| What’s the point in the inquest? on 18:27 - Apr 29 with 899 views | monytowbray |
Crooks. Utter crooks. |  |
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| What’s the point in the inquest? on 18:32 - Apr 29 with 884 views | jeera |
Instructed to ignore one of the key points?
Without wishing to overreact, this country seems to become more corrupt by the day. |  |
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| What’s the point in the inquest? on 18:33 - Apr 29 with 882 views | Swansea_Blue |
None, if PPE is one of the possible contributory factors.
This decision smells political. |  |
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| What’s the point in the inquest? on 18:34 - Apr 29 with 871 views | NewcyBlue |
| What’s the point in the inquest? on 18:33 - Apr 29 by Swansea_Blue |
None, if PPE is one of the possible contributory factors.
This decision smells political. |
It’s outrageous. |  |
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| What’s the point in the inquest? on 18:45 - Apr 29 with 843 views | factual_blue |
| What’s the point in the inquest? on 18:33 - Apr 29 by Swansea_Blue |
None, if PPE is one of the possible contributory factors.
This decision smells political. |
I think the coroners can conclude that there were insufficient precautions (including a lack of PPE) at the particular place where somebody died. They can't however issue a finding that there was a systemic failure by government to provide sufficient PPE. I think the chief coroner (didn't know there was one) is probably right on that.
So it'll still be embarrassing for the government. But not quite as embarrassing. And makes the need for a full enquiry even more pressing.
I took raaaab's announcement that he wanted the UK to be 'customer of choice' for PPE providers worldwide as being an admission they'll pay any stupid price. |  |
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| What’s the point in the inquest? on 18:49 - Apr 29 with 827 views | Swansea_Blue |
| What’s the point in the inquest? on 18:45 - Apr 29 by factual_blue |
I think the coroners can conclude that there were insufficient precautions (including a lack of PPE) at the particular place where somebody died. They can't however issue a finding that there was a systemic failure by government to provide sufficient PPE. I think the chief coroner (didn't know there was one) is probably right on that.
So it'll still be embarrassing for the government. But not quite as embarrassing. And makes the need for a full enquiry even more pressing.
I took raaaab's announcement that he wanted the UK to be 'customer of choice' for PPE providers worldwide as being an admission they'll pay any stupid price. |
I've no problem if that's the case. Didn't look past the headline as I'm trying (failing) to multi-task (which is why I didn't pile into them).
As long as they're allowed to consider the role of PPE in the inquests into the deaths, then fine. As you say, it's then up to a full inquest on the government's response and/or the courts to decide on matters of blame. | |
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| What’s the point in the inquest? on 18:55 - Apr 29 with 819 views | NewcyBlue |
| What’s the point in the inquest? on 18:45 - Apr 29 by factual_blue |
I think the coroners can conclude that there were insufficient precautions (including a lack of PPE) at the particular place where somebody died. They can't however issue a finding that there was a systemic failure by government to provide sufficient PPE. I think the chief coroner (didn't know there was one) is probably right on that.
So it'll still be embarrassing for the government. But not quite as embarrassing. And makes the need for a full enquiry even more pressing.
I took raaaab's announcement that he wanted the UK to be 'customer of choice' for PPE providers worldwide as being an admission they'll pay any stupid price. |
I’m going to refer to something I know.
After the Herald of Free Enterprise, the MAIB was set up.
They found that the crew of the HoFE had been asking for some particular equipment (sensors to see if the bow doors were open).
The company had refused to buy and install these.
The MAIB determined “from top to bottom the body corporate was infected with the disease of sloppiness”.
In the essence this is our government all over. | |
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| What’s the point in the inquest? on 19:04 - Apr 29 with 793 views | BlueBadger |
| What’s the point in the inquest? on 18:49 - Apr 29 by Swansea_Blue |
I've no problem if that's the case. Didn't look past the headline as I'm trying (failing) to multi-task (which is why I didn't pile into them).
As long as they're allowed to consider the role of PPE in the inquests into the deaths, then fine. As you say, it's then up to a full inquest on the government's response and/or the courts to decide on matters of blame. |
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Chief-Coroners-Guidance-No-3
Points 13 and 14 :
'13 In the usual way, it is a matter of judgment for the individual coroner to decide on the scope of each investigation. The coroner must consider the question of scope in the context of providing evidence to answer the four statutory questions.6 Coroners are reminded that an inquest is not the right forum for addressing concerns about high- level government or public policy. The higher courts have repeatedly commented that a coroner’s inquest is not usually the right forum for such issues of general policy to be resolved: see Scholes v SSHD [2006] HRLR 44 at [69]; R (Smith) v Oxfordshire Asst. Deputy Coroner [2011] 1 AC 1 at [81]. In the latter case, Lord Phillips observed that an inquest could properly consider whether a soldier had died because a flak jacket had been pierced by a sniper’s bullet, but would not “be a satisfactory tribunal for investigating whether more effective flak jackets could and should have been supplied by the Ministry of Defence.” By the same reasoning, an inquest would not be a satisfactory means of deciding whether adequate general policies and arrangements were in place for provision of personal protective equipment (PPE) to healthcare workers in the country or a part of it.
14. If the coroner considers that a proper investigation into the death requires that evidence or material be obtained in relation to matters of policy and resourcing (e.g. the adequacy of provision of PPE for clinicians in a particular hospital or department), he or she may choose to suspend the investigation until it becomes clear how such enquiries can best be pursued. In making that decision, the coroner should consider his or her own ability (a) to pursue necessary enquiries to gather evidence and (b) to proceed to an inquest, having regard to the effects of the pandemic and the lockdown restrictions. As advised in previous Guidance, coroners pursuing enquiries with hospitals and clinicians should be sensitive to the additional demands upon them during this period. Coroners have a broad discretion under paragraph 5 of Schedule 1 to the Coroners and Justice Act to suspend an investigation. However, they should be mindful that it may be in the best interests of the bereaved family to proceed with the investigation and inquest in a prompt and timely way. Coroners will need to consider the facts and circumstances of each individual case when making their decisions on how to proceed. Coroners are reminded that, as set out in Guidance No. 36 (Summary of the Coronavirus Act 2020 Provisions Relevant to Coroners)' |  |
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| What’s the point in the inquest? on 19:05 - Apr 29 with 802 views | NewcyBlue |
| What’s the point in the inquest? on 18:49 - Apr 29 by Swansea_Blue |
I've no problem if that's the case. Didn't look past the headline as I'm trying (failing) to multi-task (which is why I didn't pile into them).
As long as they're allowed to consider the role of PPE in the inquests into the deaths, then fine. As you say, it's then up to a full inquest on the government's response and/or the courts to decide on matters of blame. |
Whenever we do a root cause analysis, we find that the root cause is usually because somebody high up shoreside has made a decision, e.g. to cut costs.
If lack of PPE is a finding, then a systematic failure of the government is nothing but reasonable to ascertain. | |
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| What’s the point in the inquest? on 19:07 - Apr 29 with 789 views | BlueBadger |
| What’s the point in the inquest? on 19:05 - Apr 29 by NewcyBlue |
Whenever we do a root cause analysis, we find that the root cause is usually because somebody high up shoreside has made a decision, e.g. to cut costs.
If lack of PPE is a finding, then a systematic failure of the government is nothing but reasonable to ascertain. |
At which point, it becomes a recommendation for public enquiry, as I'm understanding it. [Post edited 29 Apr 2020 19:07]
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| What’s the point in the inquest? on 19:16 - Apr 29 with 769 views | Darth_Koont |
I think we should do all we can to promote a jolly, plucky narrative. This sort of accurate criticism will get us nowhere.
Our leaders also deserve respect and shouldn't be tasked with responsibility. |  |
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| What’s the point in the inquest? on 19:29 - Apr 29 with 740 views | sparks |
Looks like appropriate guidance from the senior coroner to me.
Probably a pretty routine bit of discussion / guidance which has been leapt upon. A coroner looking at a particular death clearly ought not to be delving deeply into governmental issues and policies- but will deal with the specifics of a situation. And can presumably make findings about causes of death including whether appropriate safeguards were in place. A coroner's primary role, as I understand it, is to establish causes and circumstances of death. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| What’s the point in the inquest? on 19:34 - Apr 29 with 724 views | NewcyBlue |
| What’s the point in the inquest? on 19:29 - Apr 29 by sparks |
Looks like appropriate guidance from the senior coroner to me.
Probably a pretty routine bit of discussion / guidance which has been leapt upon. A coroner looking at a particular death clearly ought not to be delving deeply into governmental issues and policies- but will deal with the specifics of a situation. And can presumably make findings about causes of death including whether appropriate safeguards were in place. A coroner's primary role, as I understand it, is to establish causes and circumstances of death. |
Could it not be deemed appropriate to find that government policy regarding PPE to be inadequate, thus a contribution to the death?
If we are finding inadequate PPE to be the cause of death, it’s unreasonable to leave it just there. I understand that this will be beyond the pay grade of a coroner. However, we have to be able to hold the government to account. This can’t be allowed to be swept under the carpet. | |
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| What’s the point in the inquest? on 19:40 - Apr 29 with 717 views | sparks |
| What’s the point in the inquest? on 19:34 - Apr 29 by NewcyBlue |
Could it not be deemed appropriate to find that government policy regarding PPE to be inadequate, thus a contribution to the death?
If we are finding inadequate PPE to be the cause of death, it’s unreasonable to leave it just there. I understand that this will be beyond the pay grade of a coroner. However, we have to be able to hold the government to account. This can’t be allowed to be swept under the carpet. |
I am no coroner- but an investigation of government policy or wider systems sounds too wide for a basic inquest. If the chief coroner is offering the guidance- I am firmly inclined to think that it is proper.
Don't disagree at all on holding to account if there are genuine issues to be addressed. This just looks like a cheap shot at something reasonable and normal by the Guardian to me. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| What’s the point in the inquest? on 19:51 - Apr 29 with 697 views | NewcyBlue |
| What’s the point in the inquest? on 19:40 - Apr 29 by sparks |
I am no coroner- but an investigation of government policy or wider systems sounds too wide for a basic inquest. If the chief coroner is offering the guidance- I am firmly inclined to think that it is proper.
Don't disagree at all on holding to account if there are genuine issues to be addressed. This just looks like a cheap shot at something reasonable and normal by the Guardian to me. |
The lack of PPE, and the amended PPE instructions to NHS staff need to be at front of any inquest.
I’ve always been of the mentality of “do not ask someone to do a job that you’re not willing to do yourself”. I would put money on those looking after the Johnsymonds or whatever the BoJo kid and mother will be known as, will have had all the PPE that they needed, and above the requirements of the latest guidelines. | |
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| What’s the point in the inquest? on 20:01 - Apr 29 with 690 views | sparks |
| What’s the point in the inquest? on 19:51 - Apr 29 by NewcyBlue |
The lack of PPE, and the amended PPE instructions to NHS staff need to be at front of any inquest.
I’ve always been of the mentality of “do not ask someone to do a job that you’re not willing to do yourself”. I would put money on those looking after the Johnsymonds or whatever the BoJo kid and mother will be known as, will have had all the PPE that they needed, and above the requirements of the latest guidelines. |
I think the individual inquest (ie the coroners day job) must focus on the specific circumstances of a death. That would include whether the PPE worn (or not worn) was a factor im the death- but not a wider investigation into policy and logistics.
Its the same as if a coroner was looking at a death in police custody- it would look at what the causes were (i.e. checks were not made on the prisoner at the required intervals) but not into government policy on police funding and numbers which might be a factor in creating the situation.
A wider inquest / enquiry, is of course a different matter. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| What’s the point in the inquest? on 20:08 - Apr 29 with 679 views | NewcyBlue |
| What’s the point in the inquest? on 20:01 - Apr 29 by sparks |
I think the individual inquest (ie the coroners day job) must focus on the specific circumstances of a death. That would include whether the PPE worn (or not worn) was a factor im the death- but not a wider investigation into policy and logistics.
Its the same as if a coroner was looking at a death in police custody- it would look at what the causes were (i.e. checks were not made on the prisoner at the required intervals) but not into government policy on police funding and numbers which might be a factor in creating the situation.
A wider inquest / enquiry, is of course a different matter. |
I understand.
I just fear this is going to be a way of sweeping it under the carpet. I’m angry at the downgraded PPE requirements. I don’t think standing on my doorstep clapping for people like MrsNewcy who work for the NHS, on the frontline and beyond, is anything but lip service.
We need a meaningful change, a payrise to show appreciation and understanding, and then we can start to clap.
I understand the clap though. | |
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| What’s the point in the inquest? on 20:41 - Apr 29 with 652 views | sparks |
| What’s the point in the inquest? on 20:08 - Apr 29 by NewcyBlue |
I understand.
I just fear this is going to be a way of sweeping it under the carpet. I’m angry at the downgraded PPE requirements. I don’t think standing on my doorstep clapping for people like MrsNewcy who work for the NHS, on the frontline and beyond, is anything but lip service.
We need a meaningful change, a payrise to show appreciation and understanding, and then we can start to clap.
I understand the clap though. |
I think there is a genuine and fair issue about logistics and availability of kit. Some of which may well be unavoidable. Some of which probably isnt- and it will be right to investigate that properly in due course.
Though I also think that Hancock blatantly fibbed about it early on which is unacceptable... | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| What’s the point in the inquest? on 23:15 - Apr 29 with 572 views | jaykay |
| What’s the point in the inquest? on 19:29 - Apr 29 by sparks |
Looks like appropriate guidance from the senior coroner to me.
Probably a pretty routine bit of discussion / guidance which has been leapt upon. A coroner looking at a particular death clearly ought not to be delving deeply into governmental issues and policies- but will deal with the specifics of a situation. And can presumably make findings about causes of death including whether appropriate safeguards were in place. A coroner's primary role, as I understand it, is to establish causes and circumstances of death. |
I think you need some more susbtantive evidence for that assertion |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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