| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle 16:27 - Apr 16 with 3480 views | DJR |
https://www.theguardian.com/po
"Revealed: Mandelson failed vetting but Foreign Office overruled decision
Guardian investigation uncovers decision by UK security officials to deny clearance before Mandelson took up role as US ambassador"
It calls into question the following.
"Ministers and officials are now likely to be pressed over whether they have been fully transparent about the process that led to his appointment.
At a press conference in Hastings on 5 February, Starmer responded to a question from a journalist by saying there had been “security vetting, carried out independently by the security services, which is an intensive exercise that gave him [Mandelson] clearance for the role. You have to go through that before you take up the post.” He added: “Clearly both the due diligence and the security vetting need to be looked at again.”
This appeared to partly put the blame for Mandelson’s appointment on the failure of a vetting process which, according to sources, his government had overruled."
On top of all that Rayner isn't in the clear to challenge, and Streeting has close links to Mandelson. And the right of the party know that someone from their wing (such as Mahmood) won't cut it with the membership, and also despise Rayner.
Still, I suppose it goes to show the advantage of a friend in high places.  I underwent developed vetting nearly 40 years ago, and had I failed, I would have been out on my ass. [Post edited 16 Apr 16:43]
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| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 09:54 - Apr 17 with 715 views | hype313 |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 18:59 - Apr 16 by Guthrum |
Not really. Vetting can happen between a job offer and starting, sometimes even after that. |
No chance, especially at DV level. I've put people through DV vetting for jobs and there isn't a possibility they could start a job if DV Clearance was a pre requisite, especially given the detail it goes into.
It's an incredibly detailed vetting, that you couldn't just give someone a job an the hope that they wing through the process. |  |
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| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 09:59 - Apr 17 with 695 views | BloomBlue |
The bigger question is why can an unelected civil servant moron working in the Foreign Office have more power than a Prime Minister?
It appears this moron decided to overall the vetting decision and not inform the PM. A classic situation of who actually controls the power in this country?
Sack the civil servant and take away their gold plated Tax payer funded pension, sometimes you need to make an example. |  | | |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 10:00 - Apr 17 with 692 views | DJR |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 09:48 - Apr 17 by lowhouseblue |
did you hear darren jones on today? his claim was that the established procedure was that there was a type of vetting which was internal to the foreign office, didn't necessarily determine the foreign office's overall decision of which the vetting was only one part, and the outcome of the vetting was never shared outside the foreign office. even given the general ineptitude of the state, i find that ridiculous. but on that claim of what was the standard foreign office procedure starmer's survival now rests. it is either a true description of how the foreign office operated or it isn't. we will shortly find out. |
I didn't so I'll give it a listen
They appear to be tying themselves up in knots.
What Jones is describing appears to be different to developed vetting which is the responsibility of the Cabinet Office, and which is what I thought the Guardian had established , and the Government admitted, Mandelson failed. | | | |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 10:01 - Apr 17 with 687 views | DJR |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 09:59 - Apr 17 by BloomBlue |
The bigger question is why can an unelected civil servant moron working in the Foreign Office have more power than a Prime Minister?
It appears this moron decided to overall the vetting decision and not inform the PM. A classic situation of who actually controls the power in this country?
Sack the civil servant and take away their gold plated Tax payer funded pension, sometimes you need to make an example. |
Robbins has already been made the escape goat. | | | |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 10:02 - Apr 17 with 660 views | lowhouseblue |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 10:00 - Apr 17 by DJR |
I didn't so I'll give it a listen
They appear to be tying themselves up in knots.
What Jones is describing appears to be different to developed vetting which is the responsibility of the Cabinet Office, and which is what I thought the Guardian had established , and the Government admitted, Mandelson failed. |
it's all very strange - and at, one level or another, (either we're being told lies or the foreign office is a bit of a farce) incredible - but we're going to find out very soon. i'm suspending disbelief until then. [Post edited 17 Apr 10:08]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 10:37 - Apr 17 with 561 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 10:11 - Apr 17 by DJR |
My developed vetting happened a couple of years after I took up my post, even though my access to sensitive information didn't change.
I was told at the time such vetting was expensive and so presumably the view was taken that it wasn't worth spending money on it unless someone was likely to stay in post. It must also have been assumed that those in our office were of good character because we were all lawyers.
Maybe the position is different in you work in an area where there are military secrets, but I was based in Whitehall and the information I had access to was mainly confined to the political/economic/governmental field. [Post edited 17 Apr 11:17]
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We used to have the balance of cost vs readiness with consultants that were used within the FCDO and colleagues who were at the MoD.
As you'll know it isn't a quick exercise and I think people don't quite realise how intrusive it can be to go through the process either.
There were a lot of 'efficiency' projects at GCHQ about 10 years ago. Amazing the number of 'business analysts' that are required...
For what it's worth on Starmer, I can 100% believe he didn't know and very senior Civil Servants will make decisions with plausible deniability for those above them.
Someone will have made it clear it was important he was appointed though, so that's where the investigation should focus.
As much as Starmer lurches from one feck up to another, this I don't think will be on him. [Post edited 17 Apr 10:40]
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| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 11:00 - Apr 17 with 520 views | DJR |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 10:37 - Apr 17 by ElderGrizzly |
We used to have the balance of cost vs readiness with consultants that were used within the FCDO and colleagues who were at the MoD.
As you'll know it isn't a quick exercise and I think people don't quite realise how intrusive it can be to go through the process either.
There were a lot of 'efficiency' projects at GCHQ about 10 years ago. Amazing the number of 'business analysts' that are required...
For what it's worth on Starmer, I can 100% believe he didn't know and very senior Civil Servants will make decisions with plausible deniability for those above them.
Someone will have made it clear it was important he was appointed though, so that's where the investigation should focus.
As much as Starmer lurches from one feck up to another, this I don't think will be on him. [Post edited 17 Apr 10:40]
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In my day it also involved interviewing at least a couple referees which added to the expense and complexity but looking at this, it does not seem that such interviews take place anymore.
https://www.gov.uk/government/ | | | |
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| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 12:52 - Apr 17 with 434 views | GlasgowBlue |
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| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 12:54 - Apr 17 with 427 views | DJR |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 10:02 - Apr 17 by lowhouseblue |
it's all very strange - and at, one level or another, (either we're being told lies or the foreign office is a bit of a farce) incredible - but we're going to find out very soon. i'm suspending disbelief until then. [Post edited 17 Apr 10:08]
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I listened to it and am not sure I am any the wiser.
He seemed also to be saying that Starmer was right to say the process was followed but that that process (leaving the final decision to the FCO) was wrong to be in place, and had been stopped by him last night.
It's always someone or something else's fault. [Post edited 17 Apr 12:55]
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| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 13:11 - Apr 17 with 383 views | BlueSmoke |
As with most scandals, it's the cover up that will end it for Starmer.
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| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 13:20 - Apr 17 with 346 views | lowhouseblue |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 13:09 - Apr 17 by lowhouseblue |
yes that's the line. starmer hasn't misled anyone because the procedure then in place was followed and that's what starmer said. however that procedure was crap and has now been stopped. they're not relying on 'he answered honestly on the basis of what he then knew', instead the line is that what he said was and is factually correct.
so that's the test they've set - was what they have claimed really the then standard foreign office procedure? that's a factual matter and it's either true or false. so we shall see which. |
very interesting interview just now on the world at one with an ex civil servant about the likely foreign office procedure. suggesting that starmer would never have been told the detail of the vetting, and that vetting would never be presented as pass / fail. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 13:33 - Apr 17 with 323 views | DJR |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 13:09 - Apr 17 by lowhouseblue |
yes that's the line. starmer hasn't misled anyone because the procedure then in place was followed and that's what starmer said. however that procedure was crap and has now been stopped. they're not relying on 'he answered honestly on the basis of what he then knew', instead the line is that what he said was and is factually correct.
so that's the test they've set - was what they have claimed really the then standard foreign office procedure? that's a factual matter and it's either true or false. so we shall see which. |
It also seems to me that that line just won't cut it with the public, even if it is standard foreign office policy. | | | |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 13:41 - Apr 17 with 298 views | DJR |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 13:20 - Apr 17 by lowhouseblue |
very interesting interview just now on the world at one with an ex civil servant about the likely foreign office procedure. suggesting that starmer would never have been told the detail of the vetting, and that vetting would never be presented as pass / fail. |
I was just about to wind back BBC Sounds to listen to the whole programme.
What I don't understand is why, following the Humble Address, the gist of the vetting exercise wasn't just about the first thing that No.10 would have wanted to know. Instead, all that seems to have been disclosed is things like tittle-tattle involving Mandelson in emails and the like.
Maybe they thought it suited their purpose better to rely on the process, rather than digging too deep. [Post edited 17 Apr 13:45]
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| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 15:25 - Apr 17 with 231 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
Starting to think Starmer actually wants a Reform government. Whilst most of us know they are full of cranks and people looking to line their pockets, those less engaged will just think f*** what have I got to lose, Tories and Labour are both corrupt and incompetent… |  | | |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 15:38 - Apr 17 with 215 views | hype313 |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 13:11 - Apr 17 by BlueSmoke |
As with most scandals, it's the cover up that will end it for Starmer.
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It's the lies that get you in the end. | |
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| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 16:00 - Apr 17 with 197 views | baxterbasics |
If they really want to "stop the boats" they should put Starmer's desk in the English channel. Nothing will cross it then.
(not my joke, seen versions of it elsewhere today, made me chuckle) |  |
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| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 16:10 - Apr 17 with 182 views | Dubtractor |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 13:11 - Apr 17 by BlueSmoke |
As with most scandals, it's the cover up that will end it for Starmer.
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That 'only just found out' line is as believable as the 'no official involvement' line was from the club about the Farage visit.
It's all pretty insulting to our intelligence, but increasingly the case that people caught out just create bigger lies to cover the initial lie. |  |
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| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 18:20 - Apr 17 with 127 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 13:20 - Apr 17 by lowhouseblue |
very interesting interview just now on the world at one with an ex civil servant about the likely foreign office procedure. suggesting that starmer would never have been told the detail of the vetting, and that vetting would never be presented as pass / fail. |
Yep, good summary of it here
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| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 19:58 - Apr 17 with 68 views | DJR |
Given what has emerged, I do think Starmer acted precipitously in sacking Robbins.
And the following exclusive from the Guardian suggests that were he to follow that precedent, he ought to sack to sack his new Cabinet Secretary, who was supposed to be his saviour.
https://www.theguardian.com/po
"Starmer was kept in dark about Mandelson’s vetting by two other top civil servants
Exclusive: Officials have spent weeks debating whether or not to release highly sensitive information about the affair"
Of course, the easy thing is to blame civil servants but there are factors at play, such as confidentiality and the ongoing Mandelson criminal investigation, which makes me think a lawyer like Starmer shouldn't rush to judgment. [Post edited 17 Apr 20:40]
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| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 20:17 - Apr 17 with 48 views | Ryorry |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 16:00 - Apr 17 by baxterbasics |
If they really want to "stop the boats" they should put Starmer's desk in the English channel. Nothing will cross it then.
(not my joke, seen versions of it elsewhere today, made me chuckle) |
A joke with a very good point.
Never having been PM myself, I don't know how many crucial issues, emails, phone calls, meetings, hours of the day & night they're expected to keep on top of & make decisions about, but I imagine its at least in the hundreds.
Surely they absolutely have to delegate, otherwise they'd never sleep & pretty soon develop mental health problems.
Mandelson should never have been a candidate in the first place, but if it's proven that it was the FCO that messed up with the vetting & failure to inform KS, then I'd have thought David Lammy, who I believe was Foreign Minister at the time, should be the one to get roasted. PMs need to be able to trust their senior Cabinet Ministers. |  |
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| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 20:32 - Apr 17 with 26 views | The_Major |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 20:17 - Apr 17 by Ryorry |
A joke with a very good point.
Never having been PM myself, I don't know how many crucial issues, emails, phone calls, meetings, hours of the day & night they're expected to keep on top of & make decisions about, but I imagine its at least in the hundreds.
Surely they absolutely have to delegate, otherwise they'd never sleep & pretty soon develop mental health problems.
Mandelson should never have been a candidate in the first place, but if it's proven that it was the FCO that messed up with the vetting & failure to inform KS, then I'd have thought David Lammy, who I believe was Foreign Minister at the time, should be the one to get roasted. PMs need to be able to trust their senior Cabinet Ministers. |
I find it incredible the very first conversation wasn't
"How about Peter Mandel...."
"No! Are you nuts?" |  | | |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 20:44 - Apr 17 with 10 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 18:20 - Apr 17 by ElderGrizzly |
Yep, good summary of it here
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edit. Ignore that. Just read the full tweet. [Post edited 17 Apr 20:53]
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| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 20:48 - Apr 17 with 7 views | DJR |
| Starmer and Labour are in a pickle on 20:32 - Apr 17 by The_Major |
I find it incredible the very first conversation wasn't
"How about Peter Mandel...."
"No! Are you nuts?" |
Absolutely. Starmer's error was to do what McSweeney wanted because Mandelson was his chum, especially when there was already a very decent ambassador in post who got on well with Trump. | | | |
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