| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. 16:47 - Sep 16 with 8275 views | noggin |
Brace yourselves for the “We can’t afford it” overreaction. |  |
| |  |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 23:17 - Sep 17 with 1061 views | Swansea_Blue |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 10:42 - Sep 17 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
The size of the economy is irrelevant - it doesn’t make us wealthy, our per capita wealth has flatlined or fallen for over a decade. We are behind our European peers in many metrics. India has a huge economy- it certainly isn’t wealthy. The £7bn you reference is peanuts compared to the £140bn (and rising) annual cost of the state pension. The Europeans are also reviewing their pension ages and costs because it’s isn’t affordable (civil servant pensions alone have billions in unfunded liabilities).
Again - no one here has suggested current pensioners should be penalised, but the OBR and virtually every forecasting institution agrees the current Ponzi scheme is unsustainable. |
I find it strange that we’ve paid the banks and energy providers hundreds of billions of pounds in the last couple of years but when anyone suggests we pay a little bit extra on ourselves it’s suddenly not possible. It doesn’t feel like the balance is right. |  |
| |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 06:03 - Sep 18 with 854 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 23:17 - Sep 17 by Swansea_Blue |
I find it strange that we’ve paid the banks and energy providers hundreds of billions of pounds in the last couple of years but when anyone suggests we pay a little bit extra on ourselves it’s suddenly not possible. It doesn’t feel like the balance is right. |
Only because for the last 15 years or so successive governments have been completely incompetent. We’ve borrowed record amounts and spaffed it away on dodgy contracts, useless PPE, fraudulent furlough claims which were never pursued, hospitals that were never used, and borrowed to pay for the borrowing we borrowed. We are paying more on borrowing than our education system, years to see a surgeon* and an army that could fit in Wembley. Germany has a hugely lower debt to gdp ratio thanks to coherent economic policy over decades and still went through COVID, andddd was harder hit by the energy crisis (due to reliance on Russian gas).
I just don’t see how the current pension system is sustainable with the aging population, and that’s wider recognised by the pensions industry, OBR, IMF etc. I would rather we shift pensions to private funds and the state concentrate on improving public services. Paying current pensioners through current tax payers is insane, it’s going to require ever more tax payers and flies in the face of sustainablity. I think this is what is happening gradually, but I’d add we need better healthcare so that more people can work, and work for longer (if they choose).
*on a lighter note perhaps the plan is to kill everyone off before they reach retirement… [Post edited 18 Sep 6:24]
|  | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 08:38 - Sep 18 with 711 views | DJR |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 06:03 - Sep 18 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Only because for the last 15 years or so successive governments have been completely incompetent. We’ve borrowed record amounts and spaffed it away on dodgy contracts, useless PPE, fraudulent furlough claims which were never pursued, hospitals that were never used, and borrowed to pay for the borrowing we borrowed. We are paying more on borrowing than our education system, years to see a surgeon* and an army that could fit in Wembley. Germany has a hugely lower debt to gdp ratio thanks to coherent economic policy over decades and still went through COVID, andddd was harder hit by the energy crisis (due to reliance on Russian gas).
I just don’t see how the current pension system is sustainable with the aging population, and that’s wider recognised by the pensions industry, OBR, IMF etc. I would rather we shift pensions to private funds and the state concentrate on improving public services. Paying current pensioners through current tax payers is insane, it’s going to require ever more tax payers and flies in the face of sustainablity. I think this is what is happening gradually, but I’d add we need better healthcare so that more people can work, and work for longer (if they choose).
*on a lighter note perhaps the plan is to kill everyone off before they reach retirement… [Post edited 18 Sep 6:24]
|
The problem it seems to me though is that many don't have the means to save adequately for their retirement, which means that I think the state would have to act as a backstop at the very least for those going into retirement with precious in the form of income.
As it is, the cost of state provision for pensioners is only around 5% and the abolition of the triple lock would free up much more money over time.
Here's a recent paper on the issue.
https://academic.oup.com/oxrep/article/41/1/153/8157938 [Post edited 18 Sep 8:47]
|  | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 08:51 - Sep 18 with 684 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 08:38 - Sep 18 by DJR |
The problem it seems to me though is that many don't have the means to save adequately for their retirement, which means that I think the state would have to act as a backstop at the very least for those going into retirement with precious in the form of income.
As it is, the cost of state provision for pensioners is only around 5% and the abolition of the triple lock would free up much more money over time.
Here's a recent paper on the issue.
https://academic.oup.com/oxrep/article/41/1/153/8157938 [Post edited 18 Sep 8:47]
|
But for context that’s our second biggest spend after healthcare (and projected to rise). Workplace pensions should be enhanced with bigger mandatory contributions (as in much of Scandanavia).if as you suggest people can’t afford to put money aside to save, then they presumably can’t afford more tax to properly fund the state pension. Personal taxes haven’t risen in line with demographic changes. | | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:05 - Sep 18 with 661 views | noggin |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 23:17 - Sep 17 by Swansea_Blue |
I find it strange that we’ve paid the banks and energy providers hundreds of billions of pounds in the last couple of years but when anyone suggests we pay a little bit extra on ourselves it’s suddenly not possible. It doesn’t feel like the balance is right. |
Indeed. 4.7% sounds a lot until you see it's an increase of 11 quid a week on one of the lowest state pensions in Europe.
I would like to see the wealth increase of billionaires in the same period and what they paid in taxes. The more they accumulate, the fewer crumbs there are for the rest of us and so we can't afford to give pensioners a very small monthly income. | |
| |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:32 - Sep 18 with 618 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:05 - Sep 18 by noggin |
Indeed. 4.7% sounds a lot until you see it's an increase of 11 quid a week on one of the lowest state pensions in Europe.
I would like to see the wealth increase of billionaires in the same period and what they paid in taxes. The more they accumulate, the fewer crumbs there are for the rest of us and so we can't afford to give pensioners a very small monthly income. |
Not sure a single person has said pensioners shouldn’t get a rise. Only that we need long term reform of the system. There’s around 157 billionaires in the UK (less per capita than Norway). Even if you took their entire net worth it wouldn’t pay our pensions for a single year (let alone an annual wealth tax). YES they should pay more for equality, but suggesting taxing the wealth of a handful of billionaires will make a huge difference to the UKs fiscal situation is populism really. Baring in mind a lot of assets will be in different tax jurisdictions as well.
Norway (ethics aside) did a great job building their sovereign wealth fund, which continues to grow and Norwegians are set for generations now, if only we’d had some politicians with a little foresight… | | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:38 - Sep 18 with 591 views | Pinewoodblue |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 08:38 - Sep 18 by DJR |
The problem it seems to me though is that many don't have the means to save adequately for their retirement, which means that I think the state would have to act as a backstop at the very least for those going into retirement with precious in the form of income.
As it is, the cost of state provision for pensioners is only around 5% and the abolition of the triple lock would free up much more money over time.
Here's a recent paper on the issue.
https://academic.oup.com/oxrep/article/41/1/153/8157938 [Post edited 18 Sep 8:47]
|
Thanks for sharing that, a good read. |  |
| |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:46 - Sep 18 with 585 views | DJR |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 08:51 - Sep 18 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
But for context that’s our second biggest spend after healthcare (and projected to rise). Workplace pensions should be enhanced with bigger mandatory contributions (as in much of Scandanavia).if as you suggest people can’t afford to put money aside to save, then they presumably can’t afford more tax to properly fund the state pension. Personal taxes haven’t risen in line with demographic changes. |
I am not saying all people can't afford to put aside money but was focusing on the many in this country on the minimum wage or not much above it, and whose prospective pay rises in the future are unlikely to be much higher than the rate of inflation.
People on slightly higher incomes may also be making repaying student loans or have families which further impacts their ability to save for their retirement.
And AI may end up producing a society with large numbers on very low wages or not even employed at all.
As it is, the government is looking at increasing mandatory pension contributions but I just don't think someone on, say, the minimum wage would ever be able to save enough for their retirement meaning the state would always have to take a role in providing an income for them. [Post edited 18 Sep 9:49]
| | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:47 - Sep 18 with 582 views | noggin |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:32 - Sep 18 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Not sure a single person has said pensioners shouldn’t get a rise. Only that we need long term reform of the system. There’s around 157 billionaires in the UK (less per capita than Norway). Even if you took their entire net worth it wouldn’t pay our pensions for a single year (let alone an annual wealth tax). YES they should pay more for equality, but suggesting taxing the wealth of a handful of billionaires will make a huge difference to the UKs fiscal situation is populism really. Baring in mind a lot of assets will be in different tax jurisdictions as well.
Norway (ethics aside) did a great job building their sovereign wealth fund, which continues to grow and Norwegians are set for generations now, if only we’d had some politicians with a little foresight… |
What I'm trying to say is, wealth is being accumulated and that wealth is increasing in value on a daily basis. I'm not comparing the UK to Norway because this is a global problem.
At some point, a lot of this wealth will have to be taken back if we're to avoid the mass poverty that we have, pretty much, ignored in the developing world for years.
How that can be done is another question. I have no idea. The world needs to be much much fairer but greed and desire for power are probably impossible to fight now. | |
| |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 10:49 - Sep 18 with 524 views | Churchman |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 08:38 - Sep 18 by DJR |
The problem it seems to me though is that many don't have the means to save adequately for their retirement, which means that I think the state would have to act as a backstop at the very least for those going into retirement with precious in the form of income.
As it is, the cost of state provision for pensioners is only around 5% and the abolition of the triple lock would free up much more money over time.
Here's a recent paper on the issue.
https://academic.oup.com/oxrep/article/41/1/153/8157938 [Post edited 18 Sep 8:47]
|
A very interesting article. Thanks for posting.
There are a lot of elements to this. In terms of solutions, the obvious ones are raise state pension age and remove triple lock replacing the latter with perhaps a mechanism linking to inflation or average earnings.
Other solutions: euthanasia for those not working. The useless mouths. It’s been done before in certain times and places. The benefits are granny's wealth can be distributed to the hard working tax payer, no state pension necessary, freer NHS, more housing available, emptier buses and no need for bus passes, cheap London travel, Christmas £10 or fuel allowances. Everyone’s a winner, including the government that sees pensioners as tory voters and granny who’s probably a bit miserable anyway.
Another solution is to reduce the age people can work so increasing the number of hard working tax payers. Given voting age is going to 16 how about getting people into work at 14? Most people’s schooling ended then back in the day including my mum and it did her no harm (well not much anyway😃). Those with aptitude can stay on to 16, 18 and further education. Makes sense to me.
That’d get my vote apart from the fact that I’d either have to work or face the cold hillside solution myself.
On a serious note, it is noticeable that with pension freedom, plenty of people are not setting money aside for their retirement. That was obvious from the day pension freedom was announced. Other priorities, waste of money, not interested, only for coffin dodgers.
When people were allowed to choose what they did with their pension pot, many including a friend of mine cashed it in. His view was f it. The state can provide for me and besides I want the money now. Good luck living in the south east on £12k a year, assuming you can get the max. £1000 a month is not a lot when you take into account rocketing living costs. Aya Napa here we don’t come, methinks.
Saving for retirement should be compulsory from the day you start work. It insulates the individual against potential poverty and the state against costs. Can’t afford it? Well it’s a question of priorities. Maybe link saving for retirement directly to state pension in that if you opt out of the former you won’t get the latter and had better polish up the begging bowl.
Your stat re cost of state provision being 5% is interesting. 19% are aged over 65 and 70% of those are no longer in paid work, though I suspect many are engaged in voluntary work, child caring etc. |  | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 11:04 - Sep 18 with 507 views | OldFart71 |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 11:29 - Sep 17 by Radlett_blue |
The government has not "ended final salary schemes". Most state employees still have defined benefit schemes. Employees are very aware of their huge value & become very militant if they are threatened. |
From what I understand Defined Benefits schemes don't guarantee an amount payable on retirement. It depends on the contributions by the employer and the employee and what the outcome of the investments make.
Although a Final Salary scheme also needs investment made by both the employer and employee the amount paid will be based on the final salary of the employee and doesn't waiver from that. | | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 12:02 - Sep 18 with 443 views | Churchman |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 11:04 - Sep 18 by OldFart71 |
From what I understand Defined Benefits schemes don't guarantee an amount payable on retirement. It depends on the contributions by the employer and the employee and what the outcome of the investments make.
Although a Final Salary scheme also needs investment made by both the employer and employee the amount paid will be based on the final salary of the employee and doesn't waiver from that. |
Defined benefits schemes are basically final salary or average schemes. Commonly you and your employer contribute to the the scheme but the risk of where the money is invested basically falls on the employers (eg banks during and after the financial crash)
Defined contributions or money purchase schemes work in a similar sort of way, but the money goes into a pension pot. Often the employer will bung some in and there are tax advantages in saving for retirement in this way. However, unlike final salary/average schemes, you bear the risk of a fund underperforming or the ups and downs of the market.
Money Purchase schemes are now flexible. You used to be confined to taking an annuity at whatever rate was available at the time (a policy that pays out a set amount till you pop your clogs). You could protect it by say index linking but you paid for that. The scheme also died with you unless you added that option and again reduced your actual income from it.
You now have the option of leaving your pension pot alone to I think 75, taking the lot in cash or putting the loot into drawdown where the money remains invested but you can take money where you need to.
The big problem with making pensions flexible is the tendency for those who forget what pension savings are for to take the cash and s0d tomorrow.
For people like me with other pensions and stuff, Stakeholder Pensions have proved a nice little investment from which you can take 25% tax free. Not what uncle Gordon the cheery Chancellor intended but hey ho. Happy days! | | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 12:23 - Sep 18 with 401 views | WeWereZombies |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 12:02 - Sep 18 by Churchman |
Defined benefits schemes are basically final salary or average schemes. Commonly you and your employer contribute to the the scheme but the risk of where the money is invested basically falls on the employers (eg banks during and after the financial crash)
Defined contributions or money purchase schemes work in a similar sort of way, but the money goes into a pension pot. Often the employer will bung some in and there are tax advantages in saving for retirement in this way. However, unlike final salary/average schemes, you bear the risk of a fund underperforming or the ups and downs of the market.
Money Purchase schemes are now flexible. You used to be confined to taking an annuity at whatever rate was available at the time (a policy that pays out a set amount till you pop your clogs). You could protect it by say index linking but you paid for that. The scheme also died with you unless you added that option and again reduced your actual income from it.
You now have the option of leaving your pension pot alone to I think 75, taking the lot in cash or putting the loot into drawdown where the money remains invested but you can take money where you need to.
The big problem with making pensions flexible is the tendency for those who forget what pension savings are for to take the cash and s0d tomorrow.
For people like me with other pensions and stuff, Stakeholder Pensions have proved a nice little investment from which you can take 25% tax free. Not what uncle Gordon the cheery Chancellor intended but hey ho. Happy days! |
On the option of leaving your pension pot alone until you are seventy five I still have a couple of funds in that bracket and from the latest annual statements I think that buying an annuity when seventy five comes around is still possible (and probably desirable) as well keeping the funds going after then as well. I'll check again in four years time and see if the fund rules and legislation have changed.
On your leave the old to die on a hillside suggestion from earlier posts I am spending the weekend with a bunch of mainly retired folk who maintain mountain bothies and I reckon we would survive, maybe even thrive, but finally succumb and expire due to all the nursemaiding we had to do for millennials who wandered onto the hillside for an hour or two and freaked out when they couldn't find a takeaway... |  |
| |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 12:29 - Sep 18 with 384 views | OldFart71 |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 14:45 - Sep 17 by naa |
I don't understand why the triple lock exists. Why does the pension need to rise by more than inflation? It shouldn't slip behind but why does it need to grow by more (admittedly only when inflation is low)?
That is definitely an unsustainable amount. |
I receive the State Pension and whilst I agree that there's really no need to link the SP with three different things and I would agree with it just linked to inflation unfortunately the element of inflation it's linked to is CPI rather than RPI which makes a considerable difference and anyway who actually believes in the inflation figure anyway.
When I go to the shops weekly I very rarely see anything come down in price except perhaps summer clothing when winter is coming or visa versa where winter is over and spring and summer is on the horizon.
Most goods are rising by 20% or more.
I also advocate prescriptions for those attaining the age of 60 being scrapped as many will now work until 66,67 or 68. Certain health issues would be exempt as they are now.
I also see no reason why if a person continues to work after their official retirement age that they should continue paying N.I. on that basis maybe their pension could be enhanced slightly whilst bringing in extra revenue to the exchequer. | | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 12:32 - Sep 18 with 383 views | Churchman |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 12:23 - Sep 18 by WeWereZombies |
On the option of leaving your pension pot alone until you are seventy five I still have a couple of funds in that bracket and from the latest annual statements I think that buying an annuity when seventy five comes around is still possible (and probably desirable) as well keeping the funds going after then as well. I'll check again in four years time and see if the fund rules and legislation have changed.
On your leave the old to die on a hillside suggestion from earlier posts I am spending the weekend with a bunch of mainly retired folk who maintain mountain bothies and I reckon we would survive, maybe even thrive, but finally succumb and expire due to all the nursemaiding we had to do for millennials who wandered onto the hillside for an hour or two and freaked out when they couldn't find a takeaway... |
Yes, check the rules. It’s some time since I’ve looked at this stuff. Whether or not you buy an annuity at 75 or any other age really depends on circumstances, size of the pot, other income etc. I’d have thought you’d get a decent annuity rate because the likelihood of pegging out before they have to pay out too much is that much greater! Harsh but true.
Your second paragraph sounds about right! | | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 14:37 - Sep 18 with 258 views | DJR |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 10:49 - Sep 18 by Churchman |
A very interesting article. Thanks for posting.
There are a lot of elements to this. In terms of solutions, the obvious ones are raise state pension age and remove triple lock replacing the latter with perhaps a mechanism linking to inflation or average earnings.
Other solutions: euthanasia for those not working. The useless mouths. It’s been done before in certain times and places. The benefits are granny's wealth can be distributed to the hard working tax payer, no state pension necessary, freer NHS, more housing available, emptier buses and no need for bus passes, cheap London travel, Christmas £10 or fuel allowances. Everyone’s a winner, including the government that sees pensioners as tory voters and granny who’s probably a bit miserable anyway.
Another solution is to reduce the age people can work so increasing the number of hard working tax payers. Given voting age is going to 16 how about getting people into work at 14? Most people’s schooling ended then back in the day including my mum and it did her no harm (well not much anyway😃). Those with aptitude can stay on to 16, 18 and further education. Makes sense to me.
That’d get my vote apart from the fact that I’d either have to work or face the cold hillside solution myself.
On a serious note, it is noticeable that with pension freedom, plenty of people are not setting money aside for their retirement. That was obvious from the day pension freedom was announced. Other priorities, waste of money, not interested, only for coffin dodgers.
When people were allowed to choose what they did with their pension pot, many including a friend of mine cashed it in. His view was f it. The state can provide for me and besides I want the money now. Good luck living in the south east on £12k a year, assuming you can get the max. £1000 a month is not a lot when you take into account rocketing living costs. Aya Napa here we don’t come, methinks.
Saving for retirement should be compulsory from the day you start work. It insulates the individual against potential poverty and the state against costs. Can’t afford it? Well it’s a question of priorities. Maybe link saving for retirement directly to state pension in that if you opt out of the former you won’t get the latter and had better polish up the begging bowl.
Your stat re cost of state provision being 5% is interesting. 19% are aged over 65 and 70% of those are no longer in paid work, though I suspect many are engaged in voluntary work, child caring etc. |
Your point about pension freedoms is a good one, and apps like Pension Bee appear to make it even easier to act recklessly and without advice.
Sixty years ago they would have appointed a Royal Commission on this sort of issue and got cross-party support for its recommendations but those days are long gone. [Post edited 18 Sep 14:39]
| | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 14:48 - Sep 18 with 236 views | Churchman |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 14:37 - Sep 18 by DJR |
Your point about pension freedoms is a good one, and apps like Pension Bee appear to make it even easier to act recklessly and without advice.
Sixty years ago they would have appointed a Royal Commission on this sort of issue and got cross-party support for its recommendations but those days are long gone. [Post edited 18 Sep 14:39]
|
They certainly do make it ‘attractive’ to act without advice and to use pension savings for other things now. The bottom line is a pension is what it says on the tin. A means of keeping you out of the food banks or having to warm your hands with a candle in old age. It really shouldn’t be used as an investment vehicle or on a new monster truck.
The rules on pensions and how they are marketed should be tightened in my view. | | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 15:53 - Sep 18 with 164 views | Ryorry |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 14:48 - Sep 18 by Churchman |
They certainly do make it ‘attractive’ to act without advice and to use pension savings for other things now. The bottom line is a pension is what it says on the tin. A means of keeping you out of the food banks or having to warm your hands with a candle in old age. It really shouldn’t be used as an investment vehicle or on a new monster truck.
The rules on pensions and how they are marketed should be tightened in my view. |
Having read most but not all of the thread, my basic conclusion is that until a long-term government actually comes up with & applies an integrated plan throughout every aspect of the economy, future state pensions & therefore all but the UK’s wealthiest people, will be at risk.
This would need to incorporate the education system (so kids learn about finances and old age); social housing (so those in essential but low paid jobs like cleaning aren’t paying most of their income on unaffordable rents); health and social care; efficient and affordable transport to get workers to their jobs (in rural areas too, not just conurbations); renationalisation of essential industries like water and energy (so taxpayers’ money gets reinvested in much needed new infrastructure, instead of funnelling directly into the pockets of already very wealthy shareholders) - etc.
Well, I can dream. Must admit there are times when I’d love to be that benevolent dictator!
*edited for grammar [Post edited 18 Sep 15:59]
|  |
| |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 15:53 - Sep 18 with 161 views | chicoazul |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 09:32 - Sep 18 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Not sure a single person has said pensioners shouldn’t get a rise. Only that we need long term reform of the system. There’s around 157 billionaires in the UK (less per capita than Norway). Even if you took their entire net worth it wouldn’t pay our pensions for a single year (let alone an annual wealth tax). YES they should pay more for equality, but suggesting taxing the wealth of a handful of billionaires will make a huge difference to the UKs fiscal situation is populism really. Baring in mind a lot of assets will be in different tax jurisdictions as well.
Norway (ethics aside) did a great job building their sovereign wealth fund, which continues to grow and Norwegians are set for generations now, if only we’d had some politicians with a little foresight… |
Norway is a disgusting country, the second worst climate hypocrite in the world after Leonard di Caprio. A country that has subcontracted its emissions out to the rest of the world. Awful people. |  |
| |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 16:01 - Sep 18 with 152 views | Ryorry |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 15:53 - Sep 18 by chicoazul |
Norway is a disgusting country, the second worst climate hypocrite in the world after Leonard di Caprio. A country that has subcontracted its emissions out to the rest of the world. Awful people. |
Wow! | |
| |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 16:03 - Sep 18 with 150 views | noggin |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 15:53 - Sep 18 by chicoazul |
Norway is a disgusting country, the second worst climate hypocrite in the world after Leonard di Caprio. A country that has subcontracted its emissions out to the rest of the world. Awful people. |
You ok mate? | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
