| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. 02:13 - Sep 22 with 5252 views | Ryorry |
1. Police thought there was no indication any crime had even been committed, till a doctor at the hospital informed them that he'd gone into the ward & discovered her standing over a baby in distress for whom the alarm had been been turned off, but she was doing nothing to help them.
Now turns out that he'd emailed colleagues at the same time saying it was her who called his attention to the baby in distress, and that the alarm was still working. Has admitted he's changed his mind re his original statement to police.
2. Key evidence for the prosecution (because the only extant scientific evidence) was totally flawed.
a) Info re baby O's blood sugar level for April 9th, which showed it to be normal - thus proving insulin couldn't have been administered that day by Letby or anyone else - was not presented to the trial, but it was presented for April 8th, 10th, 11th & 12th.
b) Consultant pulmonologist said it would have been impossible to kill babies via the air injection method cited at the trial. There was actually handwritten timeline evidence by one of the doctors at the hospital that it was his injection catching part of one baby's liver which had already been damaged during birth, which was likely to be the significant factor in their death.
3. One of the parents whose baby died said it was entirely due to faecal infection (there was faecal matter coming out of the taps on the ward on a regular basis), but similar to several other babies' deaths at the hospital when Letby was not present, this was not recorded - because although the infant contracted the infection at the Countess of Chester Hospital, they were bluelighted away to a bigger hospital in Manchester to be treated, but sadly died anyway, so the deaths were recorded there & not included in stats for the CoC.
4. The jurors and court were told that all the babies who died were well and stable, so the only cause of death could have been deliberate harm. A senior nurse working on the ward at the time said this was manifestly untrue - the babies were all 'category 3' - the highest level of prematurity/illness/vulnerability - which the CoC Hosp was totally unequipped to deal with, particularly in extraordinary levels of understaffing.
A newspaper which most on here understandably shun, said it set out to prove Letby guilty in this docu, but actually ended up finding the complete opposite,
https://www.channel5.com/show/
[Post edited 22 Sep 3:27]
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| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:24 - Sep 22 with 589 views | balcombeblue |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:13 - Sep 22 by redrickstuhaart |
Of course the notes are admissible. Its for the defence to put a case forward about them and the jury to decide.
Where did you get the idea there was only one expert? A brief Google suggests six. |
I will let one of the lawyers comment, but the admissibility of the notes in the context of what was put in front of the jury is subject to significant challenge.
More accurately, I should have said that the cause of death evidence was filtered through Dewi Evans, one expert, to establish if murders had taken place. This evidence was not reviewed by genuine experts. Very concerning. |  | | |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:27 - Sep 22 with 567 views | balcombeblue |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:16 - Sep 22 by MattinLondon |
I think she’s guilty.
Saying that if there’s new evidence or serious doubt in her conviction then there should be a retrial.
Off-topic, but how can a trial of this magnitude which involves so much technical detail be decided by laypeople? I do think that professional jurors should be a thing where every single member will be able to understand the technical details relatively easily. |
It's with the CCRC, so all we can really do is wait.
It's a very good point about the jury, particularly in the case of such a technical and emotive case as this.
The mismatch of resources in this case between prosecution and defence is vast. We have an adversarial process and I not sure 'the truth' is rally anyones concern! Execpt of course victims and the wider public. | | | |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:28 - Sep 22 with 562 views | Wolfshead |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 06:37 - Sep 22 by USA |
Didn’t police find notes saying she was a killer? That’s something I’ll never be able to move past. For me there’s no reasonable explanation for that, IF she’s innocent.
“I am evil I did this” and “I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them” |
yes exactly this. she wrote notes admitting it. |  |
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| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:30 - Sep 22 with 558 views | DJR |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 09:36 - Sep 22 by redrickstuhaart |
As much as anything, I am pointing out that most people who have formed a view, do not even know what she said on the subject. Which rather highlights the difference between a view formed on a documentary, and one formed by a jury listening to the whole thing. Of course, without being there and seeing how she explained it, one is missing a massive chunk of potentially useful information (albeit demeanour and delivery are dangerous things to rely upon). |
I'm with you on this.
Of course, there may have been a miscarriage of justice but I don't think this is something a lay observer can form a view on.
As always with these things, I prefer the wheels of justice of take their course, but of course that doesn't necessarily rule out a miscarriage because no system of justice is perfect. [Post edited 22 Sep 10:34]
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| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:31 - Sep 22 with 551 views | Ryorry |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:28 - Sep 22 by Wolfshead |
yes exactly this. she wrote notes admitting it. |
For goodness sake - read the thread! In effect, you've ignored the evidence here. | |
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| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:32 - Sep 22 with 540 views | balcombeblue |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:30 - Sep 22 by DJR |
I'm with you on this.
Of course, there may have been a miscarriage of justice but I don't think this is something a lay observer can form a view on.
As always with these things, I prefer the wheels of justice of take their course, but of course that doesn't necessarily rule out a miscarriage because no system of justice is perfect. [Post edited 22 Sep 10:34]
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Isn't the view formed more on the substantial evidence presented to the CCRC rather than the documentary?
It always seems to be that the 'sniff test' of I think they are guilty is fine, but not if it works the other way..... | | | |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:35 - Sep 22 with 529 views | Ryorry |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:30 - Sep 22 by DJR |
I'm with you on this.
Of course, there may have been a miscarriage of justice but I don't think this is something a lay observer can form a view on.
As always with these things, I prefer the wheels of justice of take their course, but of course that doesn't necessarily rule out a miscarriage because no system of justice is perfect. [Post edited 22 Sep 10:34]
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There's an absolute mass of evidence in this case throwing the verdicts into doubt, that's perfectly comprehensible to lay people (assuming reasonable intelligence and an open mind). | |
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| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:36 - Sep 22 with 528 views | Blueschev |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:30 - Sep 22 by DJR |
I'm with you on this.
Of course, there may have been a miscarriage of justice but I don't think this is something a lay observer can form a view on.
As always with these things, I prefer the wheels of justice of take their course, but of course that doesn't necessarily rule out a miscarriage because no system of justice is perfect. [Post edited 22 Sep 10:34]
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I'm not convinced by the verdict of the trial, but I'm nowhere near qualified to make a definitive judgement.
Private Eye aside, I'm concerned by the motives of many of those declaring it a miscarriage of justice, given their views on anything else (Peter Hitchens, Nadine Dorries, David Davis et al). |  | | |
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| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:42 - Sep 22 with 502 views | Ryorry |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:36 - Sep 22 by Blueschev |
I'm not convinced by the verdict of the trial, but I'm nowhere near qualified to make a definitive judgement.
Private Eye aside, I'm concerned by the motives of many of those declaring it a miscarriage of justice, given their views on anything else (Peter Hitchens, Nadine Dorries, David Davis et al). |
They're hugely outnumbered by professionals in their field - consultant neonatal & other medical specialists, high ranking lawyers, an Asst. Chief Constable, a Detective Superintendant - the last two in particular saying that there's no evidence on which Letby should ever have been convicted. | |
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| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:42 - Sep 22 with 502 views | balcombeblue |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:36 - Sep 22 by Blueschev |
I'm not convinced by the verdict of the trial, but I'm nowhere near qualified to make a definitive judgement.
Private Eye aside, I'm concerned by the motives of many of those declaring it a miscarriage of justice, given their views on anything else (Peter Hitchens, Nadine Dorries, David Davis et al). |
You've chosen three people on the right (sort of with Hitchens, he's been everywhere).
David Davis stood with a panel of 30 or so international experts. Davis is a respected, serious politician by many across the divide. The Guardian has also been prominent in their criticism of the verdict.
Getting justice is the overriding principle, what other motives are there? | | | |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:44 - Sep 22 with 494 views | DJR |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:32 - Sep 22 by balcombeblue |
Isn't the view formed more on the substantial evidence presented to the CCRC rather than the documentary?
It always seems to be that the 'sniff test' of I think they are guilty is fine, but not if it works the other way..... |
That's what I meant about the wheels of justice but the fact that evidence has been submitted to the CCRC doesn't mean the application will be successful.
And here's a link to a statement made by the CCRC.
https://ccrc.gov.uk/news/chair
"A review of Ms Letby’s convictions is underway.
It is not for the CCRC to determine innocence or guilt in a case; that’s a matter for the courts.
It is for the CCRC to find, investigate and if appropriate, refer potential miscarriages of justice to the appellate courts when new evidence or new argument means there is a real possibility that a conviction will not be upheld, or a sentence reduced.
We make impartial, evidence-based decisions. We do not make decisions on the basis of external pressure from anyone." [Post edited 22 Sep 10:47]
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| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:47 - Sep 22 with 473 views | balcombeblue |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:44 - Sep 22 by DJR |
That's what I meant about the wheels of justice but the fact that evidence has been submitted to the CCRC doesn't mean the application will be successful.
And here's a link to a statement made by the CCRC.
https://ccrc.gov.uk/news/chair
"A review of Ms Letby’s convictions is underway.
It is not for the CCRC to determine innocence or guilt in a case; that’s a matter for the courts.
It is for the CCRC to find, investigate and if appropriate, refer potential miscarriages of justice to the appellate courts when new evidence or new argument means there is a real possibility that a conviction will not be upheld, or a sentence reduced.
We make impartial, evidence-based decisions. We do not make decisions on the basis of external pressure from anyone." [Post edited 22 Sep 10:47]
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A completely understandable position form them. I just wished they got on with it. I can't believe it takes xx years (was it 12) in the case of Malkinson to come to a decision to refer. | | | |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:49 - Sep 22 with 465 views | MedwayTractor |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 09:26 - Sep 22 by BlueandTruesince82 |
Wasn't she told to do this by her therapist? To write her feelings down etc?
She also wrote "I haven't done anything wrong and they have no evidence so why have I had to hide away?"
It strikes me as an outpouring of feelings, worries and more.
I dont know if she did it but based on the evidence that has come out I dont think guilt has been proven.
The man (expert) on whos work the prosecutions star witness built his conclusions has stated that said witness misunderstood and misrepresented his work and that he does not agree with his conclusions.
More and more questions about her conviction have come to light, feels like her defence team did a shocking Job (they made no real attempt to counter the scientific evidence which has now been questioned by a panel of experts) and i think she deserves a retrial. It really feels to me like there is more at play here. |
The principal prosecution witness was Dr Dewi Evans. Prior to the trial, the trial judge, Goss LJ,, was told by another judge that Evans is not reliable as an Expert Witness, but Goss ignored the warning.
Evans approached Cheshire Police to offer his services to the prosecution, on the basis of newspaper reports of the case. This is not a safe basis for appointing an Expert Witness. In addition, not only was Evans not practising at the time, but his field was pediatrics, not neo-natology. |  |
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| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:52 - Sep 22 with 454 views | Ryorry |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:44 - Sep 22 by DJR |
That's what I meant about the wheels of justice but the fact that evidence has been submitted to the CCRC doesn't mean the application will be successful.
And here's a link to a statement made by the CCRC.
https://ccrc.gov.uk/news/chair
"A review of Ms Letby’s convictions is underway.
It is not for the CCRC to determine innocence or guilt in a case; that’s a matter for the courts.
It is for the CCRC to find, investigate and if appropriate, refer potential miscarriages of justice to the appellate courts when new evidence or new argument means there is a real possibility that a conviction will not be upheld, or a sentence reduced.
We make impartial, evidence-based decisions. We do not make decisions on the basis of external pressure from anyone." [Post edited 22 Sep 10:47]
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Whilst reviewing/researching the case again last night, I incidentally came across articles highlighting that the CCRC is itself under the critical cosh for historic & ongoing failures -
https://committees.parliament.
https://www.hja.net/expert-com
https://www.theguardian.com/la | |
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| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 11:03 - Sep 22 with 413 views | DJR |
As I said above, no system of justice is perfect.
But with such a high profile case, it is difficult to imagine that the CCRC will not do its level best to get to the bottom of things.
But with experts apparently on both sides, it is a far from a straightforward case. [Post edited 22 Sep 11:05]
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| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 11:23 - Sep 22 with 358 views | The_Romford_Blue |
The desperation from people on here as well as society in general for her to be innocent is really disturbing to me.
I get it. She’s a soft looking young white nurse. The idea of her coldly killing innocent babies is almost in fathomable and, as such, we just all want her to be not guilty. I followed this case from before it made the public domain as a journo I know had got wind of it. And the trials and the evidence make it almost impossible for her to be not guilty. Just because she doesn’t look like she’d be capable of murdering babies, doesn’t mean she didn’t. |  |
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| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 11:25 - Sep 22 with 335 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 08:29 - Sep 22 by redrickstuhaart |
This has been through extensive reviews, and the decisions have been made with far more information and detail than a documentary which is designed to get viewers. |
Absolutely. And those who think she can’t have done it latch onto every one of these docs and become convinced that she must be innocent. I’m not having it. The trials were as in depth as they come and they found her guilty of 34 separate acts (I think that’s the number off the top of my head). A media circus thereafter doesn’t change that. | |
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| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 11:41 - Sep 22 with 286 views | Trequartista |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 10:36 - Sep 22 by Blueschev |
I'm not convinced by the verdict of the trial, but I'm nowhere near qualified to make a definitive judgement.
Private Eye aside, I'm concerned by the motives of many of those declaring it a miscarriage of justice, given their views on anything else (Peter Hitchens, Nadine Dorries, David Davis et al). |
What are the motives you are concerned about with Peter Hitchens and David Davies? They just seem to be concerned about a miscarriage of justice as far as I can make out. |  |
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| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 11:42 - Sep 22 with 282 views | balcombeblue |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 11:23 - Sep 22 by The_Romford_Blue |
The desperation from people on here as well as society in general for her to be innocent is really disturbing to me.
I get it. She’s a soft looking young white nurse. The idea of her coldly killing innocent babies is almost in fathomable and, as such, we just all want her to be not guilty. I followed this case from before it made the public domain as a journo I know had got wind of it. And the trials and the evidence make it almost impossible for her to be not guilty. Just because she doesn’t look like she’d be capable of murdering babies, doesn’t mean she didn’t. |
Jeepers, bringing colour into it is quite astounding.
The volume of new evidence is unprecedented, the input from the 30+ international panel or many many other artefacts.
There have been many miscarriages of justice and this may well be another. I find people's belief in the perfection of the court system even more disturbing.. | | | |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 11:44 - Sep 22 with 277 views | balcombeblue |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 11:25 - Sep 22 by The_Romford_Blue |
Absolutely. And those who think she can’t have done it latch onto every one of these docs and become convinced that she must be innocent. I’m not having it. The trials were as in depth as they come and they found her guilty of 34 separate acts (I think that’s the number off the top of my head). A media circus thereafter doesn’t change that. |
Also the trials were clearly not 'in depth' given that the volume of evidence that has emerged since. The length of trial is actually a weakness in this case rather than a strength.
Also, many of those with concerns challenge the safety of the conviction. Whether she is innocent or not isn't the hurdle. | | | |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 11:45 - Sep 22 with 277 views | Trequartista |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 11:23 - Sep 22 by The_Romford_Blue |
The desperation from people on here as well as society in general for her to be innocent is really disturbing to me.
I get it. She’s a soft looking young white nurse. The idea of her coldly killing innocent babies is almost in fathomable and, as such, we just all want her to be not guilty. I followed this case from before it made the public domain as a journo I know had got wind of it. And the trials and the evidence make it almost impossible for her to be not guilty. Just because she doesn’t look like she’d be capable of murdering babies, doesn’t mean she didn’t. |
I don't think her age or race has much to do with it. I don't remember many proclaiming the innocence of Beverley Allitt | |
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| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 11:50 - Sep 22 with 261 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Lucy Letby; C5 docu last night, new evidence. Appeal has to be allowed surely .. on 11:45 - Sep 22 by Trequartista |
I don't think her age or race has much to do with it. I don't remember many proclaiming the innocence of Beverley Allitt |
It does though. Because nobody pictures a young pretty white girl from a privileged upbringing to be someone who’s capable of murdering babies. It’s subconscious bias to want her to be innocent.
If she was a 50 year old bloke from abroad working over here, there would be absolutely far less coverage of this case and the ‘oh she must be innocent’ brigade.
Likewise for Madeline McCanns parents not to get in any bother when they left her alone. Media treat them like they’re heroes searching for their littlun rather than anybody bother to hold them to account. Because they were rich white people. Again if that was a couple from a council estate who’d left their daughter to go on a sesh in a different country, the outcry would’ve been far higher.
Subconscious bias. | |
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