| Gorton and Denton By-election 19:20 - Feb 15 with 6740 views | gtsb1966 |
Greens odds on to win with Reform 2nd and Labour 3rd. Surely that would be the end of Starmer if that happened. One can only hope. I cant see some members of the party waiting for the annihilation in the May elections.
https://www.oddschecker.com/po |  | | |  |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 19:35 - Feb 16 with 664 views | jasondozzell |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 19:32 - Feb 16 by redrickstuhaart |
Like it or not, its reality.
And this has been the problem with the hard left end of labour throughout- the absence of pragmatism and refusal to deal with reality.
You will sleepwalk us into fascism. |
Incredible. Hard left - you must be joking! Is that the moniker for anything to the left of Reform now?
The absence of pragmatism. It's quite hard to be pragmatic when you've been purged.
Astonishing stuff. |  | | |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 19:37 - Feb 16 with 640 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 19:35 - Feb 16 by jasondozzell |
Incredible. Hard left - you must be joking! Is that the moniker for anything to the left of Reform now?
The absence of pragmatism. It's quite hard to be pragmatic when you've been purged.
Astonishing stuff. |
The hard left wing of labour. Youa re sidestepping the actual point by picking irrelevant stuff to argue about.
I have a friend who is the same. Endless posting anti Starmer stuff, and memes from a select few socialist and anti zionist posters. I agree with some of it, disagree with other bits. But he cannot see that by undermining starmer, and banging on about Corbyn years after the event, he will help us get Farage.
Do you really hate Starmer so much you would prefer that? |  |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 19:44 - Feb 16 with 597 views | Herbivore |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 19:32 - Feb 16 by redrickstuhaart |
Like it or not, its reality.
And this has been the problem with the hard left end of labour throughout- the absence of pragmatism and refusal to deal with reality.
You will sleepwalk us into fascism. |
How's blindly accepting a broken status quo working out? |  |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 19:47 - Feb 16 with 584 views | jasondozzell |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 19:37 - Feb 16 by redrickstuhaart |
The hard left wing of labour. Youa re sidestepping the actual point by picking irrelevant stuff to argue about.
I have a friend who is the same. Endless posting anti Starmer stuff, and memes from a select few socialist and anti zionist posters. I agree with some of it, disagree with other bits. But he cannot see that by undermining starmer, and banging on about Corbyn years after the event, he will help us get Farage.
Do you really hate Starmer so much you would prefer that? |
Corbyn derangement syndrome. He's not been leader for 6 years.
There's nothing hard left about moderate democratic socialism.
It's laughable stuff!
I think the entire Labour party needs to be destroyed at this point. It's beyond repair.
You can't blackmail people into voting for a political vacuum. | | | |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 19:52 - Feb 16 with 561 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 19:47 - Feb 16 by jasondozzell |
Corbyn derangement syndrome. He's not been leader for 6 years.
There's nothing hard left about moderate democratic socialism.
It's laughable stuff!
I think the entire Labour party needs to be destroyed at this point. It's beyond repair.
You can't blackmail people into voting for a political vacuum. |
You seem to be ignoring everything I said rather than addressing the point.
So we are clear- what would you prefer to see- Starmer (or someone else from the labour party as it exists now) or Farage as our next pm. Or Badenoch?
Because Polanski aint gonna win it. | |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 19:53 - Feb 16 with 548 views | Herbivore |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 19:37 - Feb 16 by redrickstuhaart |
The hard left wing of labour. Youa re sidestepping the actual point by picking irrelevant stuff to argue about.
I have a friend who is the same. Endless posting anti Starmer stuff, and memes from a select few socialist and anti zionist posters. I agree with some of it, disagree with other bits. But he cannot see that by undermining starmer, and banging on about Corbyn years after the event, he will help us get Farage.
Do you really hate Starmer so much you would prefer that? |
What's going to usher in Reform is Labour being hopelessly weak and lacking any kind of vision or remotely resembling the Labour Party in anything but name. That's not the fault of "the left", that's the fault of Starmer and his government. That said, the seeds for Reform to grow weren't planted by Labour but they've given them (and the country) a massive heap of fertiliser since they came to power. | |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 19:56 - Feb 16 with 536 views | jasondozzell |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 19:52 - Feb 16 by redrickstuhaart |
You seem to be ignoring everything I said rather than addressing the point.
So we are clear- what would you prefer to see- Starmer (or someone else from the labour party as it exists now) or Farage as our next pm. Or Badenoch?
Because Polanski aint gonna win it. |
I'd like to see Polanski but agree they won't win it.
I've been of opinion for about 2 years that things need to get worse to get better. | | | |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 20:07 - Feb 16 with 511 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 19:56 - Feb 16 by jasondozzell |
I'd like to see Polanski but agree they won't win it.
I've been of opinion for about 2 years that things need to get worse to get better. |
So which would you prefer? A labour pm, Badenoch or Farage. Because they are they options! | |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 20:08 - Feb 16 with 510 views | jasondozzell |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 20:07 - Feb 16 by redrickstuhaart |
So which would you prefer? A labour pm, Badenoch or Farage. Because they are they options! |
I'll be voting Green again. | | | |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 20:15 - Feb 16 with 501 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 20:08 - Feb 16 by jasondozzell |
I'll be voting Green again. |
But, given you agree they wont win, which would you prefer?
Do you really think Starmer is a worse option than Farage? | |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 20:31 - Feb 16 with 470 views | Mullet |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 19:32 - Feb 16 by redrickstuhaart |
Like it or not, its reality.
And this has been the problem with the hard left end of labour throughout- the absence of pragmatism and refusal to deal with reality.
You will sleepwalk us into fascism. |
Precisely that. Principles over people that helped stoke the far right narrative and push people away from vaguely sensible things into extremism and fear. |  |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:07 - Feb 17 with 340 views | jasondozzell |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 20:31 - Feb 16 by Mullet |
Precisely that. Principles over people that helped stoke the far right narrative and push people away from vaguely sensible things into extremism and fear. |
Absolutely bizarre. The party was captured by the Labour right almost 6 years ago and is in government and you're blaming a purged left for its failure?
Take ownership!
What are Starmer's principles by the way? | | | |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:30 - Feb 17 with 312 views | itfcjoe |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 16:53 - Feb 16 by Herbivore |
The 24 hour news cycle and lucrative careers in political commentary, coupled with the rise of social media, has a lot to answer for. That said, decent leaders and competent politicians should have the strength to rise above a lot of the noise that hampers them. |
Yep, feels like it's a pointless cycle of the moment - with all that noise and then Govt by focus groups it seems to misunderstand that all you are getting is the right wing media viewpoint repeated back to you and then acting on it
Is it 15 U Turns? At least half been totally unnecessary |  |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:34 - Feb 17 with 296 views | itfcjoe |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 19:32 - Feb 16 by redrickstuhaart |
Like it or not, its reality.
And this has been the problem with the hard left end of labour throughout- the absence of pragmatism and refusal to deal with reality.
You will sleepwalk us into fascism. |
The Labour party doesn't like people who win elections, all it's revered figures couldn't and didn't do so - purity/pragmatism more important than power. Internal battles more important than the country [Post edited 17 Feb 8:35]
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:37 - Feb 17 with 290 views | itfcjoe |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 19:56 - Feb 16 by jasondozzell |
I'd like to see Polanski but agree they won't win it.
I've been of opinion for about 2 years that things need to get worse to get better. |
That's a privileged position that a vast number of people the left needs to represent can't afford | |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:39 - Feb 17 with 281 views | jasondozzell |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:34 - Feb 17 by itfcjoe |
The Labour party doesn't like people who win elections, all it's revered figures couldn't and didn't do so - purity/pragmatism more important than power. Internal battles more important than the country [Post edited 17 Feb 8:35]
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Tired, lazy analysis that is peddled to try and discredit the left. We're not talking about the crazies here, just decent people who wanted the Labour party to be as it was an intended - a moderate democratic socialist entity.
People have swallowed these ideas from an unquestioning and incurious media. You got your 'sensible, pragmatic' centrist Labour government - how is that working out?
It's far easier to blame it on the bogeymen ('Corbyn was a Czech spy who hates his country and will tax us all into oblivion') then do any real analysis. | | | |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:46 - Feb 17 with 268 views | DJR |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:34 - Feb 17 by itfcjoe |
The Labour party doesn't like people who win elections, all it's revered figures couldn't and didn't do so - purity/pragmatism more important than power. Internal battles more important than the country [Post edited 17 Feb 8:35]
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That's complete nonsense.
Having been a Labour Party member for nearly 40 years, I came across no one in the party who didn't want to win an election.
Having said, the look on Stephen Kinnock's face on election night when Labour did as well as it did in 2017 suggested he didn't want Labour to win that election.  [Post edited 17 Feb 8:51]
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:47 - Feb 17 with 264 views | jasondozzell |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:37 - Feb 17 by itfcjoe |
That's a privileged position that a vast number of people the left needs to represent can't afford |
It's not a position, it's just reality. The status quo which is what the current Labour government represents cannot continue. As Starmer has repeatedly said, he doesn't think the country is broken. We need change. Labour being allowed to pretend to deliver it isn't the solution.
The people the left needs to represent are being sold down the river by the current government.
Little point in winning power if you cause untold damage and govern as idiots. | | | |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:50 - Feb 17 with 255 views | Herbivore |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:37 - Feb 17 by itfcjoe |
That's a privileged position that a vast number of people the left needs to represent can't afford |
I'm going to pull this up because it seems "the left" can't win. When they push their principles they are told to stop trying to tell the electorate what is good for them and it's incredibly arrogant to think they know better than working people. But now you're suggesting the left take a more paternalistic approach and vote Labour even though people on lower incomes and in lower social grades have moved away from Labour (see voter demographics, Labour achieving a higher vote share amongst the more well educated, higher earners, and ABC1 than amongst lower earners, less well educated, and C2DE: https://yougov.co.uk/politics/
I think centrists who vote Labour aren't great at self-reflecting. They blame everything on "the left" without recognising that when Labour pivot to the right, not only do they fail to keep "the left" on board but often they also fail to win over folks from traditional Labour heartlands. They don't win over what used to be the working classes. Instead they appeal to centrist dads with a bit of a conscience who would otherwise vote Lib Dem or for Cameron style Tories but who like the idea of voting Labour because they think they're making a difference when really they're voting for the same failing status quo but with a different colour rosette. It's that failing status quo that's driving people to Reform, not "the left". | |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:52 - Feb 17 with 249 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:30 - Feb 17 by itfcjoe |
Yep, feels like it's a pointless cycle of the moment - with all that noise and then Govt by focus groups it seems to misunderstand that all you are getting is the right wing media viewpoint repeated back to you and then acting on it
Is it 15 U Turns? At least half been totally unnecessary |
It is the fact the U turns have been avoidable that is the root cause of Labour’s problems.
Lack of judgement at the top. |  |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:54 - Feb 17 with 241 views | jasondozzell |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:50 - Feb 17 by Herbivore |
I'm going to pull this up because it seems "the left" can't win. When they push their principles they are told to stop trying to tell the electorate what is good for them and it's incredibly arrogant to think they know better than working people. But now you're suggesting the left take a more paternalistic approach and vote Labour even though people on lower incomes and in lower social grades have moved away from Labour (see voter demographics, Labour achieving a higher vote share amongst the more well educated, higher earners, and ABC1 than amongst lower earners, less well educated, and C2DE: https://yougov.co.uk/politics/
I think centrists who vote Labour aren't great at self-reflecting. They blame everything on "the left" without recognising that when Labour pivot to the right, not only do they fail to keep "the left" on board but often they also fail to win over folks from traditional Labour heartlands. They don't win over what used to be the working classes. Instead they appeal to centrist dads with a bit of a conscience who would otherwise vote Lib Dem or for Cameron style Tories but who like the idea of voting Labour because they think they're making a difference when really they're voting for the same failing status quo but with a different colour rosette. It's that failing status quo that's driving people to Reform, not "the left". |
Great analysis. Spot on. [Post edited 17 Feb 8:54]
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:59 - Feb 17 with 224 views | Herbivore |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:52 - Feb 17 by Pinewoodblue |
It is the fact the U turns have been avoidable that is the root cause of Labour’s problems.
Lack of judgement at the top. |
Coming in and deciding that your first big policy announcement is to take the winter fuel allowance away from pensioners doesn't exactly set a great tone. I actually agree that not every pensioner should get it, there are lots that don't need it, but they hadn't through it through properly and created a cliff edge that meant many pensioners on what most would consider low incomes wouldn't get it anymore. They then seemed surprised that it got a lot of people's backs up. Just pure idiocy and they were then forced to backtrack, but even that they didn't do quickly enough to salvage any credit in the bank. Completely inept government. | |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 09:00 - Feb 17 with 223 views | DJR |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:37 - Feb 17 by itfcjoe |
That's a privileged position that a vast number of people the left needs to represent can't afford |
When people talk about the left in this context what people really seem to be saying is the hard left.
But I doubt the hard left in this country amounts to more than 300,000 people. And what is happening now is that the government's narrative and policies are driving millions of people who are far from hard left into the hands of other non-right wing parties.
As a political strategy (the result of chasing Reform voters) that is a complete failure. [Post edited 17 Feb 9:12]
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 09:11 - Feb 17 with 190 views | DJR |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:37 - Feb 17 by itfcjoe |
That's a privileged position that a vast number of people the left needs to represent can't afford |
The problem though is that left to its own devices this government would be making severe cuts to welfare and disability benefits which would affect the very people you mention.
Don't forget that Rachel Reeves in 2013 she told the Telegraph that Labour would be “tougher” than the Conservatives on benefits.
And she followed it up with this.
https://www.disabilitynewsserv
EDIT: The Bob Ellard mentioned in the article was our local party membership secretary. He was subsequently persuaded to stay on as a member but only because our chair had contacts at HQ and managed to get Reeves to apologise to him.
[Post edited 17 Feb 9:17]
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