but like them all he's a very mediocre figure and I think they know he's a busted flush. I suspect they will try to rally behind Cooper or McFadden.
Rayner has no principles either and has toed the line for her own career progression at every turn. She'll be more popular with some of the remaining members but frankly who is left as a member? Anyone in their right mind has fled. Rather had her chance after Batley Spen but bottled it.
The lazy narrative will be that Rayner has the common touch and her working class credentials mean that she will oppose Farage successfully but that totally ignores that she's been compromised by and part of the awful right wing hatchet job in the party as much as anyone else. She's also not at all an impressive politician. Poor communicator and no substance.
They are in big trouble.
-1
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 13:38 - May 19 with 397 views
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 13:33 - May 19 by jasondozzell
I can't see him surviving after next year's elections. They are going to get slaughtered. The jockeying has already started. Wes was the chosen one but he's widely disliked and he's going to lose his seat in 2029. The media in bed with Labour want to think he's good but like them all he's a very mediocre figure and I think they know he's a busted flush. I suspect they will try to rally behind Cooper or McFadden.
Rayner has no principles either and has toed the line for her own career progression at every turn. She'll be more popular with some of the remaining members but frankly who is left as a member? Anyone in their right mind has fled. Rather had her chance after Batley Spen but bottled it.
The lazy narrative will be that Rayner has the common touch and her working class credentials mean that she will oppose Farage successfully but that totally ignores that she's been compromised by and part of the awful right wing hatchet job in the party as much as anyone else. She's also not at all an impressive politician. Poor communicator and no substance.
They are in big trouble.
In terms of appeal, Andy Burnham would be the answer but he is to much of a radical and maverick for them.
Interestingly, I was at a hustings in 2015 when Burnham turned up, and he certainly came across as having a certain aura, which was clear even before he spoke..
[Post edited 19 May 13:51]
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Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 13:39 - May 19 with 397 views
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 12:57 - May 19 by lowhouseblue
"so thin skinned and easily swayed that they base their voting decision on the attitude of the libs"
i've no idea where you get that from, or really what it means? but i do think that voters carry out a political sniff test and if they don't think a party shares their beliefs or values they don't vote for them. that's not being thin skinned or easily swayed, it's voting for people who share your priorities and feel a bit like you.
i just come from an older tradition on the british left which actually quite likes and respects the people we hope will vote for us.
Let's not pretend you're from any tradition of the left, mate.
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 13:39 - May 19 by Herbivore
Let's not pretend you're from any tradition of the left, mate.
well i'm prepared to put money on only one of us having a labour party membership card. sweetie.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
0
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 13:44 - May 19 with 373 views
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 11:45 - May 19 by jasondozzell
I really hope you're right on Reform. I think people haven't realised what's coming. They are organised, incredibly well funded and operating smartly. They've already managed to make inroads with quite disparate types of voters to build a base. The polling is consistently very strong.
Farage has good political instincts. He's managed to cripple the Tories and now he's coming for a Labour government who are conceding ground to him almost daily.
Starmer Will be gone in a year. The right wing has total control of the party and is doubling down on its catastrophic approach.
Farage didn't cripple the Tories. The Tories crippled the Tories.
Trust the process. Trust Phil.
1
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 13:45 - May 19 with 373 views
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 13:44 - May 19 by The_Flashing_Smile
Farage didn't cripple the Tories. The Tories crippled the Tories.
Oh the Tories were shambolic. But Farage has played a huge part in their demise. He's a very capable politician. It sticks out because so many aren't!!!!
-1
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 14:00 - May 19 with 327 views
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 13:38 - May 19 by DJR
In terms of appeal, Andy Burnham would be the answer but he is to much of a radical and maverick for them.
Interestingly, I was at a hustings in 2015 when Burnham turned up, and he certainly came across as having a certain aura, which was clear even before he spoke..
[Post edited 19 May 13:51]
Burnham would be interesting. I'm not entirely convinced by him though. I think he's still conformist.
Clive Lewis has at least been more outspoken.
In reality, there is a total dearth of talent and principle.
0
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 14:03 - May 19 with 308 views
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 14:00 - May 19 by Herbivore
And you think that's evidence of being of the left?
yes, but not the online, intolerant, electorate hating left. no membership card needed for that - just demonstrated disdain for everyone else. :-)
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
1
Worried by the state of the UK, this board on 14:35 - May 19 with 247 views
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