| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:31 - Jul 15 with 287 views | MattinLondon |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:11 - Jul 15 by Swansea_Blue |
Labour seem to be shooting themselves in the foot because they rarely talk up their improvements. Whereas the very un-Labourlike things they are doing get huge coverage. They're certainly not as bad as the Tories were though, agreed. On the flip side, they fall well short of what people thought a Labour government might be like. Except for the lefties - they seemed to know exactly what was coming down the tracks. |
Labour, from the start have been up against it - not from incompetence or corruption but from the weight of the tabloid media being against them. And from the BBC love-in with hate-preacher Farage.
When you have that level of hospitality against you, you either have a ‘f**k you’ mentality or try and woo them. Unfortunately for the country, Starmer has tried to woo them resulting in his administration being viewed with contempt from the Labour left as well as anyone right of centre. The right-wingers will never be his friends and nor will the hard left of the Labour Party - their loser mentality will rather see the Tories in than someone like Starmer.
Rather naively I don’t think that it’s too late but Starmer needs to take his gloves off and come out fighting. Don’t try to out Reform the Reform Party but actually govern from a lefty perspective. |  | |  |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:32 - Jul 15 with 289 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:05 - Jul 15 by Herbivore |
When have we ever seen a wealthy developed nation that has the kind of wealth and infrastructure needed to make a more socialist economy work actually given it a go? Using countries like Venezuela as examples is disingenuous. They are not a wealthy country. They, like any other Latin American country that moves left, have to deal with the US acting against their interests at every turn, either overtly through formal or informal sanctions, or covertly through using CIA resources to destabilise them. While the Scandi countries aren't socialist, their model is to the left of ours and they are comparatively wealthy countries. They have their problems, but they're doing better than us on most metrics. |
It’s also somewhat disingenuous to blame external factors, internal corruption, authoritarianism and poor economic policy is to blame for much of Venezuela’s troubles. There are many more successful left leaning governments in South America such as Chile who’ve achieved a good standard of living for the population. Venezuela’s state brutalised their own population in order to maintain power, believed to be the biggest outflow of refugees in the world (ironically many going to Columbia). It’s quite right that they were put under Sanction. Kicking out western companies was akin to shooting themselves in the shin and blaming ‘the West’. It left them without the capital, or skillset to exploit a resource wealthy nation.
Scandinavia too has managed stability and prosperity with a US military presence, and economic influence. |  | | |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:33 - Jul 15 with 285 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 08:40 - Jul 15 by Herbivore |
I was watching Simon Reeve in Colombia the other night, it's a few years old now but a real eye opener in how people running things don't have to follow these debunked ways of doing things that only ever benefit the super rich and nobody else. They went to Medellin where the former mayor had overseen a transformation of the city, basically focusing the vast majority of infrastructure spend on the poorest areas. He built cable cars linking the slums in the hills to the city centre, built arts and concert venues in those same slums to encourage people to go there and to provide job opportunities, ensured local government departments like housing had offices there, and built state of the art schools and health centres. The murder rate there is down 90% and poverty is down 60%.
Now, it's far from perfect and the murder rate will have been contributed to by the waning grip of drug cartels and paramilitary groups in the region, but you can't ignore that by investing more in the poorest areas and by focusing efforts on those at the bottom rather than the top, some pretty amazing things have been achieved there.
Why is it in the west we are so wedded to doing things as we've always done them? We tinker around the edges and keep governing as though it's only those at the top of the food chain that matter and things continue to get worse and worse. This is why people are fed up of mainstream political parties and when the only non-mainstream party that gets any coverage are a bunch of racist charlatans who will only offer the kind of politics we have now but on steroids, it means we're heading to a pretty bleak place.
Feck Labour, basically. Such a massive disappointment. No imagination, no vision, not even a shadow of the values that you might say are traditional Labour values. Sure, they won an election because the Tories were so deeply unpopular, but what's the point if you're then just going to offer basically more of the same? |
The future is @narcho syndicalist! |  |
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| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:35 - Jul 15 with 282 views | Herbivore |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:20 - Jul 15 by blueasfook |
*Checks notes*
USSR? |
Nope. Russia went from being basically a feudal system to trying to implement Marxist socialism without having naturally gone through the technological and industrial advances brought about by capitalism. They spent the next 70 years essentially trying to play catch up to an already industrialised west and had to do it without relying on the globalisation that helped to continually boost economic growth in capitalist countries, particularly post WW2. Again, it's a crap example that gets trotted out thoughtlessly. |  |
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| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:38 - Jul 15 with 267 views | blueasfook |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:35 - Jul 15 by Herbivore |
Nope. Russia went from being basically a feudal system to trying to implement Marxist socialism without having naturally gone through the technological and industrial advances brought about by capitalism. They spent the next 70 years essentially trying to play catch up to an already industrialised west and had to do it without relying on the globalisation that helped to continually boost economic growth in capitalist countries, particularly post WW2. Again, it's a crap example that gets trotted out thoughtlessly. |
All Animals Are Equal but Some Animals Are More Equal Than Others |  |
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| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:40 - Jul 15 with 267 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 08:59 - Jul 15 by blueasfook |
Just remind me how Maduro's socialist regime in Venezuala worked out again? Capitalism isn't ideal I agree but then socialist economic policy doesn't seem to work either. I think the thing you need to eliminate for a truly fair economy that benefits all is human greed |
#owned | |
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| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:46 - Jul 15 with 250 views | flykickingbybgunn |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 08:02 - Jul 15 by Dubtractor |
Yeah, that's probably fair.
It's all so frustrating. Labour basically going out of their way, on a number of issues, to alienate their core support, to try and win votes from people who will never vote for them anyway.
Alongside this you've got the unions calling for strike action on a pay offer of 5.4%, which will get almost no sympathy from the public at all.
All of it laying the ground for a reform government which will make things worse for all concerned.
Absolute fooking shambles.
Edit: for clarity, I support unions and the role they play, but they need to pick the right battles. Demanding an inflation busting pay rise when the public finances are a mess is just daft. [Post edited 15 Jul 8:06]
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There is speculation that he may call a snap election next year with Labour, the Greens, Lib Dems, Scots Nats coalition to defeat a Tory, Reform joining or separately.
The idea also being to put them to the test before Reform is ready.
It seems an odd thing that now we have a multi party parliament they have to screw it all down so that it is still a two horse race. |  | | |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:50 - Jul 15 with 246 views | Herbivore |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:38 - Jul 15 by blueasfook |
All Animals Are Equal but Some Animals Are More Equal Than Others |
That's a work of fiction, mate, but probably a better example than your last two. | |
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| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:51 - Jul 15 with 240 views | blueasfook |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:50 - Jul 15 by Herbivore |
That's a work of fiction, mate, but probably a better example than your last two. |
A work of fiction but remarkably spot on. | |
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| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:52 - Jul 15 with 230 views | mellowblue |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 08:53 - Jul 15 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
They weren’t a mess when Blair/Brown left power, only 70pc debt to gdp. Sadly 15 years of incompetence and corruption has led us here.
As for the rage bait- deregulation was a major component of the Leave campaign, they are just giving this Brexiteer what he voted for. |
Sorry, but the finances were in a shocking state when Labour left the premises. debt had already risen from 35 to 70% in a 4 year period due to Brown's overspending. Darling did his best to hold it together and was a quite sensible chancellor. but over-spending leaves a legacy, hence the austerity years. The 2008 financial collapse also had a bearing, financial bail-outs etc. but trying to pigeon hole all the financial woes to such a strict timeline as the Tories being in office is absurd. | | | |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:55 - Jul 15 with 222 views | Herbivore |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:51 - Jul 15 by blueasfook |
A work of fiction but remarkably spot on. |
Lol at blueas, thinking animals can talk. | |
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| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:57 - Jul 15 with 218 views | DanTheMan |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:38 - Jul 15 by blueasfook |
All Animals Are Equal but Some Animals Are More Equal Than Others |
I know this isn't what you're going for, but it's always amused me that you can use Animal Farm as a criticism for just about any ideology with little difficulty. |  |
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| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:58 - Jul 15 with 216 views | blueasfook |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:55 - Jul 15 by Herbivore |
Lol at blueas, thinking animals can talk. |
Clearly you have never watched Mr Ed. | |
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| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:58 - Jul 15 with 213 views | MattinLondon |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:57 - Jul 15 by DanTheMan |
I know this isn't what you're going for, but it's always amused me that you can use Animal Farm as a criticism for just about any ideology with little difficulty. |
It’s also a very short book. | | | |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:59 - Jul 15 with 210 views | blueasfook |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:57 - Jul 15 by DanTheMan |
I know this isn't what you're going for, but it's always amused me that you can use Animal Farm as a criticism for just about any ideology with little difficulty. |
I'm sure that's how Orwell intended it | |
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| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 10:02 - Jul 15 with 208 views | Herbivore |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:32 - Jul 15 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
It’s also somewhat disingenuous to blame external factors, internal corruption, authoritarianism and poor economic policy is to blame for much of Venezuela’s troubles. There are many more successful left leaning governments in South America such as Chile who’ve achieved a good standard of living for the population. Venezuela’s state brutalised their own population in order to maintain power, believed to be the biggest outflow of refugees in the world (ironically many going to Columbia). It’s quite right that they were put under Sanction. Kicking out western companies was akin to shooting themselves in the shin and blaming ‘the West’. It left them without the capital, or skillset to exploit a resource wealthy nation.
Scandinavia too has managed stability and prosperity with a US military presence, and economic influence. |
There's a difference between left leaning and aiming for fully socialist though. Scandinavian countries are not socialist, they are capitalist countries though with some state ownership. Chile is a capitalist country. Not denying that Venezuela was a bin fire but the US has always been very quick to stamp out anything remotely anti-capitalist in Latin America, it's been the case for decades. | |
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| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 10:02 - Jul 15 with 208 views | DanTheMan |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:59 - Jul 15 by blueasfook |
I'm sure that's how Orwell intended it |
I think that he was advocating for what he saw as democratic socialism. But that's a guess, a problem with the book it doesn't really advocate for anything, it's more a "don't do this".
In the Ukrainian edition for the book he put:
Even if I had the power, I would not wish to interfere in Soviet domestic affairs: I would not condemn Stalin and his associates merely for their barbaric and undemocratic methods. It is quite possible that, even with the best intentions, they could not have acted otherwise under the conditions prevailing there… But since 1930 I had seen little evidence that the USSR was progressing towards anything that one could truly call Socialism… And so for the past ten years I have been convinced that the destruction of the Soviet myth was essential if we wanted a revival of the Socialist movement. | |
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| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 10:05 - Jul 15 with 202 views | Herbivore |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 10:02 - Jul 15 by DanTheMan |
I think that he was advocating for what he saw as democratic socialism. But that's a guess, a problem with the book it doesn't really advocate for anything, it's more a "don't do this".
In the Ukrainian edition for the book he put:
Even if I had the power, I would not wish to interfere in Soviet domestic affairs: I would not condemn Stalin and his associates merely for their barbaric and undemocratic methods. It is quite possible that, even with the best intentions, they could not have acted otherwise under the conditions prevailing there… But since 1930 I had seen little evidence that the USSR was progressing towards anything that one could truly call Socialism… And so for the past ten years I have been convinced that the destruction of the Soviet myth was essential if we wanted a revival of the Socialist movement. |
He was a socialist but on the side of democratic socialism. He saw fascism as a far bigger threat, hence going to Spain to fight against Franco. | |
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| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 10:06 - Jul 15 with 202 views | NthQldITFC |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 08:40 - Jul 15 by Herbivore |
I was watching Simon Reeve in Colombia the other night, it's a few years old now but a real eye opener in how people running things don't have to follow these debunked ways of doing things that only ever benefit the super rich and nobody else. They went to Medellin where the former mayor had overseen a transformation of the city, basically focusing the vast majority of infrastructure spend on the poorest areas. He built cable cars linking the slums in the hills to the city centre, built arts and concert venues in those same slums to encourage people to go there and to provide job opportunities, ensured local government departments like housing had offices there, and built state of the art schools and health centres. The murder rate there is down 90% and poverty is down 60%.
Now, it's far from perfect and the murder rate will have been contributed to by the waning grip of drug cartels and paramilitary groups in the region, but you can't ignore that by investing more in the poorest areas and by focusing efforts on those at the bottom rather than the top, some pretty amazing things have been achieved there.
Why is it in the west we are so wedded to doing things as we've always done them? We tinker around the edges and keep governing as though it's only those at the top of the food chain that matter and things continue to get worse and worse. This is why people are fed up of mainstream political parties and when the only non-mainstream party that gets any coverage are a bunch of racist charlatans who will only offer the kind of politics we have now but on steroids, it means we're heading to a pretty bleak place.
Feck Labour, basically. Such a massive disappointment. No imagination, no vision, not even a shadow of the values that you might say are traditional Labour values. Sure, they won an election because the Tories were so deeply unpopular, but what's the point if you're then just going to offer basically more of the same? |
'Why is it in the west we are so wedded to doing things as we've always done them? We tinker around the edges and keep governing as though it's only those at the top of the food chain that matter and things continue to get worse and worse. This is why people are fed up of mainstream political parties and when the only non-mainstream party that gets any coverage are a bunch of racist charlatans who will only offer the kind of politics we have now but on steroids, it means we're heading to a pretty bleak place. '
That's always the bloody excuse of these career first politicians on issues where they have a moral responsibility to find a solution which absolutely requires challenging the status quo. And we drift towards Armageddon while they fiddle, if I may mix my whatsits.
^ Great paragraph, that, yours I mean, not mine. |  |
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| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 10:08 - Jul 15 with 192 views | NthQldITFC |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 08:51 - Jul 15 by tonybied |
I suspect I was naive; I thought the policies would start off to the right of centre (to gain power), the government would demonstrate its competency, and gain the trust of the Public, before slowly moving back to its more natural position.
This government isn't just turning out to be Tory-lite; it seems it now wants to out-Tory the Tories, leaning more and more right by the day, whilst becoming more and more tone deaf and incompetent. What has happened to Labour? |
Me too. Massive let down. | |
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| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 10:13 - Jul 15 with 186 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 10:02 - Jul 15 by Herbivore |
There's a difference between left leaning and aiming for fully socialist though. Scandinavian countries are not socialist, they are capitalist countries though with some state ownership. Chile is a capitalist country. Not denying that Venezuela was a bin fire but the US has always been very quick to stamp out anything remotely anti-capitalist in Latin America, it's been the case for decades. |
Scandanavia isn’t capitalist it’s a mixed market model with state provision of services. Even their oil and gas E&P is state owned. Sweden has moved to a more free market model, but they aren’t defined as capitalist. I assume you advocate therefore for a centrally planned economy, though handing that much power to the state is a recipe for authoritarianism.
Not to forget the eastern bloc has had an astonishing improvement in living standards since their transition from a centrally planned economy - interesting that barring the odd questionable defector to North Korea - people only ever fled one way… [Post edited 15 Jul 10:16]
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| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 10:20 - Jul 15 with 166 views | blueasfook |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 09:40 - Jul 15 by BanksterDebtSlave |
#owned |
Grown ups are talking. Run along. | |
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| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 10:38 - Jul 15 with 138 views | Herbivore |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 10:13 - Jul 15 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Scandanavia isn’t capitalist it’s a mixed market model with state provision of services. Even their oil and gas E&P is state owned. Sweden has moved to a more free market model, but they aren’t defined as capitalist. I assume you advocate therefore for a centrally planned economy, though handing that much power to the state is a recipe for authoritarianism.
Not to forget the eastern bloc has had an astonishing improvement in living standards since their transition from a centrally planned economy - interesting that barring the odd questionable defector to North Korea - people only ever fled one way… [Post edited 15 Jul 10:16]
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It is capitalist, just not the complete laissez faire capitalism that we favour in the UK and US where virtually everything is privately owned and exploited in the interests of the super rich. The comparisons to the Eastern Bloc from 40 years ago are just noise. The Soviet Union had been on its last legs for a while and had never successfully caught up with Western capitalist countries that had a massive head start on them in terms of industrialisation and that benefited from increasingly global systems that favoured a capitalist model and largely excluded those that were socialist. Our current capitalist model is clearly not working and folks like yourself who point to the Soviet Union and say "see, it could be worse" are part of the problem rather than the solution. | |
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| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 10:48 - Jul 15 with 103 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Everything's going to be alright......'trickle down' is back. on 10:38 - Jul 15 by Herbivore |
It is capitalist, just not the complete laissez faire capitalism that we favour in the UK and US where virtually everything is privately owned and exploited in the interests of the super rich. The comparisons to the Eastern Bloc from 40 years ago are just noise. The Soviet Union had been on its last legs for a while and had never successfully caught up with Western capitalist countries that had a massive head start on them in terms of industrialisation and that benefited from increasingly global systems that favoured a capitalist model and largely excluded those that were socialist. Our current capitalist model is clearly not working and folks like yourself who point to the Soviet Union and say "see, it could be worse" are part of the problem rather than the solution. |
It isn’t capitalist or free market - I’ve studied this stuff, just because you THINK it is doesn’t make it so. What you wrote is also wrong because Poland is projected to surpass the UK and Italy on a per capita basis within the next 10 years despite being held back by communism.
I only jumped in because you seemed to infer Venezuela isn’t at fault for its own sh1t-show. Nobody said things can’t be better than they are either. | | | |
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