| The American pilot missing in Iran 19:53 - Apr 4 with 2116 views | pointofblue |
I can't help but feel the Iranians already have them, but are trying to work out the best way to use the hostage situation in their favour. I believe I read earlier in the week bombing has halted/reduced in the regions whilst the search takes place.
Plus I have no idea how Trump and Hesgeth will react if the pilot is in Iranian custody. They're as likely to carpet bomb the country, blaming the pilot for being caught, than try and negotiate a release. [Post edited 4 Apr 19:53]
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 19:57 - Apr 4 with 1866 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
I would imagine that if they had the pilot they would release footage quite rapidly to show they have.
Whilst Netanyahu clearly acted with total disregard to the safety of the Hamas hostages, I think it would play very poorly at home for Trump if he took that approach. |  |
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 20:01 - Apr 4 with 1832 views | pointofblue |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 19:57 - Apr 4 by Nthsuffolkblue |
I would imagine that if they had the pilot they would release footage quite rapidly to show they have.
Whilst Netanyahu clearly acted with total disregard to the safety of the Hamas hostages, I think it would play very poorly at home for Trump if he took that approach. |
I'm not sure. I think they might hold back to try and judge Trump's reaction to the reveal, or even try to negotiate with the Americans in secret. As said in the OP, I believe bombing in the regions has decreased whilst the searches take place, and it's diverting resources from elsewhere.
If Trump had any consideration for public reaction, I don't think he would have started the war in the first place. | |
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 20:04 - Apr 4 with 1807 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 20:01 - Apr 4 by pointofblue |
I'm not sure. I think they might hold back to try and judge Trump's reaction to the reveal, or even try to negotiate with the Americans in secret. As said in the OP, I believe bombing in the regions has decreased whilst the searches take place, and it's diverting resources from elsewhere.
If Trump had any consideration for public reaction, I don't think he would have started the war in the first place. |
His main consideration is his own supporter base rather than the general public. I think he is very capable of misjudging that too.
He sees himself as the Peace President. And he genuinely believes the path to peace is by force. Showing you are the strongest bully brings peace and should be admired. | |
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 20:13 - Apr 4 with 1774 views | pointofblue |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 20:04 - Apr 4 by Nthsuffolkblue |
His main consideration is his own supporter base rather than the general public. I think he is very capable of misjudging that too.
He sees himself as the Peace President. And he genuinely believes the path to peace is by force. Showing you are the strongest bully brings peace and should be admired. |
Russia getting bogged down in Ukraine didn't seem to act as a warning at all. Let alone, say, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq... | |
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 20:25 - Apr 4 with 1718 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 20:01 - Apr 4 by pointofblue |
I'm not sure. I think they might hold back to try and judge Trump's reaction to the reveal, or even try to negotiate with the Americans in secret. As said in the OP, I believe bombing in the regions has decreased whilst the searches take place, and it's diverting resources from elsewhere.
If Trump had any consideration for public reaction, I don't think he would have started the war in the first place. |
Meanwhile...
'Netanyahu says Israel struck Iran’s petrochemical factories
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu claims Israel today carried out attacks on Iran’s petrochemical factories, which he describes as a major source of cash for Iran’s government.
In a video message posted on his X account, Netanyahu said the attacks on petrochemical plants came after Israel hit Iran’s steel facilities. He claimed Israel has “destroyed 70 percent of [Iran’s] ability to create steel”.
“We will continue to hit them, as I promised,” he added.' |  |
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 20:27 - Apr 4 with 1723 views | pointofblue |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 20:25 - Apr 4 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Meanwhile...
'Netanyahu says Israel struck Iran’s petrochemical factories
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu claims Israel today carried out attacks on Iran’s petrochemical factories, which he describes as a major source of cash for Iran’s government.
In a video message posted on his X account, Netanyahu said the attacks on petrochemical plants came after Israel hit Iran’s steel facilities. He claimed Israel has “destroyed 70 percent of [Iran’s] ability to create steel”.
“We will continue to hit them, as I promised,” he added.' |
I can see Israel continuing to bomb even if the US withdraw. | |
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 21:33 - Apr 4 with 1570 views | pointofblue |
A former hostage interrogator has raised the possibility Iran has captured the pilot but not released the news publicly:
The BBC has been speaking to a former hostage interrogator, whose identity has been protected for safety reasons.
He says the missing airman or woman will want to "get rid of any kit they can", potentially burying it. Their senses will be "extremely heightened" by adrenaline but will need to remember to stay completely out of sight, he says.
Asked what may be hindering the second crew member being found, he says it is unclear if the beacon - a device that can help locate people in rescue missions - is operational.
He also says it's possible the crew member has been captured without Iran revealing it publicly. They "could turn the whole scenario on its head" by using the beacon to draw US forces in, with the intention of taking them out as well, he says.
In terms of the tactics the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) will be using to locate the person, he says: "Drones, dogs, vehicles of any sort" and "firing up locals in the area" who know the terrain.
If caught, Iran will probably put the crew member in front of cameras and could even go for "some kind of trial... to further embarrass the Americans", he says.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/liv | |
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 06:05 - Apr 5 with 1251 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 21:33 - Apr 4 by pointofblue |
A former hostage interrogator has raised the possibility Iran has captured the pilot but not released the news publicly:
The BBC has been speaking to a former hostage interrogator, whose identity has been protected for safety reasons.
He says the missing airman or woman will want to "get rid of any kit they can", potentially burying it. Their senses will be "extremely heightened" by adrenaline but will need to remember to stay completely out of sight, he says.
Asked what may be hindering the second crew member being found, he says it is unclear if the beacon - a device that can help locate people in rescue missions - is operational.
He also says it's possible the crew member has been captured without Iran revealing it publicly. They "could turn the whole scenario on its head" by using the beacon to draw US forces in, with the intention of taking them out as well, he says.
In terms of the tactics the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) will be using to locate the person, he says: "Drones, dogs, vehicles of any sort" and "firing up locals in the area" who know the terrain.
If caught, Iran will probably put the crew member in front of cameras and could even go for "some kind of trial... to further embarrass the Americans", he says.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/liv |
Just confirmed that he’s been rescued. Which is good news all round. Hate to think what Trump would have done had he been captured. |  |
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 06:55 - Apr 5 with 1216 views | ElderGrizzly |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 06:05 - Apr 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Just confirmed that he’s been rescued. Which is good news all round. Hate to think what Trump would have done had he been captured. |
It sounds quite the fairytale.
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 10:58 - Apr 5 with 958 views | pointofblue |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 06:55 - Apr 5 by ElderGrizzly |
It sounds quite the fairytale.
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Hollywood will be cursing the existence of Saving Private Ryan. Not that that will stop them turning this into a film.
The Iranian's are trying to frame this as a failure to the public. With civilians reported to have helped the airman out, you can see why. | |
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 11:25 - Apr 5 with 911 views | mellowblue |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 10:58 - Apr 5 by pointofblue |
Hollywood will be cursing the existence of Saving Private Ryan. Not that that will stop them turning this into a film.
The Iranian's are trying to frame this as a failure to the public. With civilians reported to have helped the airman out, you can see why. |
I'm pleased for the pilot, but not so pleased for the local population. Expect a purge of some kind in that area. Pity that the locals have been dropped in it . | | | |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 14:59 - Apr 5 with 811 views | Ryorry |
I’d want some kind of suicide pill in my emergency kit if I were aircrew in that situation.
Meanwhile, great work by the CIA (don’t think I’ve ever said that before), on whom there’s a fascinating documentary re their origins and the crucial place of women in their history that’s been running on BBC R4Extra.
https://www.radiotimes.com/pro |  |
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 18:18 - Apr 5 with 738 views | Radlett_blue |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 06:05 - Apr 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Just confirmed that he’s been rescued. Which is good news all round. Hate to think what Trump would have done had he been captured. |
This is a great example of how difficult it is for developed countries to fight wars or mount military actions in the modern media. Wars will always involve casualties. If ONE lost pilot leads to a furore, the West should admit it isn't capable of military action that might include the loss of its own citizens. |  |
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 18:31 - Apr 5 with 722 views | Swansea_Blue |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 18:18 - Apr 5 by Radlett_blue |
This is a great example of how difficult it is for developed countries to fight wars or mount military actions in the modern media. Wars will always involve casualties. If ONE lost pilot leads to a furore, the West should admit it isn't capable of military action that might include the loss of its own citizens. |
There must be plenty of fascinating opportunities to study the morality of war. We didn’t hear a peep of regret when the US used a new missile type that fires out shrapnel just above ground level to kill dozens of schoolgirls. Yet they get on their high horses over 1 active service member who would have signed up to the risks. Maybe such studies already exist, although you’re probably treated as a traitor if you question indiscriminate killing by your own side.
Also, maybe we don’t want political leaders capable of military action if that means they’re happy to sacrifice their own citizens. I’d rather a pacifist who wants to build bridges than blow them up. |  |
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 18:40 - Apr 5 with 707 views | Ryorry |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 18:31 - Apr 5 by Swansea_Blue |
There must be plenty of fascinating opportunities to study the morality of war. We didn’t hear a peep of regret when the US used a new missile type that fires out shrapnel just above ground level to kill dozens of schoolgirls. Yet they get on their high horses over 1 active service member who would have signed up to the risks. Maybe such studies already exist, although you’re probably treated as a traitor if you question indiscriminate killing by your own side.
Also, maybe we don’t want political leaders capable of military action if that means they’re happy to sacrifice their own citizens. I’d rather a pacifist who wants to build bridges than blow them up. |
PotW on Beeb R4 just now featured the voice of a survivor of a Japanese PoW camp on the morality of dropping the H-bomb on Japan to bring about VJ Day, which I’m going to re-listen to as I missed a lot of it. | |
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 18:54 - Apr 5 with 685 views | Swansea_Blue |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 18:40 - Apr 5 by Ryorry |
PotW on Beeb R4 just now featured the voice of a survivor of a Japanese PoW camp on the morality of dropping the H-bomb on Japan to bring about VJ Day, which I’m going to re-listen to as I missed a lot of it. |
That’s where it gets difficult isn’t it. Same with our horrific bombing campaigns over German cities. When you’ve got someone whose main goal is to destroy you and conquer your country, you have to resist. And if killing tens or hundreds of thousands is the only way to stop them, what do you do?
I don’t think I’m cut out to be a war time leader. I feel guilty if I step on a bug lol*. I must have been a Bhuddist in a former life.
*Not as bad as a former housemate though, who once slammed on her breaks at a busy junction and got out of the car mid-junction to rescue a frog. I thought I was going to be a gonner, never mind the frog lol | |
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 19:00 - Apr 5 with 665 views | mellowblue |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 18:31 - Apr 5 by Swansea_Blue |
There must be plenty of fascinating opportunities to study the morality of war. We didn’t hear a peep of regret when the US used a new missile type that fires out shrapnel just above ground level to kill dozens of schoolgirls. Yet they get on their high horses over 1 active service member who would have signed up to the risks. Maybe such studies already exist, although you’re probably treated as a traitor if you question indiscriminate killing by your own side.
Also, maybe we don’t want political leaders capable of military action if that means they’re happy to sacrifice their own citizens. I’d rather a pacifist who wants to build bridges than blow them up. |
fragmentation type bombs have been around for many centuries. Bit late to question the morality of using them. Maybe how they are used is more the issue. | | | |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 19:12 - Apr 5 with 649 views | Radlett_blue |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 18:54 - Apr 5 by Swansea_Blue |
That’s where it gets difficult isn’t it. Same with our horrific bombing campaigns over German cities. When you’ve got someone whose main goal is to destroy you and conquer your country, you have to resist. And if killing tens or hundreds of thousands is the only way to stop them, what do you do?
I don’t think I’m cut out to be a war time leader. I feel guilty if I step on a bug lol*. I must have been a Bhuddist in a former life.
*Not as bad as a former housemate though, who once slammed on her breaks at a busy junction and got out of the car mid-junction to rescue a frog. I thought I was going to be a gonner, never mind the frog lol |
I don't think we should go all revisionist over the city bombing in WWII, although the area bombing of non military targets is now fortunately considered unacceptable.
However, Putin knows that the West can't stomach a conflict involving large loss of even soldiers, not civilians. Hence he knew European intervention in Ukraine wouldn't involve loss of life. | |
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 19:32 - Apr 5 with 621 views | Churchman |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 18:54 - Apr 5 by Swansea_Blue |
That’s where it gets difficult isn’t it. Same with our horrific bombing campaigns over German cities. When you’ve got someone whose main goal is to destroy you and conquer your country, you have to resist. And if killing tens or hundreds of thousands is the only way to stop them, what do you do?
I don’t think I’m cut out to be a war time leader. I feel guilty if I step on a bug lol*. I must have been a Bhuddist in a former life.
*Not as bad as a former housemate though, who once slammed on her breaks at a busy junction and got out of the car mid-junction to rescue a frog. I thought I was going to be a gonner, never mind the frog lol |
You take the only option open to you which is what the War Cabinet did in 1941 and Harris with dedication, professionalism and little known care for his crews (nicknamed Butch or Butcher by them) carried through.
The impact on Germany was colossal and RAF and USAF campaign shortened the war, in my view. As the cost in lives was estimated at 400k-500k, the numbers being inaccurate due to loss of records and propaganda by the Germans (see Dresden. After the war the Germans analysed it and came up with the estimate of 18k - 23k. At the time the best guess was 20k but Goebbels bunged a zero on the end and that’s the figure many post war historians took.
400-600k is horrific. But it has to be taken in context of a war that cost 55m lives. The destruction of the Warsaw uprising in 1944 by the Germans killed between 150k and 200k civilians alone. Numbers beyond belief, especially to modern eyes.
The numbers that died in the Japan raids are similar to the German figures. Ghastly. But what was the alternative? The estimate to invade was a bill of 1m allied, mostly American, lives plus millions more Japanese. Weighing the options, you can see why the decision to obliterate Japan’s cities was taken. 100k is the estimate for Tokyo alone.
It should not be forgotten that what happened came about because despotic totalitarian regimes did what they did. 2.5 million slave labourers alone were murdered by the Germans in Germany and conquered territories. The Japanese killed up to 30m civilians from 1927-1945. |  | | |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 19:39 - Apr 5 with 599 views | Radlett_blue |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 19:32 - Apr 5 by Churchman |
You take the only option open to you which is what the War Cabinet did in 1941 and Harris with dedication, professionalism and little known care for his crews (nicknamed Butch or Butcher by them) carried through.
The impact on Germany was colossal and RAF and USAF campaign shortened the war, in my view. As the cost in lives was estimated at 400k-500k, the numbers being inaccurate due to loss of records and propaganda by the Germans (see Dresden. After the war the Germans analysed it and came up with the estimate of 18k - 23k. At the time the best guess was 20k but Goebbels bunged a zero on the end and that’s the figure many post war historians took.
400-600k is horrific. But it has to be taken in context of a war that cost 55m lives. The destruction of the Warsaw uprising in 1944 by the Germans killed between 150k and 200k civilians alone. Numbers beyond belief, especially to modern eyes.
The numbers that died in the Japan raids are similar to the German figures. Ghastly. But what was the alternative? The estimate to invade was a bill of 1m allied, mostly American, lives plus millions more Japanese. Weighing the options, you can see why the decision to obliterate Japan’s cities was taken. 100k is the estimate for Tokyo alone.
It should not be forgotten that what happened came about because despotic totalitarian regimes did what they did. 2.5 million slave labourers alone were murdered by the Germans in Germany and conquered territories. The Japanese killed up to 30m civilians from 1927-1945. |
absolutely, context is everything.
I remember discussing the controversial Dresden bombing with my father, who was a WWII naval pilot & while he agreed that the carnage was horrific, he added "It didn't half make us feel better". | |
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 21:22 - Apr 5 with 505 views | Churchman |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 19:39 - Apr 5 by Radlett_blue |
absolutely, context is everything.
I remember discussing the controversial Dresden bombing with my father, who was a WWII naval pilot & while he agreed that the carnage was horrific, he added "It didn't half make us feel better". |
There was political pressure to do the Dresden raids. The RAF carried out the first two sorties on 13/2/45. The USAF carried out the subsequent raids 14 and 15/2 followed by further attacks in March and April. The Americans have been airbrushed out of history for the destruction of Dresden, helped by Churchill’s political distancing from it despite his involvement of ordering it.
Dresden was always on Bomber Command’s top ten target list from the start of the war. Distance and equipment made it impossible to get at. The city was home to over 100 factories including optics company Zeiss and a major communications hub - one of the reasons the Russians wanted it destroyed along with creating chaos with the 1000s of fleeing refugees in the city.
The U.K. and US were happy to oblige for those reasons and they were also quite happy to demonstrate the impact of air power.
Yes, the carnage was horrific. So was the cost. Over RAF 55000 aircrew lost their lives from 125000 who served. There’s no good in it. It’s ugly, hence the need to shut dictators down as soon as they emerge and to face up and deal with the likes of Trump and Putin however impossible it seems. The lessons are all there. | | | |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 06:58 - Apr 6 with 433 views | ElderGrizzly |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 10:58 - Apr 5 by pointofblue |
Hollywood will be cursing the existence of Saving Private Ryan. Not that that will stop them turning this into a film.
The Iranian's are trying to frame this as a failure to the public. With civilians reported to have helped the airman out, you can see why. |
A long read, but you can see why the story from Trump starts to unravel the more you pick at it
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 08:24 - Apr 6 with 384 views | WinchBlue |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 06:05 - Apr 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Just confirmed that he’s been rescued. Which is good news all round. Hate to think what Trump would have done had he been captured. |
Looks like Israel found him/her. [Post edited 6 Apr 8:24]
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 08:35 - Apr 6 with 368 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 08:24 - Apr 6 by WinchBlue |
Looks like Israel found him/her. [Post edited 6 Apr 8:24]
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It shows how weak the regime in Iran is, that despite offering a life changing reward for the pilot's capture, normal Iranian folks sheltered him for 48 hours giving them a chance of rescue. | |
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| The American pilot missing in Iran on 08:48 - Apr 6 with 352 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The American pilot missing in Iran on 08:35 - Apr 6 by GlasgowBlue |
It shows how weak the regime in Iran is, that despite offering a life changing reward for the pilot's capture, normal Iranian folks sheltered him for 48 hours giving them a chance of rescue. |
Is there some definitive version of what happened, was he hiding in a crevice up a mountain as per Grizzly's link, protected by locals or something else? | |
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