| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base 23:00 - Oct 4 with 1711 views | redrickstuhaart |
Excellent.
Now the rest. |  |
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 23:23 - Oct 4 with 1641 views | Churchman |
Why do you see it as ‘excellent’? |  | | |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 23:26 - Oct 4 with 1631 views | Sarge |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 23:23 - Oct 4 by Churchman |
Why do you see it as ‘excellent’? |
Because they’re there to conduct a war that the UK doesn’t support privately or publicly and is detrimental to us to have them there. Pity they didn’t leave months ago so RIAT could have gone ahead. | | | |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 01:42 - Oct 5 with 1461 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
So the face value explanation is that there has been an attempt by Iranian agents to attack them, and there is evidence of further attempts being planned.
The other interpretation is that within the past week Trump has come very close to saying that he wouldn't respond if Article Five was invoked by a European NATO member, and this is his signal to Putin that that is the case. | | | |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 05:02 - Oct 5 with 1300 views | Benters |
I wonder if your ancestors would have thought the same during WW2 if that had happened? [Post edited 5 Oct 6:40]
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 06:47 - Oct 5 with 1173 views | NthQldITFC |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 05:02 - Oct 5 by Benters |
I wonder if your ancestors would have thought the same during WW2 if that had happened? [Post edited 5 Oct 6:40]
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The US wasn't a rogue superpower responding to the whims of a limp-brained cretin during WW2 though. |  |
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 06:49 - Oct 5 with 1163 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 05:02 - Oct 5 by Benters |
I wonder if your ancestors would have thought the same during WW2 if that had happened? [Post edited 5 Oct 6:40]
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Different circumstances and different times of course but, "banter" or not, in some cases the phrase "overpaid, oversexed, overconfident and over here" was used in relation to US GIs in WW2. To which some GIs would apparently retort regarding British servicemen, "underpaid, undersexed, underfed and under Eisenhower".
So in answer to your question, in all likelihood some of our predecessors thought the same in WW2. Those thoughts in no way changed the huge contribution made by those men and women and in no way reflected the view of the nation. |  |
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 07:33 - Oct 5 with 1074 views | WeWereZombies |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 06:49 - Oct 5 by You_Bloo_Right |
Different circumstances and different times of course but, "banter" or not, in some cases the phrase "overpaid, oversexed, overconfident and over here" was used in relation to US GIs in WW2. To which some GIs would apparently retort regarding British servicemen, "underpaid, undersexed, underfed and under Eisenhower".
So in answer to your question, in all likelihood some of our predecessors thought the same in WW2. Those thoughts in no way changed the huge contribution made by those men and women and in no way reflected the view of the nation. |
Add to that the view that the war was already turning in favour of the existing allies before the United States joined them and the diplomatic clumsiness of United States generals actually had a detrimental effect on the fortunes of, for example, resistance fighters and that that effect was sometime fatal gives a sobering aspect to the question. But as you say the circumstances and the times, not least Pearl Harbour, make hindsight difficult.
However instances like the Battle of the Kasserine Pass highlight the dangers of regarding the United States as some kind of trump (sic) card that will win the day unaided:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ |  |
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 07:37 - Oct 5 with 1055 views | StokieBlue |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 23:23 - Oct 4 by Churchman |
Why do you see it as ‘excellent’? |
Because it's being used in a war we aren't involved in and thus has made us a target?
Let's turn it around.
Why do you want long range strategic B1 bombers stationed there? They have no defensive usage under any joint NATO defence plans, they are purely for attack.
SB |  |
| Avatar - M101 - Pinwheel Galaxy |
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 07:46 - Oct 5 with 1004 views | DJR |
A couple of observations.
1. The war against Iran appears largely over, so maybe there is just no need to station bombers at Fairford.
2. If an Iranian terrorist threat has played a part, it could be argued that the US has given in to terrorism, and Iran has achieved its objective. [Post edited 5 Oct 7:48]
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:04 - Oct 5 with 914 views | Guthrum |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 05:02 - Oct 5 by Benters |
I wonder if your ancestors would have thought the same during WW2 if that had happened? [Post edited 5 Oct 6:40]
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The majority of US bombers were withdrawn at the end of WWII also. Perhaps this simply implies they are no longer required there for the bombardment of Iran? |  |
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:14 - Oct 5 with 861 views | Guthrum |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 07:46 - Oct 5 by DJR |
A couple of observations.
1. The war against Iran appears largely over, so maybe there is just no need to station bombers at Fairford.
2. If an Iranian terrorist threat has played a part, it could be argued that the US has given in to terrorism, and Iran has achieved its objective. [Post edited 5 Oct 7:48]
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No.2 would be doubly odd, given there was no penetration of the base and the plot seems to have been pretty ineffectual. Plus they haven't been reported as removing aircraft from Mildenhall or Lakenheath.
This strikes me more as an operational withdrawal (no longer needed) or as a rotation. | |
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:24 - Oct 5 with 796 views | redrickstuhaart |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:14 - Oct 5 by Guthrum |
No.2 would be doubly odd, given there was no penetration of the base and the plot seems to have been pretty ineffectual. Plus they haven't been reported as removing aircraft from Mildenhall or Lakenheath.
This strikes me more as an operational withdrawal (no longer needed) or as a rotation. |
It looks more like a trump tantrum tbh. | |
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:25 - Oct 5 with 801 views | DJR |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:14 - Oct 5 by Guthrum |
No.2 would be doubly odd, given there was no penetration of the base and the plot seems to have been pretty ineffectual. Plus they haven't been reported as removing aircraft from Mildenhall or Lakenheath.
This strikes me more as an operational withdrawal (no longer needed) or as a rotation. |
That would be my view too but this from the New York Times is intriguing though.
"U.S. Rushes to Withdraw Bombers From U.K. Air Base After New Threats
The withdrawal came with unusual speed, following what U.S. officials said were threats of an Iran-based plot against the installation.
The United States rushed over the weekend to withdraw all 12 B-1 Air Force bombers from an air base in southern England after commanders received new threats about an Iran-backed plot against the installation, two U.S. officials said on Sunday.
American officials on Sunday declined to specify the nature of the new information that prompted the rapid withdrawal of the Air Force bombers, some of which had just arrived in the past week as part of a normal rotation of forces.
One US official said the new information was part of the same threat warnings that surfaced three weeks ago, but specific details and a sense of urgency spiked in the past 24 hours, alarming commanders.”
And whatever the reason, it does in propaganda terms seem to allow Iran to claim some sort of victory, and maybe embolden them. [Post edited 5 Oct 8:32]
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:30 - Oct 5 with 752 views | Guthrum |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 07:33 - Oct 5 by WeWereZombies |
Add to that the view that the war was already turning in favour of the existing allies before the United States joined them and the diplomatic clumsiness of United States generals actually had a detrimental effect on the fortunes of, for example, resistance fighters and that that effect was sometime fatal gives a sobering aspect to the question. But as you say the circumstances and the times, not least Pearl Harbour, make hindsight difficult.
However instances like the Battle of the Kasserine Pass highlight the dangers of regarding the United States as some kind of trump (sic) card that will win the day unaided:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ |
Not sure I'd agree the War was already turning very far in the Allies' favour by December 1941. If it was, a lot of that was down to tacit US support, particularly with military and food supplies, but also controlling the western half of the Atlantic. The Japanese move, even had it been limited to Southeast Asia, would still have been a major drain on British Empire resources at a critical point.
Furthermore, the liberation of Western Europe and final defeat of Germany would probably have been beyond the financial and manpower capabilities of Britain alone, while the Soviets would have had a very much harder time facing a larger proportion of Axis forces without supplies from the US and its southern flank protected by the takeover of Iran.
It's a little unfair to use the Kasserine Pass as an exemplar of US military weakness. It was their first serious battle in the Europe/North Africa theatre, they were very inexperienced and Fredendall was incompetent. The Americans learnt quickly after that. | |
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:31 - Oct 5 with 751 views | NthQldITFC |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:24 - Oct 5 by redrickstuhaart |
It looks more like a trump tantrum tbh. |
I think it's probably both, isn't it? Operationally sound decision, but convenient for Tr*mp to rattle the cages of his plastic play pen and throw his poo out, and for all his little followers at home and overseas to have their little hissy fits too.
Buck Turgidson has gone home and taken his toys with him because no-one wants to play with him any more. | |
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:39 - Oct 5 with 721 views | Guthrum |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:25 - Oct 5 by DJR |
That would be my view too but this from the New York Times is intriguing though.
"U.S. Rushes to Withdraw Bombers From U.K. Air Base After New Threats
The withdrawal came with unusual speed, following what U.S. officials said were threats of an Iran-based plot against the installation.
The United States rushed over the weekend to withdraw all 12 B-1 Air Force bombers from an air base in southern England after commanders received new threats about an Iran-backed plot against the installation, two U.S. officials said on Sunday.
American officials on Sunday declined to specify the nature of the new information that prompted the rapid withdrawal of the Air Force bombers, some of which had just arrived in the past week as part of a normal rotation of forces.
One US official said the new information was part of the same threat warnings that surfaced three weeks ago, but specific details and a sense of urgency spiked in the past 24 hours, alarming commanders.”
And whatever the reason, it does in propaganda terms seem to allow Iran to claim some sort of victory, and maybe embolden them. [Post edited 5 Oct 8:32]
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That would be pretty extraordinary weakness in the face of a fairly mild threat (the Iranians lack resources to mount a really threatening attack*). But then the War Department under Blusterin' Pete is not what it was.
Edit: I also thought there were only four B1 bombers at Fairford, not 12. Certainly only ever seen one at a time flying round here.
* Otherwise they would already have done better than hiring a gang of South London petty villains who had no explosives, no fieldcraft and at least one of whom was scared enough to phone the police himself. We're into Guy Richie comedy caper territory here. [Post edited 5 Oct 8:44]
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:41 - Oct 5 with 702 views | NthQldITFC |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:39 - Oct 5 by Guthrum |
That would be pretty extraordinary weakness in the face of a fairly mild threat (the Iranians lack resources to mount a really threatening attack*). But then the War Department under Blusterin' Pete is not what it was.
Edit: I also thought there were only four B1 bombers at Fairford, not 12. Certainly only ever seen one at a time flying round here.
* Otherwise they would already have done better than hiring a gang of South London petty villains who had no explosives, no fieldcraft and at least one of whom was scared enough to phone the police himself. We're into Guy Richie comedy caper territory here. [Post edited 5 Oct 8:44]
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I said the other day that I think this is all a Burnham plot to revitalise the Ealing Comedy industry, and I stand by that. | |
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:42 - Oct 5 with 697 views | WeWereZombies |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:30 - Oct 5 by Guthrum |
Not sure I'd agree the War was already turning very far in the Allies' favour by December 1941. If it was, a lot of that was down to tacit US support, particularly with military and food supplies, but also controlling the western half of the Atlantic. The Japanese move, even had it been limited to Southeast Asia, would still have been a major drain on British Empire resources at a critical point.
Furthermore, the liberation of Western Europe and final defeat of Germany would probably have been beyond the financial and manpower capabilities of Britain alone, while the Soviets would have had a very much harder time facing a larger proportion of Axis forces without supplies from the US and its southern flank protected by the takeover of Iran.
It's a little unfair to use the Kasserine Pass as an exemplar of US military weakness. It was their first serious battle in the Europe/North Africa theatre, they were very inexperienced and Fredendall was incompetent. The Americans learnt quickly after that. |
I think it is entirely fair to point to Kasserine, in war as in chess the opening gambit can define the outcome and the United States was fortunate that it had British and French forces (at great cost to ourselves) to cover its back. | |
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:46 - Oct 5 with 672 views | DJR |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:39 - Oct 5 by Guthrum |
That would be pretty extraordinary weakness in the face of a fairly mild threat (the Iranians lack resources to mount a really threatening attack*). But then the War Department under Blusterin' Pete is not what it was.
Edit: I also thought there were only four B1 bombers at Fairford, not 12. Certainly only ever seen one at a time flying round here.
* Otherwise they would already have done better than hiring a gang of South London petty villains who had no explosives, no fieldcraft and at least one of whom was scared enough to phone the police himself. We're into Guy Richie comedy caper territory here. [Post edited 5 Oct 8:44]
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I am not really disagreeing with you, given the US doesn't withdraw from bases in the Middle East which come under actual attack.
I also wonder whether the huge cost of the operations against Iran have played a part, with the plot just a pretext, as well as backing up Trump's suggestion that something big was thwarted.
[Post edited 5 Oct 8:52]
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:46 - Oct 5 with 666 views | StokieBlue |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:31 - Oct 5 by NthQldITFC |
I think it's probably both, isn't it? Operationally sound decision, but convenient for Tr*mp to rattle the cages of his plastic play pen and throw his poo out, and for all his little followers at home and overseas to have their little hissy fits too.
Buck Turgidson has gone home and taken his toys with him because no-one wants to play with him any more. |
Only operationally sound if he's conceding Iran have basically won. I can't see how any US aims have been achieved. Everything is a total globally because of this.
SB | |
| Avatar - M101 - Pinwheel Galaxy |
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:53 - Oct 5 with 611 views | Guthrum |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:42 - Oct 5 by WeWereZombies |
I think it is entirely fair to point to Kasserine, in war as in chess the opening gambit can define the outcome and the United States was fortunate that it had British and French forces (at great cost to ourselves) to cover its back. |
The same could be said for the Anglo-French performance in 1940 (Norway and France). Or the Soviets in the latter half of 1941. Even the Germans relied on quite a bit of luck and bluff in their early successes. It took all sides a while to master the required techniques (as it did in the First War, also). | |
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:56 - Oct 5 with 605 views | Guthrum |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:46 - Oct 5 by DJR |
I am not really disagreeing with you, given the US doesn't withdraw from bases in the Middle East which come under actual attack.
I also wonder whether the huge cost of the operations against Iran have played a part, with the plot just a pretext, as well as backing up Trump's suggestion that something big was thwarted.
[Post edited 5 Oct 8:52]
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I suspect cost - and nominal disengagement from foreign conflicts - in the run up to the Mid Terms may well have played a part. | |
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 09:09 - Oct 5 with 527 views | Guthrum |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:46 - Oct 5 by StokieBlue |
Only operationally sound if he's conceding Iran have basically won. I can't see how any US aims have been achieved. Everything is a total globally because of this.
SB |
Not sure I see any way the US could win the conflict from here, without a really significant commitment, including intensive bombing and troops on the ground. Which will be very costly, both in money and lives, plus likely to cause further instability with fuel prices - an utter disaster in terms of Trump and the Republicans' public support. [Post edited 5 Oct 9:12]
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 09:26 - Oct 5 with 442 views | DJR |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 08:56 - Oct 5 by Guthrum |
I suspect cost - and nominal disengagement from foreign conflicts - in the run up to the Mid Terms may well have played a part. |
Perhaps ironic to see a Dunkirk-like operation being regarded as some sort of triumph.
But then again many of his supporters are gullible. [Post edited 5 Oct 9:27]
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| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 10:40 - Oct 5 with 253 views | WeWereZombies |
| US removes all bombers from RAF Fairford base on 09:26 - Oct 5 by DJR |
Perhaps ironic to see a Dunkirk-like operation being regarded as some sort of triumph.
But then again many of his supporters are gullible. [Post edited 5 Oct 9:27]
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Careful, it sounds like you are proposing that Trump and his ally Farage are about to, wait for it - - - Start The Boats... | |
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