| 86 Years Ago Today 22:01 - Jul 10 with 2142 views | Churchman |
The Battle of Britain officially began. Attached is a very brief summary.
https://evanevanstours.com/blo
The basic German aim in the summary was to pave the way for invasion. It was considered a serious threat. I believe it was more to subdue the RAF to the point where continuing the war from a British perspective was not an option. Hitler knew Churchill had a lot of opposition from appeasers like Halifax and I don’t see he’d ever risked his army across the Channel without a Navy.
1900 British aircraft piloted by people from so many countries faced around 2900 Germany aircraft piloted. But that wasn’t the true picture. Front line fighters numbered under 600. German front line numbers were also less.
The quality of German aircraft was in general high, particularly the Bf109 and Ju88. Crew quality was even better. Weaknesses included tactical use, range of 109s, finding out the Bf110 could not survive against single engine fighter, too small bomb loads, political in fighting within the Luftwaffe, inability to resupply lost and damaged aircraft and replace crew. Its intel was poor too.
For the RAF, pilot quality varied. There was political infighting between 11 and 12 Group. The Defiant proved to be a failure and British fighters didn’t carry heavy enough armament. However, its organisation, control, resupply and in particular integrated Chain Home defence proved crucial. It fought over its own country so a bailing out pilot would not necessarily be lost.
The battle or campaign to describe it better was basically three phases. Shutting the Channel to draw in the RAF, attacking airfields and from September London and other cities. The RAF suffered the most when the airfields were continuously attacked, but with the squadron rotation system although pilot quality was declining, the Germans were suffering more.
By the end of October, the Luftwaffe knew they had lost. So did Hitler and attention shifted to Russia. The night blitz continued through the winter with all the destruction and death that went with it.
But Britain had survived. Without the Battle of Britain who is to say how the world would look now.
The battle was not just about the pilots who faced the sharp end - death and injury. It was about a whole populations’ will to survive. From factory workers, NAAFI van drivers, mechanics, ARP, firemen, police, radar operators, civilian services, bomber command, the people. Everyone played their part in what became during 1940 total war from a British/allied perspective.
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| 86 Years Ago Today on 22:37 - Jul 10 with 1575 views | Kievthegreat |
Hitler could potentially have been crazy enough to try a landing if the Luftwaffe had been successful. The army and Navy knew that Sealion would be madness because their commanders were mostly professional soldiers/sailors, unlike one particularly spherical Bavarian cokehead at the Luftwaffe. Even with air superiority, the logistics of getting men and equipment on the beaches, let alone keeping them supplied when the Royal Navy could do a suicidal charge into the channel to break up any invasion fleet was wildly optimistic at best. The Nazis never had the ships and never had the specialised equipment and would never have had much prospects.
Fortunately, their air force was headed up a drug addled, delusional sociopath promising the earth without the means to deliver, so distracted Hitler with fairy tales about how he could smash the RAF and Britain on his own. Add to this, the Luftwaffe was not like the older branches and had rampant backstabbing, political infighting and it's command structure was just a dysfunctional extension of the Nazi party (albeit they had very good planes and pilots for commanders to throw away carelessly).
They potentially helped the Allied war effort. What would have happened had German not squandered so many aircrafts and pilots in the run up to Barbarossa? Could they have kept the Red Airforce at bay for long enough to help the army achieve victory? Would they have been better placed to repel allied air raids in 42/43? Who knows, but the Battle of Britain battered the Luftwaffe and distracted from a front where German could have perhaps been decisive victors. |  | | |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 23:29 - Jul 10 with 1478 views | Freddies_Ears |
I was lucky enough to know a lovely old gentleman, grandfather of a friend, who was conscripted into the Wehrmacht in 1939. He explained to 15-year-old me, in the mid-70s, how he saw the white cliffs of Dover in summer 1940, and fully expected to be over the Channel very soon. He then chuckled... " but I had to wait another 35 years to see England". |  | | |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 23:33 - Jul 10 with 1456 views | stonojnr |
and RAF Martlesham, was one of the first airfields in the UK bombed on that day by the Luftwaffe. | | | |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 00:23 - Jul 11 with 1376 views | Churchman |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 23:33 - Jul 10 by stonojnr |
and RAF Martlesham, was one of the first airfields in the UK bombed on that day by the Luftwaffe. |
It was.very much in the front line and attacked on July 10, most notably August 15 and again in October. The Aug 15 attack was the most effective putting the airfield out of action for a couple of days. The Luftwaffe experimented with Bf110 fighter bombers of ZG26 Horst Wessel, accompanied by Ju87 Stukas and a large 109 escort.
They came in at low level, hit the airfield and were away before they could be intercepted. My dad and his brother were out cycling that day and witnessed it from Martlesham’s perimeter. My grandmother went nuts when they got home from what they saw as a big adventure!
Martlesham had a long runway and could be found easily, to anyone who has ever flown over that area it’s easy to see why it was so heavily used and actually attractive as a target.
The thing to remember about the Battle of Britain is that nobody had tried anything quite like it before. Everything was new and learning took place in ‘real time’. The train of the campaign completely exposed the strengths and weaknesses of systems, aircraft, processes and organisation. [Post edited 11 Jul 7:18]
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| 86 Years Ago Today on 05:22 - Jul 11 with 1302 views | Benters |
True story both my In-laws were about during this time.Both lived in Hornchurch.They could see the aircraft form their houses.
My Father in Law got evacuated down to St.Ives in Cornwall that’s another story.
My Mother lost her best friend when a doodle bug landed on the friends house.
But my Mother in Law was a little younger,and her Mother wouldn’t let her go,she was one of a twin and the other died quite young,so there was no way she was letting her go.
Anyway we were talking about nightmares and dreams on our last visit to see the old girl,and she told us something she’d never spoke of before,she reckoned when it was all kicking off over London with the aircraft bombing etc she used to get so scared she’d wet herself.
I just said I’m not surprised and I bet a lot of people were terrified! |  |
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| 86 Years Ago Today on 06:01 - Jul 11 with 1288 views | flykickingbybgunn |
No mention of the other real hero of the time. Radar.
Developed at Bawdsey by Watson-Watt. That enabled the Hurricane and Spitfire pilots to be aware of the German forces movements and to be ready for them.
A time for heroes. |  | | |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 06:25 - Jul 11 with 1254 views | Churchman |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 05:22 - Jul 11 by Benters |
True story both my In-laws were about during this time.Both lived in Hornchurch.They could see the aircraft form their houses.
My Father in Law got evacuated down to St.Ives in Cornwall that’s another story.
My Mother lost her best friend when a doodle bug landed on the friends house.
But my Mother in Law was a little younger,and her Mother wouldn’t let her go,she was one of a twin and the other died quite young,so there was no way she was letting her go.
Anyway we were talking about nightmares and dreams on our last visit to see the old girl,and she told us something she’d never spoke of before,she reckoned when it was all kicking off over London with the aircraft bombing etc she used to get so scared she’d wet herself.
I just said I’m not surprised and I bet a lot of people were terrified! |
My dad and his brother loved the war. As teenagers, they found it exciting. A few days after the Martlesham attack, they watched a Dornier 17 being shot down by three 56 Squadron Hurricanes over Ipswich. It crashed in the park. He always said one of the Hurricanes did a victory roll. I think it was more that the aircraft was damaged by return fire. The Hurricane was put down on Rushmere Golf Course.
https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/21
The Hurricane is never given the credit it deserves. It was about two thirds of Fighter Command’s front line strength and was responsible for a similar percentage of Luftwaffe aircraft shot down. It was actually a development of 1930s Hawker series biplane design. You can see it in its construction.
Because of that and its superb design, it was easier for ground crew to maintain. The Hurricane was a joy to fly, vice free, robust and with a wide undercarriage easy to land. Technically though it was obsolete almost as soon as it went into service. It was improved with metal replacing dope surfaces, better engines, DeHavilland propellers and US high octane fuel and later 20mm cannons, but it’s performance was never going to be competing with what we’d call now next gen aircraft.
However its sheer construction meant its improvements could only go so far. Regardless, this aeroplane served in a variety of roles all over the world from first to last. | | | |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 06:44 - Jul 11 with 1240 views | Benters |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 06:25 - Jul 11 by Churchman |
My dad and his brother loved the war. As teenagers, they found it exciting. A few days after the Martlesham attack, they watched a Dornier 17 being shot down by three 56 Squadron Hurricanes over Ipswich. It crashed in the park. He always said one of the Hurricanes did a victory roll. I think it was more that the aircraft was damaged by return fire. The Hurricane was put down on Rushmere Golf Course.
https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/21
The Hurricane is never given the credit it deserves. It was about two thirds of Fighter Command’s front line strength and was responsible for a similar percentage of Luftwaffe aircraft shot down. It was actually a development of 1930s Hawker series biplane design. You can see it in its construction.
Because of that and its superb design, it was easier for ground crew to maintain. The Hurricane was a joy to fly, vice free, robust and with a wide undercarriage easy to land. Technically though it was obsolete almost as soon as it went into service. It was improved with metal replacing dope surfaces, better engines, DeHavilland propellers and US high octane fuel and later 20mm cannons, but it’s performance was never going to be competing with what we’d call now next gen aircraft.
However its sheer construction meant its improvements could only go so far. Regardless, this aeroplane served in a variety of roles all over the world from first to last. |
Yes it’s funny how people see a Spitfire and it’s like oh look it’s a Spitfire and they are full of love for it,but a Hurricane is like oh look it’s a Hurricane and a shrug of the shoulders.
Both fantastic aircraft though,many moons ago I was at a little show of sorts at The Boxted & Langham Airfield and they had a Mustang doing a few tricks over us,now that has a beautiful engine sound. | |
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| 86 Years Ago Today on 06:45 - Jul 11 with 1246 views | Churchman |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 06:01 - Jul 11 by flykickingbybgunn |
No mention of the other real hero of the time. Radar.
Developed at Bawdsey by Watson-Watt. That enabled the Hurricane and Spitfire pilots to be aware of the German forces movements and to be ready for them.
A time for heroes. |
I refer to it in the line ‘chain home defence’ (the post was already very long).
Radar or RDF was absolutely crucial. Working off radio signals, it could detect well at all bar low altitude and was known as Chain Home. Later systems called Chain Home Low were deloped to cover low altitude.
To operate it required a lot of skill and organisation along with an integrated support network - plotters, observer cops, you name it. Three sets of telephone lines meant it was hard to knock a radar station offline and it was much harder to destroy the towers than you’d have thought.
The ‘Dowding System’ as it was known meant standing patrols need not be flown. You could literally direct your squadrons to the enemy and if the timing was got right. position defending aircraft in the right place above the enemy. Height was everything. As the 1969 film shows, it could go wrong but without it, the battle might well have been lost.
The Germans never appreciated what radar truly was (Britain’s was the first integrated system of its kind in the world) or how the British used it to such brilliant effect. They of course developed their versions when Germany came under attack later, but it was never quite as good despite a lot of the kit being technically superior and better made.
My dad did national service on Radar after the war. I still have his ‘sparks’ badge somewhere. For those interested, the little museum at Bawdsey is worth a look. [Post edited 11 Jul 7:22]
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| 86 Years Ago Today on 07:08 - Jul 11 with 1211 views | Churchman |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 06:44 - Jul 11 by Benters |
Yes it’s funny how people see a Spitfire and it’s like oh look it’s a Spitfire and they are full of love for it,but a Hurricane is like oh look it’s a Hurricane and a shrug of the shoulders.
Both fantastic aircraft though,many moons ago I was at a little show of sorts at The Boxted & Langham Airfield and they had a Mustang doing a few tricks over us,now that has a beautiful engine sound. |
The Spitfire had the look, even to the enemy. It still does. The most beautiful deadly aircraft of its time. It was a truly brilliant design and capable of considerable development thanks in part to it’s relatively large airframe.
Until the griffon engine versions late in the war it was powered by the RR Merlin engine. This fantastic piece of engineering also powered the best versions of the Mustang, hence the sound. [Post edited 11 Jul 7:21]
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| 86 Years Ago Today on 07:38 - Jul 11 with 1127 views | NthQldITFC |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 07:08 - Jul 11 by Churchman |
The Spitfire had the look, even to the enemy. It still does. The most beautiful deadly aircraft of its time. It was a truly brilliant design and capable of considerable development thanks in part to it’s relatively large airframe.
Until the griffon engine versions late in the war it was powered by the RR Merlin engine. This fantastic piece of engineering also powered the best versions of the Mustang, hence the sound. [Post edited 11 Jul 7:21]
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I love the bit in the 1969 film where Goering asks the commanders what they need to get the job done and one replies "A squadron of Spitfires." - Goering's little face!
I don't love it quite as much as the "Good afternoon, my arse!" line though. |  |
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| 86 Years Ago Today on 08:27 - Jul 11 with 1074 views | Churchman |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 07:38 - Jul 11 by NthQldITFC |
I love the bit in the 1969 film where Goering asks the commanders what they need to get the job done and one replies "A squadron of Spitfires." - Goering's little face!
I don't love it quite as much as the "Good afternoon, my arse!" line though. |
It was a line allegedly used in real life to goad Goering by senior pilots Adolf Galland because he was annoyed over the incompetence of Luftwaffe’s higher leadership and the berating he and Molders had taken off fat Hermann.
Goering had been a good squadron commander in WW1 and an Ace, but he was totally unsuited to higher command. He was very much in the thrall of Hitler he was vain, boastful and greedy. Part of it was morphine addiction, part of it his nature. He was actually an evil man who could also charm. His inability to listen or to try and understand meant that fighter pilots telling him the blindingly obvious must have been a frustrating experience.
Molders was to die in an air crash as a passenger in 1941, Galland was to survive the war. | | | |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 08:41 - Jul 11 with 1060 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 07:08 - Jul 11 by Churchman |
The Spitfire had the look, even to the enemy. It still does. The most beautiful deadly aircraft of its time. It was a truly brilliant design and capable of considerable development thanks in part to it’s relatively large airframe.
Until the griffon engine versions late in the war it was powered by the RR Merlin engine. This fantastic piece of engineering also powered the best versions of the Mustang, hence the sound. [Post edited 11 Jul 7:21]
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I have read the Hurricane was very much the, often underrated "workhorse" of the fighter flighs.
So perhaps it was the busy midfielder, breaking up play, allowing the "striker" that was the Spitfire to grab the glory but also scoring more than its fair share of goals. |  |
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| 86 Years Ago Today on 09:18 - Jul 11 with 996 views | RIPbobby |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 06:45 - Jul 11 by Churchman |
I refer to it in the line ‘chain home defence’ (the post was already very long).
Radar or RDF was absolutely crucial. Working off radio signals, it could detect well at all bar low altitude and was known as Chain Home. Later systems called Chain Home Low were deloped to cover low altitude.
To operate it required a lot of skill and organisation along with an integrated support network - plotters, observer cops, you name it. Three sets of telephone lines meant it was hard to knock a radar station offline and it was much harder to destroy the towers than you’d have thought.
The ‘Dowding System’ as it was known meant standing patrols need not be flown. You could literally direct your squadrons to the enemy and if the timing was got right. position defending aircraft in the right place above the enemy. Height was everything. As the 1969 film shows, it could go wrong but without it, the battle might well have been lost.
The Germans never appreciated what radar truly was (Britain’s was the first integrated system of its kind in the world) or how the British used it to such brilliant effect. They of course developed their versions when Germany came under attack later, but it was never quite as good despite a lot of the kit being technically superior and better made.
My dad did national service on Radar after the war. I still have his ‘sparks’ badge somewhere. For those interested, the little museum at Bawdsey is worth a look. [Post edited 11 Jul 7:22]
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This is brilliant. Have you written any seriously long pieces on this at all? |  | | |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 09:40 - Jul 11 with 953 views | flykickingbybgunn |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 06:45 - Jul 11 by Churchman |
I refer to it in the line ‘chain home defence’ (the post was already very long).
Radar or RDF was absolutely crucial. Working off radio signals, it could detect well at all bar low altitude and was known as Chain Home. Later systems called Chain Home Low were deloped to cover low altitude.
To operate it required a lot of skill and organisation along with an integrated support network - plotters, observer cops, you name it. Three sets of telephone lines meant it was hard to knock a radar station offline and it was much harder to destroy the towers than you’d have thought.
The ‘Dowding System’ as it was known meant standing patrols need not be flown. You could literally direct your squadrons to the enemy and if the timing was got right. position defending aircraft in the right place above the enemy. Height was everything. As the 1969 film shows, it could go wrong but without it, the battle might well have been lost.
The Germans never appreciated what radar truly was (Britain’s was the first integrated system of its kind in the world) or how the British used it to such brilliant effect. They of course developed their versions when Germany came under attack later, but it was never quite as good despite a lot of the kit being technically superior and better made.
My dad did national service on Radar after the war. I still have his ‘sparks’ badge somewhere. For those interested, the little museum at Bawdsey is worth a look. [Post edited 11 Jul 7:22]
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My Dad was on the second training course that was run at Bawdsey during the war. He was actually trained up by Watson-Watt. He told me that W-W was clearly brilliant and thoroughly knew his subject, but he could not teach to save his life. | | | |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 09:43 - Jul 11 with 946 views | NthQldITFC |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 09:40 - Jul 11 by flykickingbybgunn |
My Dad was on the second training course that was run at Bawdsey during the war. He was actually trained up by Watson-Watt. He told me that W-W was clearly brilliant and thoroughly knew his subject, but he could not teach to save his life. |
Good job he wasn't around in George III's time, what-what! | |
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| 86 Years Ago Today on 09:45 - Jul 11 with 945 views | Kievthegreat |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 06:45 - Jul 11 by Churchman |
I refer to it in the line ‘chain home defence’ (the post was already very long).
Radar or RDF was absolutely crucial. Working off radio signals, it could detect well at all bar low altitude and was known as Chain Home. Later systems called Chain Home Low were deloped to cover low altitude.
To operate it required a lot of skill and organisation along with an integrated support network - plotters, observer cops, you name it. Three sets of telephone lines meant it was hard to knock a radar station offline and it was much harder to destroy the towers than you’d have thought.
The ‘Dowding System’ as it was known meant standing patrols need not be flown. You could literally direct your squadrons to the enemy and if the timing was got right. position defending aircraft in the right place above the enemy. Height was everything. As the 1969 film shows, it could go wrong but without it, the battle might well have been lost.
The Germans never appreciated what radar truly was (Britain’s was the first integrated system of its kind in the world) or how the British used it to such brilliant effect. They of course developed their versions when Germany came under attack later, but it was never quite as good despite a lot of the kit being technically superior and better made.
My dad did national service on Radar after the war. I still have his ‘sparks’ badge somewhere. For those interested, the little museum at Bawdsey is worth a look. [Post edited 11 Jul 7:22]
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Radar is the perfect exhibit of it's not just the ability of the tool, but how you use it. German radar technology was never really deficient. The massive difference was the RAF understood that spotting the enemy from all these radar stations was only good if you could relay that message to commanders who could immediately sortie squadrons to intercept.
The speed of communication up the chain of command, the speed of decision making and then the speed of getting a sortie in the air was masses faster than the Germans could react in similar situations.
I found the story of the German missions with Zeppelins in 1939 before the outbreak of the war that concluded Britain had no functioning radar network hilarious. They sent multiple Zeppelin missions to sail up the whole east coast from Kent to the Scottish Isles, filled with radio equipment to look for radio emissions that would indicate Radar. Problem was that the German radar operated at different frequencies to Chain Home, so they assumed if Britain had radar it would be like theirs. They tracked up the coast and assumed no signal meant no Radar. Meanwhile the RAF tracked them the entire way. | | | |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 10:48 - Jul 11 with 886 views | Whos_blue |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 09:18 - Jul 11 by RIPbobby |
This is brilliant. Have you written any seriously long pieces on this at all? |
Agreed.
Fantastic thread Churchers and would like to hear more.
I'm fascinated by the BoB. Churchill's comments about "the few" still move me today.
I only have the 69 film as a touch point and have watched it dozens of times.
Duxford offer Spitfire flights but they are prohibitively expensive. They regularly fly over our house. One day maybe....
As an aside, an ex firefighter colleague based at Cambridge fire station once told me that he and other colleagues were extras on the film shot at nearby Duxford. They can be seen riding across the airfield towards the burning aircraft as part of the fire crew. |  |
| "Look, I don't wanna be the same as everybody else. That's why I'm a Mod, see?" |
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| 86 Years Ago Today on 10:55 - Jul 11 with 875 views | Guthrum |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 08:41 - Jul 11 by You_Bloo_Right |
I have read the Hurricane was very much the, often underrated "workhorse" of the fighter flighs.
So perhaps it was the busy midfielder, breaking up play, allowing the "striker" that was the Spitfire to grab the glory but also scoring more than its fair share of goals. |
The thing about the Hurricane being that it had a very good rate of turn (better than the Bf109) and was an extremely stable firing platform. Which actually made it surprisingly deadly in a slow dogfight.
There is this popular stereotype of Spitfires duking it out with Messerschmitts while the Hurricanes went after the lumbering bombers, but that is not actually true. The Hurricane was quite capable of handling itself in a dogfight and could out-turn most opponents. It mostly just lacked the speed in a fast-pass engagement. |  |
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| 86 Years Ago Today on 11:02 - Jul 11 with 865 views | Guthrum |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 06:01 - Jul 11 by flykickingbybgunn |
No mention of the other real hero of the time. Radar.
Developed at Bawdsey by Watson-Watt. That enabled the Hurricane and Spitfire pilots to be aware of the German forces movements and to be ready for them.
A time for heroes. |
In addition, the introduction during the Battle of variable-pitch, constant velocity propellors gave RAF fighters the crucial ability to change speed pretty much instantly, without having to mess about with the throttle and wait for the engine to adjust. | |
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| 86 Years Ago Today on 11:13 - Jul 11 with 857 views | Radlett_blue |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 06:01 - Jul 11 by flykickingbybgunn |
No mention of the other real hero of the time. Radar.
Developed at Bawdsey by Watson-Watt. That enabled the Hurricane and Spitfire pilots to be aware of the German forces movements and to be ready for them.
A time for heroes. |
Yes, radar was a new invention & while Germany had it as well, Britain had a fully integrated radar defence force. Even Hitler realised that Operation Sea Lion would be suicidal unless the RAF had been neutralised & Goering promised him it could be done. The Luftwaffe switched to attacking Southern airfields & radar installations, but our radar towers were made of open steel & difficult to bomb successfully. German intelligence was poor & they didn't realise how important radar was to our defence system, while Goering felt that if the RAF came up to fight, Luftwaffe superiority would win the day & we would run out of planes. By the time the Germans switched to heavy bombing of military & industrial targets, they thought the RAF was a near spent force. We responded by switching Fleet Air Arm pilots to the RAF & pilots from the Dominions. Overall, we had more pilots than the Luftwaffe & suffered fewer losses so the Germans eventually realised they were going to lose this game so switched to night time bombing of British cities. Even if the RAF had been seriously weakened, Sea Lion would still have been a big risk given the strength of the Royal Navy. My father would have been training as a naval pilot in the 1940s & he did see one piece of action near the end of the war, during which he attempted to dive bomb a British submarine. [Post edited 12 Jul 11:03]
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| 86 Years Ago Today on 11:19 - Jul 11 with 852 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
My Mum, who passed away in 2012, was from South East Ireland and had a couple of stories from the war. When she was 8, in 1941. A German Heinkel on reconnaissance crash landed on the beach near her home, turned over and exploded killing all the crew, they were buried with full military honours somewhere in County Wexford. I say 'somewhere' because I've been to the local cemetery many times, and they sure as heck aren't there.
The other story she used to tell is a bit more difficult to get to the bottom of, but I believe her as she wasn't one for tall tails and hated liars her entire life. She said that at some point during the war, a german fighter was shot down just off the coast and the pilot parachuted out.
The pilot was found by my Mum and a number of older children and he had injured his leg, (I assume when landing, but I don't know), and they 'hid' him In a local barn. With Ireland being neutral, if the local Garda found him, he would have been interned.
As I understand it, they brought him food and water for 2-3 days, but when they went back the following day, he was gone. They never knew if he wandered off in the night, to try and make his way back to mainland Europe, or if The Garda found him.
I always found it quite amusing thinking of my Mum and her friends keeping a German pilot like a pet hamster. |  |
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| 86 Years Ago Today on 11:42 - Jul 11 with 835 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 11:19 - Jul 11 by Cheltenham_Blue |
My Mum, who passed away in 2012, was from South East Ireland and had a couple of stories from the war. When she was 8, in 1941. A German Heinkel on reconnaissance crash landed on the beach near her home, turned over and exploded killing all the crew, they were buried with full military honours somewhere in County Wexford. I say 'somewhere' because I've been to the local cemetery many times, and they sure as heck aren't there.
The other story she used to tell is a bit more difficult to get to the bottom of, but I believe her as she wasn't one for tall tails and hated liars her entire life. She said that at some point during the war, a german fighter was shot down just off the coast and the pilot parachuted out.
The pilot was found by my Mum and a number of older children and he had injured his leg, (I assume when landing, but I don't know), and they 'hid' him In a local barn. With Ireland being neutral, if the local Garda found him, he would have been interned.
As I understand it, they brought him food and water for 2-3 days, but when they went back the following day, he was gone. They never knew if he wandered off in the night, to try and make his way back to mainland Europe, or if The Garda found him.
I always found it quite amusing thinking of my Mum and her friends keeping a German pilot like a pet hamster. |
Just found an interesting article about the Heinkel, with a potential story that one of the crew might have been Jewish.
https://www.irishpost.com/hist | |
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| 86 Years Ago Today on 14:18 - Jul 11 with 775 views | Whos_blue |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 11:19 - Jul 11 by Cheltenham_Blue |
My Mum, who passed away in 2012, was from South East Ireland and had a couple of stories from the war. When she was 8, in 1941. A German Heinkel on reconnaissance crash landed on the beach near her home, turned over and exploded killing all the crew, they were buried with full military honours somewhere in County Wexford. I say 'somewhere' because I've been to the local cemetery many times, and they sure as heck aren't there.
The other story she used to tell is a bit more difficult to get to the bottom of, but I believe her as she wasn't one for tall tails and hated liars her entire life. She said that at some point during the war, a german fighter was shot down just off the coast and the pilot parachuted out.
The pilot was found by my Mum and a number of older children and he had injured his leg, (I assume when landing, but I don't know), and they 'hid' him In a local barn. With Ireland being neutral, if the local Garda found him, he would have been interned.
As I understand it, they brought him food and water for 2-3 days, but when they went back the following day, he was gone. They never knew if he wandered off in the night, to try and make his way back to mainland Europe, or if The Garda found him.
I always found it quite amusing thinking of my Mum and her friends keeping a German pilot like a pet hamster. |
What a wonderful story about your mum and the injured pilot.
It immediately reminded me of this BBC children's drama from the early 80s!
The Machine Gunners (TV Series 1983) - IMDb https://share.google/xcjGaYnNk | |
| "Look, I don't wanna be the same as everybody else. That's why I'm a Mod, see?" |
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| 86 Years Ago Today on 20:17 - Jul 11 with 651 views | Churchman |
| 86 Years Ago Today on 10:55 - Jul 11 by Guthrum |
The thing about the Hurricane being that it had a very good rate of turn (better than the Bf109) and was an extremely stable firing platform. Which actually made it surprisingly deadly in a slow dogfight.
There is this popular stereotype of Spitfires duking it out with Messerschmitts while the Hurricanes went after the lumbering bombers, but that is not actually true. The Hurricane was quite capable of handling itself in a dogfight and could out-turn most opponents. It mostly just lacked the speed in a fast-pass engagement. |
Yes, the Hurricane and the Spitfire had great turning circles. None better at that time (the Japanese A6M Zero fighters could, but that’s another story.
The problem with turning circles and manoeuvrability was that unlike WW1, this wasn’t the most important aspect. Height, climb, dive, rate of roll were more important. The Bf109 was better than both at that - by a margin. It also per lb carried a heavier armament and more of it.
So seeing your enemy first, height were literally everything. This is why Galland and advocated ‘free chase’ - it was what the Bf109 was suited for. The German bomber pilots wanted to see their escorts. They felt safer that way. They actually weren’t because if they were intercepted the German fighters would have to climb to fight and accelerate.
Firstly that could be fatal in itself, but also they used more fuel. In 1940, 109s had no drop tanks and even flying economically without interference would give them 20 mins max over London.
Ok the Germans were wedded to the heavy fighter concept. They found that despite the 110 being the best twin engine fighter in the world in 1940, it couldn’t mix it with spitfires and Hurricanes unless at full speed and from above diving. Beyond that, it was in a world of trouble the only defence being circling to cover each others’ tail, much as the turret fighter Boulton Paul Defiant had to. Chaining it to bombers exposed one of its worst weaknesses. Lack of acceleration.
It became meat on the table and losses catastrophic. It was a good design, just misused.
Where you are correct is the misconception that Hurricanes and Spitfires separated out roles. They didn’t. The name of the game was radar would put either in the right position to attack. Where disputes rose was between 11 Group’s Keith Park and 12 Group’s Trafford Leigh Mallory. The latter did not support the former as much as he should have. His career came first.
The Hurricane was a stable gun platform and a top line aeroplane in 1940. Its Browning 303s were grouped in blocks of four and easy to service and reload. In 1940 they acquired DeWild ammunition. This lit up with a small flash if hits were made, making targeting easier.
Hurricane performance was short of a Spitfire or 109, but not catastrophically. It also depended on the condition of the aeroplane. Some were just not reliable or performed poorly. These were largely hand built aircraft and in fact variation ended was with computerisation.
If you would like to know what it is like to train to learn to fly, read ex BoB fighter pilot Geoff Welham’s book First Light. It tells you exactly what it feels like. If whoever reads this raises an eyebrow, this is not just me but what an ex-Wing Commander Lightning pilot friend of mine thinks too. | | | |
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