| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. 16:47 - Sep 16 with 4649 views | noggin |
Brace yourselves for the “We can’t afford it” overreaction. |  |
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 20:38 - Sep 16 with 1231 views | Pinewoodblue |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 20:28 - Sep 16 by J2BLUE |
Champagne, coke and hookers surely? |
More like a bottle of chateau crap once a month. |  |
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 20:59 - Sep 16 with 1183 views | earlsgreenblue |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 20:21 - Sep 16 by EuanTown |
Remember private pension and state pension age are different things. You can still retire at 65 and claim your private pension. Or earlier if you are lucky enough. |
And yes I have already done that, but, the change of age was grossly unfair as outlined, we all based our retirement on 65yrs not 67yrs, double whammy, 2 x less years of claiming pension & 2 x more years of paying taxes.
Bear in mind I personally had paid 50yrs of taxable income, never had any hand outs, & suddenly the goal posts moved!
But I guess what the country gives out especially to those who’ve not contributed in any way to the collective pot has to come from somewhere! |  | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 21:03 - Sep 16 with 1175 views | DJR |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 20:59 - Sep 16 by earlsgreenblue |
And yes I have already done that, but, the change of age was grossly unfair as outlined, we all based our retirement on 65yrs not 67yrs, double whammy, 2 x less years of claiming pension & 2 x more years of paying taxes.
Bear in mind I personally had paid 50yrs of taxable income, never had any hand outs, & suddenly the goal posts moved!
But I guess what the country gives out especially to those who’ve not contributed in any way to the collective pot has to come from somewhere! |
Mine was delayed by a year but it was much worse for women. |  | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 21:46 - Sep 16 with 1084 views | Swansea_Blue |
£11 whole pounds a week? Outrageous. There’s a danger old folks might spend that, increasing the circulation of money in the economy, supporting wages at their local Dobbies garden centre cafe and recycling 20% of it back in VAT. |  |
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 22:09 - Sep 16 with 1044 views | soupytwist |
Can we please stop making the argument along the lines of "I've paid in so I should be due £x or £y". National insurance has not for decades been, if it ever was, a hypothecated tax reserved for your pension.
Today's taxes pay for today's state pensions and the taxes of 10,20 or 30 years ago paid for the state pensions of those times. |  | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 07:48 - Sep 17 with 626 views | Rimsy |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 18:53 - Sep 16 by jaykay |
not sure how these facts work for state pensions. as of 2023 more people die than people born. at least 92000 in 2022 died just before they receive their state pensions |
That doesn't take into account immigration though. All of those that settle here will age and need a pension, or pension credit. |  |
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 07:56 - Sep 17 with 615 views | WeWereZombies |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 07:48 - Sep 17 by Rimsy |
That doesn't take into account immigration though. All of those that settle here will age and need a pension, or pension credit. |
And most will work and pay their fair share of income tax, national insurance and all will pay value added tax, some will pay inheritance tax as well. |  |
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 08:08 - Sep 17 with 585 views | DJR |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 22:18 - Sep 16 by peterleeblue |
I'm not quite one yet but in fairness its the old codgers who are happy to keep the economy going. At least by and large they spend what they have. [Post edited 16 Sep 22:23]
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My comment was slightly tongue-in-cheek given I will be joining the ranks of the bloody old codgers in a couple of months' time | | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 08:11 - Sep 17 with 581 views | DJR |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 19:15 - Sep 16 by mellowblue |
The result of that would be everyone would safeguard their state pension by investing in their works pension up to the threshold, anything above that would be invested in non pension products, which would force governments to means test, something they want to avoid. |
I was not suggesting removing pension increases on the state pension just not having the triple lock, and given the tax advantages of investing in pensions, I can't see outcome being the behaviour you suggest. [Post edited 17 Sep 8:21]
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 08:17 - Sep 17 with 570 views | witchdoctor |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 16:56 - Sep 16 by J2BLUE |
More than my pay rise this year.
Do you ever post anything other than stirring threads? |
as if… |  | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 08:47 - Sep 17 with 521 views | noggin |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 21:46 - Sep 16 by Swansea_Blue |
£11 whole pounds a week? Outrageous. There’s a danger old folks might spend that, increasing the circulation of money in the economy, supporting wages at their local Dobbies garden centre cafe and recycling 20% of it back in VAT. |
Not to mention the duty they pay on pipe tobacco. My nan must have contributed a fortune to the economy. | |
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 08:48 - Sep 17 with 512 views | WeWereZombies |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 08:08 - Sep 17 by DJR |
My comment was slightly tongue-in-cheek given I will be joining the ranks of the bloody old codgers in a couple of months' time |
Excellent, we need a decent sub for Facters now he has gone off long term injured and looks to be liking life on the treatment table a little too much. You had better get some training in at posting picture quizes and RIPs though. [Post edited 17 Sep 8:50]
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:04 - Sep 17 with 468 views | Rimsy |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 07:56 - Sep 17 by WeWereZombies |
And most will work and pay their fair share of income tax, national insurance and all will pay value added tax, some will pay inheritance tax as well. |
I'm not doubting that. Just saying birth rates are not the only factor that affects pensions down the line. | |
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:14 - Sep 17 with 448 views | mutters |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:04 - Sep 17 by Rimsy |
I'm not doubting that. Just saying birth rates are not the only factor that affects pensions down the line. |
Interesting point on birth rates. Aren't we due for a correction in a few decades as we have a failing birth rate? The number of people we provide pension for now should fall in a few decades? |  |
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:15 - Sep 17 with 445 views | DanTheMan |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 08:47 - Sep 17 by noggin |
Not to mention the duty they pay on pipe tobacco. My nan must have contributed a fortune to the economy. |
The problem is noggin, it is becoming increasingly difficult to pay for.
Right now, we're currently spending ~5% of GDP on pensions and within 50 years, that's going to increase to ~8% in 50 odd years. That'll be double what we spend on education.
We then combine this with the ability to keep people alive for increasingly longer periods, despite increasingly complex health requirements.
We also have a demographic time bomb, with an increasing portion of the population retiring compared to working-age people, combined with low birth rates and people clearly not wanting immigration to cover the gaps.
This is further compounded by people not saving money into their own pensions. I think it's something crazy, like nearly 50% of people put nothing into their own pensions each month.
Now sure, we could just tax people more to pay for it but given people cannot afford to put money into their own pensions, it feels a bit cruel to then say they have to pay for others. And yes, I'd like to see a wealth tax too, but it won't cover this. We're talking £100billion+ would be needed.
We need to have a serious conversation in this country about how we want to deal with this, but I don't think people are ready for it. We saw that with the winter fuel allowance.
I imagine instead we'll just keep kicking up the retirement age into our 70s, which is going to be awful. Sure, we live longer, but our bodies don't age more slowly. Quality of life in your 60s is much better than in your 70s and 80s. |  |
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:18 - Sep 17 with 425 views | mutters |
Another thought I had on the state pension was to effectively pay out people's pension or what they are currently entitled to and let them manage it themselves.
For example if you currently qualify for full state pension (12k per year) then the gov would give you say £250k which should buy an annuity for the same amount (obviously people have different rates due to health etc but as a ball park figure). You then get to invest that into a private pension and that's where the govt responsibilities for pension ends.
It's obviously not as black and white as that (would we see a reduction in NI?) | |
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:19 - Sep 17 with 424 views | DanTheMan |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:14 - Sep 17 by mutters |
Interesting point on birth rates. Aren't we due for a correction in a few decades as we have a failing birth rate? The number of people we provide pension for now should fall in a few decades? |
You'd want a replacement rate for it to be OK, otherwise the retirees will always outnumber the workers without immigration. | |
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:24 - Sep 17 with 399 views | mutters |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:19 - Sep 17 by DanTheMan |
You'd want a replacement rate for it to be OK, otherwise the retirees will always outnumber the workers without immigration. |
I don't all the number but I know we are top heavy at the moment when it comes to an ageing population. You are spot on though you need people paying in to pay the retirees.
Just wait till they have to introduce universal basic income for everybody as the world shifts to a more automated society. It'll be fun trying to find that behemoth! | |
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:55 - Sep 17 with 337 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:19 - Sep 17 by DanTheMan |
You'd want a replacement rate for it to be OK, otherwise the retirees will always outnumber the workers without immigration. |
Immigration hasn’t improved the fiscal situation because the imbalance is too great. It will require immigration to constantly increase in number year on year - as those people will become pensioners too. There simply isn’t enough money being paid into the pot (paying current pensions with current taxes, rather than future pensions is insanity). Any such scheme that existed in the financial sector would be banned by regulators- it’s unsustainable and inevitable it will pop at some point.
State pensions were devised at a time of much lower life expectancy but are no longer fit for purpose. The burden needs to be shifted to the private sector where the funds actually grow rather than go straight out of the door. It’s THE biggest drag on the western world but as others have said electoral suicide - someone need to be brave though as the Danes have done. Ability to claim can be tapered over time and replaced by a means tested income for the poor or those with disabilities etc. | | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 10:01 - Sep 17 with 322 views | Radlett_blue |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:24 - Sep 17 by mutters |
I don't all the number but I know we are top heavy at the moment when it comes to an ageing population. You are spot on though you need people paying in to pay the retirees.
Just wait till they have to introduce universal basic income for everybody as the world shifts to a more automated society. It'll be fun trying to find that behemoth! |
Demographics are near inescapable & while the Uk's aren't good, they are better than those in France or Germany. France has awful public finances & still a huge percentage of people employed by the State, hence its politics are near complete fracture. |  |
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 10:28 - Sep 17 with 275 views | Churchman |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:15 - Sep 17 by DanTheMan |
The problem is noggin, it is becoming increasingly difficult to pay for.
Right now, we're currently spending ~5% of GDP on pensions and within 50 years, that's going to increase to ~8% in 50 odd years. That'll be double what we spend on education.
We then combine this with the ability to keep people alive for increasingly longer periods, despite increasingly complex health requirements.
We also have a demographic time bomb, with an increasing portion of the population retiring compared to working-age people, combined with low birth rates and people clearly not wanting immigration to cover the gaps.
This is further compounded by people not saving money into their own pensions. I think it's something crazy, like nearly 50% of people put nothing into their own pensions each month.
Now sure, we could just tax people more to pay for it but given people cannot afford to put money into their own pensions, it feels a bit cruel to then say they have to pay for others. And yes, I'd like to see a wealth tax too, but it won't cover this. We're talking £100billion+ would be needed.
We need to have a serious conversation in this country about how we want to deal with this, but I don't think people are ready for it. We saw that with the winter fuel allowance.
I imagine instead we'll just keep kicking up the retirement age into our 70s, which is going to be awful. Sure, we live longer, but our bodies don't age more slowly. Quality of life in your 60s is much better than in your 70s and 80s. |
The economy is £3.5tn. We can afford it. U.K. state pension provision is about the worst of all western countries, by a large margin with most of them. They can afford it, why can’t we? I believe it’s more to do with how the government view pensioners, especially ones that have paid in all their lives.
This government sees pensioners as useless mouths that largely don’t vote for them so they, like farmers and certain other sections of our society are fair game - wring out the old codgers - they are a drain on ‘the hard working tax payer’, cluttering hospital beds and surgeries. Just look at Reeves’ spiteful winter fuel nonsense. It was never going to save much money. All it was going to do was create further hardship amongst the poorest. It certainly told us all we needed to know about how they saw pensioners.
But pensioners spend money in the economy. Take that out and it’s hardly going to help anyone. Many, like myself, pay taxes too. A lot of it.
We had best pension provision in the world back in the late 80s. It was a mix of final salary schemes, money purchase schemes, savings, assets and state provision. It broadly worked. Since then successive governments starting with the tories ‘pension holidays’ but especially Blair’s and his numbskull successors has seen pensions as a larder to raid. Pension provision now is a mess.
The triple lock? It was brought in to try and address the pathetic level of state pension provision and in that it’s been largely successful.
The idea ‘I’ve got other priorities. Kids, daily living’ doesn’t wash with me. I know what it’s like to be in my 20s and 30s. I didn’t give a stuff about pensions. Not interested. That was for old crusties. I needed the money now and in any case I’d never get old like the coffin dodgers. Then I reached mid/late 30s and was between jobs and it suddenly dawned on me I might have to rely on state crumbs. So I took provision seriously from then.
I sacrificed spending then for sufficient money now. I do not see why I should be penalised for that by means testing or any other dopey idea. I paid in (I’m guessing more than the majority I’m guessing) so it’s only right that I should get something out. ‘It doesn’t work like that’? I think it does and should. Otherwise they should make paying NI voluntary. Watch the NI £££ collapse then! Alternatively, pay me back all my contributions adjusted to today’s values and me and the govt can call it quits.
Solutions?
I’d end triple lock but link to inflation. Bin Christmas £10 and winter fuel and adjust state pension to the equivalent.
I’d make pension provision compulsory from working age. 16 - if the government says people can vote at that age, they can start saving for a pension. This includes self employed. How? Ive ideas but not thought them through.
First and foremost I’d end this nonsense about not being able to afford it. The government finds money when it needs to, whether it’s £7bn and rising on illegal migration without a peep about the cost by HMG or £billions found by the last shower lining the pockets of their mates during Covid with dodgy contracts and shaky schemes. |  | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 10:31 - Sep 17 with 267 views | DJR |
This is well worth a watch. It shows how much pensioner poverty has come down, and how much extra (£47 billion in current terms) the triple lock will cost in 2070-71 in contrast to basing pension increases on the increase in earnings.
https://news.sky.com/video/analysis-what-is-the-pension-triple-lock-13432281 [Post edited 17 Sep 10:32]
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 10:33 - Sep 17 with 260 views | Swansea_Blue |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 08:47 - Sep 17 by noggin |
Not to mention the duty they pay on pipe tobacco. My nan must have contributed a fortune to the economy. |
Yes and the fuel duty for their Nissan Micra which they use to get to Dobbies.
Pensioners are pretty much the power houses of the UK economy, even if they do clutter up the Post Office. But again, they’re subsidising our national postal service. And propping up paper manufacturers by refusing to go digital. | |
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 10:35 - Sep 17 with 257 views | Radlett_blue |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 10:28 - Sep 17 by Churchman |
The economy is £3.5tn. We can afford it. U.K. state pension provision is about the worst of all western countries, by a large margin with most of them. They can afford it, why can’t we? I believe it’s more to do with how the government view pensioners, especially ones that have paid in all their lives.
This government sees pensioners as useless mouths that largely don’t vote for them so they, like farmers and certain other sections of our society are fair game - wring out the old codgers - they are a drain on ‘the hard working tax payer’, cluttering hospital beds and surgeries. Just look at Reeves’ spiteful winter fuel nonsense. It was never going to save much money. All it was going to do was create further hardship amongst the poorest. It certainly told us all we needed to know about how they saw pensioners.
But pensioners spend money in the economy. Take that out and it’s hardly going to help anyone. Many, like myself, pay taxes too. A lot of it.
We had best pension provision in the world back in the late 80s. It was a mix of final salary schemes, money purchase schemes, savings, assets and state provision. It broadly worked. Since then successive governments starting with the tories ‘pension holidays’ but especially Blair’s and his numbskull successors has seen pensions as a larder to raid. Pension provision now is a mess.
The triple lock? It was brought in to try and address the pathetic level of state pension provision and in that it’s been largely successful.
The idea ‘I’ve got other priorities. Kids, daily living’ doesn’t wash with me. I know what it’s like to be in my 20s and 30s. I didn’t give a stuff about pensions. Not interested. That was for old crusties. I needed the money now and in any case I’d never get old like the coffin dodgers. Then I reached mid/late 30s and was between jobs and it suddenly dawned on me I might have to rely on state crumbs. So I took provision seriously from then.
I sacrificed spending then for sufficient money now. I do not see why I should be penalised for that by means testing or any other dopey idea. I paid in (I’m guessing more than the majority I’m guessing) so it’s only right that I should get something out. ‘It doesn’t work like that’? I think it does and should. Otherwise they should make paying NI voluntary. Watch the NI £££ collapse then! Alternatively, pay me back all my contributions adjusted to today’s values and me and the govt can call it quits.
Solutions?
I’d end triple lock but link to inflation. Bin Christmas £10 and winter fuel and adjust state pension to the equivalent.
I’d make pension provision compulsory from working age. 16 - if the government says people can vote at that age, they can start saving for a pension. This includes self employed. How? Ive ideas but not thought them through.
First and foremost I’d end this nonsense about not being able to afford it. The government finds money when it needs to, whether it’s £7bn and rising on illegal migration without a peep about the cost by HMG or £billions found by the last shower lining the pockets of their mates during Covid with dodgy contracts and shaky schemes. |
Some of your conclusions make huge sense.
yes, end triple lock but link State pension to RPI or whatever.
Yes, make pension compulsory & individualise it like they did in Australia umpteen years ago. The trouble is, if a government did this, the opposition would call it a new tax & social media would go overboard.
Company pensions were going to melt away irrespective of government interference because of the huge, open ended liabilities & the period of ultra low interest rates. Gordon Brown's raid on the scheme's tax benefits didn't help, but they were on the way out anyway. | |
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