| Humanity deserves to die out 10:18 - Sep 15 with 2750 views | ElderGrizzly |
This is utterly horrific (again)
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| Humanity deserves to die out on 10:25 - Sep 15 with 2535 views | Radlett_blue |
Agreed.
I think we should refuse to play them at football. |  |
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| Humanity deserves to die out on 10:41 - Sep 15 with 2494 views | WeWereZombies |
It's bad, but is it any worse than farming sheep and cattle for their meat? |  |
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| Humanity deserves to die out on 10:44 - Sep 15 with 2480 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 10:41 - Sep 15 by WeWereZombies |
It's bad, but is it any worse than farming sheep and cattle for their meat? |
Well yes, as they're not breeding them so it easily becomes unsustainable (I'd have thought?) |  |
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| Humanity deserves to die out on 10:50 - Sep 15 with 2455 views | WeWereZombies |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 10:44 - Sep 15 by Swansea_Blue |
Well yes, as they're not breeding them so it easily becomes unsustainable (I'd have thought?) |
IF every nation hunted dolphins it would be unsustainable, but as it is only the Faroes I doubt that is the case. There again, should the Faroes have a special dispensation for dolphins, Japan for whales, Iceland for puffins? | |
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| Humanity deserves to die out on 10:51 - Sep 15 with 2454 views | Darth_Koont |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 10:44 - Sep 15 by Swansea_Blue |
Well yes, as they're not breeding them so it easily becomes unsustainable (I'd have thought?) |
Agreed. But a different kind of unsustainable as cattle farming in particular threatens a myriad of other species and habitats, not to mention being one of the biggest sources of net CO2.
Cutting out beef and literally weaning ourselves off dairy is one of the most important steps we need to take. |  |
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| Humanity deserves to die out on 11:55 - Sep 15 with 2313 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 10:50 - Sep 15 by WeWereZombies |
IF every nation hunted dolphins it would be unsustainable, but as it is only the Faroes I doubt that is the case. There again, should the Faroes have a special dispensation for dolphins, Japan for whales, Iceland for puffins? |
That's true. I'm not really up to date on dolphin farming tbh. There's a cultural dimension to all of this of course. I can imagine inuits hunting the odd seal on pack ice around Greenland being a lot more 'acceptable' than mass herding of species using boats, for example.
Darth's point about wider environmental impacts of farming also relevant. e.g. is it better to sustainably catch wild salmon than to mass farm in ponds with all the negatives that brings? etc., etc.
It sounds easy to abandon mass farming and move to more sustainable methods, but once you do that and scale up the sustainable methods presumably they they turn into a similar issue as mass farming.
Vegan's the future if we want an optimal solution, and even then there are issues around water and crops once things are scaled up to where they'd need to be if we were all doing it. | |
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| Humanity deserves to die out on 12:11 - Sep 15 with 2274 views | WeWereZombies |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 11:55 - Sep 15 by Swansea_Blue |
That's true. I'm not really up to date on dolphin farming tbh. There's a cultural dimension to all of this of course. I can imagine inuits hunting the odd seal on pack ice around Greenland being a lot more 'acceptable' than mass herding of species using boats, for example.
Darth's point about wider environmental impacts of farming also relevant. e.g. is it better to sustainably catch wild salmon than to mass farm in ponds with all the negatives that brings? etc., etc.
It sounds easy to abandon mass farming and move to more sustainable methods, but once you do that and scale up the sustainable methods presumably they they turn into a similar issue as mass farming.
Vegan's the future if we want an optimal solution, and even then there are issues around water and crops once things are scaled up to where they'd need to be if we were all doing it. |
Agreed that we have to manage down the level of commercial livestock farming, just freeing all the sheep, cattle and pigs would be disastrous for humans and other animals - unless we reintroduced lots of wolves...
Salmon farming is a difficult one, I see a lot of it as I travel out to hills and mountains. They are not farmed in ponds, they are in cages in sheltered bays and sometimes they escape and carry diseases to wild salmon. There has been an ongoing problem with fish lice.
My view on sheep farming has changed in the eight years I have lived abutting crofts but nit completely. It may be a more sustainable method and have lower impact than large scale operations. There again, there are consolidations of crofts going on just like I saw small farms, and not so small farms, in East Suffolk combining fifty or sixty years ago. And climate change is making it easier for crofters to switch from sheep to more lucrative cattle as spring and autumn temperatures rise to complement the already plentiful rainfall and make the grass more lush. | |
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| Humanity deserves to die out on 12:13 - Sep 15 with 2265 views | positivity |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 11:55 - Sep 15 by Swansea_Blue |
That's true. I'm not really up to date on dolphin farming tbh. There's a cultural dimension to all of this of course. I can imagine inuits hunting the odd seal on pack ice around Greenland being a lot more 'acceptable' than mass herding of species using boats, for example.
Darth's point about wider environmental impacts of farming also relevant. e.g. is it better to sustainably catch wild salmon than to mass farm in ponds with all the negatives that brings? etc., etc.
It sounds easy to abandon mass farming and move to more sustainable methods, but once you do that and scale up the sustainable methods presumably they they turn into a similar issue as mass farming.
Vegan's the future if we want an optimal solution, and even then there are issues around water and crops once things are scaled up to where they'd need to be if we were all doing it. |
i don't know if the water is such a big issue.
for instance, it's far more water-costly to grow soya to feed animals who then convert it inefficiently into protein, than to use that same crop to feed humans. |  |
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| Humanity deserves to die out on 17:37 - Sep 15 with 2073 views | eireblue |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 10:41 - Sep 15 by WeWereZombies |
It's bad, but is it any worse than farming sheep and cattle for their meat? |
From the Dolphin or Cow or Sheep's point of view, I guess the answer would be they would all rather not be killed just to satisfy a human preference. |  | | |
| And another thing...or two... on 09:57 - Sep 16 with 1887 views | WeWereZombies |
Thinking on the issues raised in this thread the first thing I want to say is please read the full news piece. A lot of Faroese are as annoyed by this as we are, so the idea of not playing them in internationals is probably counter productive.
Secondly, dramatic as the pictures are, this is an isolated event and incomparable to the millions of wild animals taken every year for bush meat. Given that it is a near certainty that the increase in these practices has contributed to higher incidences of the emergence of otherwise preventable virus borne disease (and you may get your wish of humanity dying out, ElderGrizzly - actually that will probably happen long before the heat death of the Universe anyway, the virus just accelerates the unavoidable) you have to ask why that issue is not on your BBC homepage each and every day:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2020/04/03/coronavirus-wildlife-environme
Having said all that, you have to accept that hunting and foraging are widely practised all over the World and efforts to eradicate them are doomed to failure. The way forward is to engage with the hunting, shooting, fishing communities (many of whom are much more informed about wildlife and have a serious emotional investment in maintaining a healthy environment) in search of an effective balance with, non-human, nature. | |
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| And another thing...or two... on 10:08 - Sep 16 with 1862 views | Darth_Koont |
| And another thing...or two... on 09:57 - Sep 16 by WeWereZombies |
Thinking on the issues raised in this thread the first thing I want to say is please read the full news piece. A lot of Faroese are as annoyed by this as we are, so the idea of not playing them in internationals is probably counter productive.
Secondly, dramatic as the pictures are, this is an isolated event and incomparable to the millions of wild animals taken every year for bush meat. Given that it is a near certainty that the increase in these practices has contributed to higher incidences of the emergence of otherwise preventable virus borne disease (and you may get your wish of humanity dying out, ElderGrizzly - actually that will probably happen long before the heat death of the Universe anyway, the virus just accelerates the unavoidable) you have to ask why that issue is not on your BBC homepage each and every day:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2020/04/03/coronavirus-wildlife-environme
Having said all that, you have to accept that hunting and foraging are widely practised all over the World and efforts to eradicate them are doomed to failure. The way forward is to engage with the hunting, shooting, fishing communities (many of whom are much more informed about wildlife and have a serious emotional investment in maintaining a healthy environment) in search of an effective balance with, non-human, nature. |
Well said.
We’ve had wall-to-wall coverage of the pandemic plus massive economic intervention and personal sacrifice around the world. All the while the unfolding environmental catastrophe is way, way bigger as well as being the underlying cause to the pandemic through humans encroaching more and more on wild habitats.
This is the sort of thing people will look back on in 10, 20 and 50 years (with luck) and say, what the hell were they thinking?!! As bad as slavery, genocide, religious dogma, child brides, homophobia and any other fecked up status quo practice.
The excuse that we didn’t know what we were doing won’t wash either. We’ve got all the information but collectively are choosing to ignore it.
Bunch of @rse. | |
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| Humanity deserves to die out on 11:30 - Sep 16 with 1788 views | monytowbray |
This is also oddly one of the most ethical forms of mass fishing in line with what we have from supermarkets.
Just don’t eat animal products 🤷â€â™‚ï¸ |  |
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| Humanity deserves to die out on 11:32 - Sep 16 with 1780 views | monytowbray |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 10:50 - Sep 15 by WeWereZombies |
IF every nation hunted dolphins it would be unsustainable, but as it is only the Faroes I doubt that is the case. There again, should the Faroes have a special dispensation for dolphins, Japan for whales, Iceland for puffins? |
The FI do it every few years and the local dolphin population has no major issues regrowing, then they do it again.
Industrial fishing wipes out entire eco systems to a worse extent, more often, with more species and more waste.
Sorry but we’re getting close to “Eastern dog meat vs the Western meat diet” levels of hypocrisy already in one page. | |
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| Humanity deserves to die out on 12:01 - Sep 16 with 1727 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 10:50 - Sep 15 by WeWereZombies |
IF every nation hunted dolphins it would be unsustainable, but as it is only the Faroes I doubt that is the case. There again, should the Faroes have a special dispensation for dolphins, Japan for whales, Iceland for puffins? |
Puffins are just cuter ducks. They're hunted in just about the most low-impact* way possible in Iceland (cliff climbing with a hand-held net). The equivalent to this slaughter of the dolphins would be if huge nets were cast over entire cliff faces of puffin burrows.
Only a Vegan who owns no carnivorous pets** can begrudge Hermann his puffin pie, but anyone can be concerned about such large scale killing of an apex (or close to apex) predator in one area.
* unless the hunter slips, then it would be a massive impact.
** or who feeds their dog or cat road kill only. | | | |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 12:06 - Sep 16 with 1707 views | monytowbray |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 12:01 - Sep 16 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Puffins are just cuter ducks. They're hunted in just about the most low-impact* way possible in Iceland (cliff climbing with a hand-held net). The equivalent to this slaughter of the dolphins would be if huge nets were cast over entire cliff faces of puffin burrows.
Only a Vegan who owns no carnivorous pets** can begrudge Hermann his puffin pie, but anyone can be concerned about such large scale killing of an apex (or close to apex) predator in one area.
* unless the hunter slips, then it would be a massive impact.
** or who feeds their dog or cat road kill only. |
Animal food is a byproduct of the meat industry.
I know a few people who feed their cats vegan biscuits and the rest of the time they hunt. It foes work, the cats are fine and very active.
I get the argument there but when it comes from non-vegans it looks like projection. Does having a cat make me a hypocrite, arguably yes and I acknowledge that. Does it mean my personal diet, purchase, clothing and political choices are somehow irrelevant next to an omnivore? I’d argue LOL to that. [Post edited 16 Sep 2021 12:06]
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| Humanity deserves to die out on 12:34 - Sep 16 with 1667 views | positivity |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 12:06 - Sep 16 by monytowbray |
Animal food is a byproduct of the meat industry.
I know a few people who feed their cats vegan biscuits and the rest of the time they hunt. It foes work, the cats are fine and very active.
I get the argument there but when it comes from non-vegans it looks like projection. Does having a cat make me a hypocrite, arguably yes and I acknowledge that. Does it mean my personal diet, purchase, clothing and political choices are somehow irrelevant next to an omnivore? I’d argue LOL to that. [Post edited 16 Sep 2021 12:06]
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in general i agree, but not sure about the cat's hunting bit.
they take a massive amount of native birds, so probably better for the ecosystem if they use the byproducts of the meat industry while it remains instead.
come the day when the meat industry is no longer, then the keeping of carnivorous pets will need looking at! | |
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| Humanity deserves to die out on 12:41 - Sep 16 with 1639 views | monytowbray |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 12:34 - Sep 16 by positivity |
in general i agree, but not sure about the cat's hunting bit.
they take a massive amount of native birds, so probably better for the ecosystem if they use the byproducts of the meat industry while it remains instead.
come the day when the meat industry is no longer, then the keeping of carnivorous pets will need looking at! |
Agree. My partner had a snake before she was vegan and we got rid of her earlier this year as it really doesn’t work as a vegan friendly pet!
I guess with an ecosystem these things manage themselves. Birds can fly and I’ve seen squirrels give a middle finger to cats running off. They usually go for the small land prey with better success.
No shortage where I live, I’m right by a woods and an industrial estate. | |
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| Humanity deserves to die out on 12:50 - Sep 16 with 1606 views | WeWereZombies |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 12:41 - Sep 16 by monytowbray |
Agree. My partner had a snake before she was vegan and we got rid of her earlier this year as it really doesn’t work as a vegan friendly pet!
I guess with an ecosystem these things manage themselves. Birds can fly and I’ve seen squirrels give a middle finger to cats running off. They usually go for the small land prey with better success.
No shortage where I live, I’m right by a woods and an industrial estate. |
That first paragraph reads like you got rid of your partner because she kept a snake...
If you kept a snake as a domestic pet without feeding it but training it to take the neighbourhood cats then the benefits to avian life could outweigh the dead cats - I have recollected this on here before but I read a piece years ago about an administration in India running a campaign to eradicate snakes and as a consequence child mortality from snake bites at ten a year expanded to hundreds dead from rat bites. They stopped the campaign and the snakes came back and carried on their rat eating benefits. | |
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| Humanity deserves to die out on 12:51 - Sep 16 with 1605 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 12:06 - Sep 16 by monytowbray |
Animal food is a byproduct of the meat industry.
I know a few people who feed their cats vegan biscuits and the rest of the time they hunt. It foes work, the cats are fine and very active.
I get the argument there but when it comes from non-vegans it looks like projection. Does having a cat make me a hypocrite, arguably yes and I acknowledge that. Does it mean my personal diet, purchase, clothing and political choices are somehow irrelevant next to an omnivore? I’d argue LOL to that. [Post edited 16 Sep 2021 12:06]
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I'm a meat eater. I also am fine with Icelanders hunting "cute" puffins in their current way.
I'm not fine with those of us, like me, who eat mass market meat lecturing other cultures engaging in traditional practices of sustainable hunting of animals because those animals are cute. I am concerned about the use of technology (motorised boats, large nylon filament nets) to herd and catch so many of an apex predator in one place.
I'm not fine with Vegans or Vegetarians lecturing Icelandic puffin hunters, whilst "owning" cats or dogs, especially if they feed them mass market meat. They may well have a less sustainable life than Icelandic puffin hunters, especially as the majority of vegetables that Icelanders eat are grown in giant green houses heated by geo-thermal energy.
Vegans who don't "own" carnivorous pets are morally consistent, and are doing something that I know I should do. They're living ethically better lives than me, and I should be more like them.
Your personal choices are of course both a personal matter, but also a socio-political one: they impact others. Yours almost certainly impact the world less than mine (depending on how many cats you "own") and I am grateful for that and need to be more like you.
The byproduct line isn't entirely consistent with all those "real meaty chunks" adverts I see for Sheba etc. | | | |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 13:01 - Sep 16 with 1586 views | monytowbray |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 12:51 - Sep 16 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I'm a meat eater. I also am fine with Icelanders hunting "cute" puffins in their current way.
I'm not fine with those of us, like me, who eat mass market meat lecturing other cultures engaging in traditional practices of sustainable hunting of animals because those animals are cute. I am concerned about the use of technology (motorised boats, large nylon filament nets) to herd and catch so many of an apex predator in one place.
I'm not fine with Vegans or Vegetarians lecturing Icelandic puffin hunters, whilst "owning" cats or dogs, especially if they feed them mass market meat. They may well have a less sustainable life than Icelandic puffin hunters, especially as the majority of vegetables that Icelanders eat are grown in giant green houses heated by geo-thermal energy.
Vegans who don't "own" carnivorous pets are morally consistent, and are doing something that I know I should do. They're living ethically better lives than me, and I should be more like them.
Your personal choices are of course both a personal matter, but also a socio-political one: they impact others. Yours almost certainly impact the world less than mine (depending on how many cats you "own") and I am grateful for that and need to be more like you.
The byproduct line isn't entirely consistent with all those "real meaty chunks" adverts I see for Sheba etc. |
If you think anything in cat food is anything other than “byproduct marketed” you’d be mistaken!
Last I checked I hadn’t forced anyone not to survive and I don’t know a vegan who has. That argument is completely factitious.
If you are still eating meat I’d be worrying more about your diet than what my cats eat or making up nonsense to help yourself feel better. | |
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| Humanity deserves to die out on 13:27 - Sep 16 with 1539 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 13:01 - Sep 16 by monytowbray |
If you think anything in cat food is anything other than “byproduct marketed” you’d be mistaken!
Last I checked I hadn’t forced anyone not to survive and I don’t know a vegan who has. That argument is completely factitious.
If you are still eating meat I’d be worrying more about your diet than what my cats eat or making up nonsense to help yourself feel better. |
First Google result: https://www.thesprucepets.com/whats-wrong-with-by-products-554368
distinguishes between by-product and premium pet foods. But by-products still finance the mass market meat industry. Buying a tin with by-products in it is still supporting the mass market meat industry.
Icelanders don't need to eat puffin to survive. It's a choice, with elements of tradition and culture as well as deliciousness and variety in diet thrown in. I'm not talking about "survival only" meat eating (eg some Inuit communities) and I wasn't accusing you or anyone of saying that people couldn't eat meat in a survival situation. Puffin hunting is a very low impact cultural choice.
I haven't made up any nonsense. I completely acknowledge that my lifestyle has a large impact on the planet and that I need to do better.
Meat is really tasty. I have grown up eating meat and I really enjoy it. Giving it up would have a big impact on me, in terms of my lifestyle and also maybe my mental health. It's not something I feel able to do with all the other restrictions and pressures going on in life at the moment. But I can and should eat better sourced meat and eat less meat over all.
Cats and dogs play a role in their "owners" lives that mean they would be hugely impacted by "giving them up", not least in terms of mental health. But we can't escape the fact that large dogs eat way more meat than I do, and contribute vastly more to food impact on the environment.
We all have decisions to make, and sometimes individuals need Governments to push and prod them to make better ones. Hence discussing the large-scale slaughter of these particular apex predators and wondering if anything can be done about it, whilst also acknowledging that we are all far from perfect. | | | |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 13:48 - Sep 16 with 1506 views | monytowbray |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 13:27 - Sep 16 by ArnoldMoorhen |
First Google result: https://www.thesprucepets.com/whats-wrong-with-by-products-554368
distinguishes between by-product and premium pet foods. But by-products still finance the mass market meat industry. Buying a tin with by-products in it is still supporting the mass market meat industry.
Icelanders don't need to eat puffin to survive. It's a choice, with elements of tradition and culture as well as deliciousness and variety in diet thrown in. I'm not talking about "survival only" meat eating (eg some Inuit communities) and I wasn't accusing you or anyone of saying that people couldn't eat meat in a survival situation. Puffin hunting is a very low impact cultural choice.
I haven't made up any nonsense. I completely acknowledge that my lifestyle has a large impact on the planet and that I need to do better.
Meat is really tasty. I have grown up eating meat and I really enjoy it. Giving it up would have a big impact on me, in terms of my lifestyle and also maybe my mental health. It's not something I feel able to do with all the other restrictions and pressures going on in life at the moment. But I can and should eat better sourced meat and eat less meat over all.
Cats and dogs play a role in their "owners" lives that mean they would be hugely impacted by "giving them up", not least in terms of mental health. But we can't escape the fact that large dogs eat way more meat than I do, and contribute vastly more to food impact on the environment.
We all have decisions to make, and sometimes individuals need Governments to push and prod them to make better ones. Hence discussing the large-scale slaughter of these particular apex predators and wondering if anything can be done about it, whilst also acknowledging that we are all far from perfect. |
I've not denied byproducts are a problem, far from. But they exist, and they are largely propped up by the main industry.
My frustration was these imaginary vegans who are forcing people to not eat meat. | |
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| Humanity deserves to die out on 13:56 - Sep 16 with 1480 views | positivity |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 12:41 - Sep 16 by monytowbray |
Agree. My partner had a snake before she was vegan and we got rid of her earlier this year as it really doesn’t work as a vegan friendly pet!
I guess with an ecosystem these things manage themselves. Birds can fly and I’ve seen squirrels give a middle finger to cats running off. They usually go for the small land prey with better success.
No shortage where I live, I’m right by a woods and an industrial estate. |
they're an alien species to the uk, which millions of years of evolution haven't prepared the local avian fauna for.
maybe cats all need ridiculously large bells or retraining to only go for rats/grey squirrels! | |
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| Humanity deserves to die out on 14:02 - Sep 16 with 1465 views | WeWereZombies |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 13:56 - Sep 16 by positivity |
they're an alien species to the uk, which millions of years of evolution haven't prepared the local avian fauna for.
maybe cats all need ridiculously large bells or retraining to only go for rats/grey squirrels! |
No entry for the Faroe Islands on this page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_meat
but
'In January 2011, the Belgian Federal Agency for the Safety of the Food Chain stated that people are not allowed to kill random cats walking in their garden, but "[n]owhere in the law does it say that you can't eat your own pet cat, dog, rabbit, fish or whatever. You just have to kill them in an animal-friendly way.' | |
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| Humanity deserves to die out on 14:25 - Sep 16 with 1444 views | StirlingArcher |
| Humanity deserves to die out on 12:06 - Sep 16 by monytowbray |
Animal food is a byproduct of the meat industry.
I know a few people who feed their cats vegan biscuits and the rest of the time they hunt. It foes work, the cats are fine and very active.
I get the argument there but when it comes from non-vegans it looks like projection. Does having a cat make me a hypocrite, arguably yes and I acknowledge that. Does it mean my personal diet, purchase, clothing and political choices are somehow irrelevant next to an omnivore? I’d argue LOL to that. [Post edited 16 Sep 2021 12:06]
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I freaking hate people who have cats and feed them vegan diet, no matter the surrounding conditions.
If you are looking after an obligate carnivore, then you HAVE to feed them meat. It's not rocket science.
I have been to plenty of vegan fairs to support my partner's animal rescue and there is a rigid split 50/50 of vegan attitudes to pets.
sensible:
I wont have a non vegan pet
I will have a non vegan pet, but will feed it what it needs
Animal Cruelty
I feed my cat a vegan diet and it's a housecat
I have a reptile (non vegan) but only feed it vegan
I know some vegans have turned vegan since owning a pet, and they have to take responsibility for their pets. Most of them admit it makes them feel uncomfortable but they love their pet so will do it for them. |  | | |
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