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I hope it is fair to assume that we will have a General Election before the end of January 2025, and that there will be no move to abolish the five year term or to bring in martial law? Could then, the upcoming demise of the Tories bring to the country (and to us all as individuals) a realisation that the self-centred, wealth- and consumption-obsessed way of life is not only terminally stupid in environmental terms, but also leaves personal satisfaction and happiness permanently 'just over the horizon'? Can we possibly hope for a positive and progressive backlash?
We live in a country of ever-declining decency and degraded nature which feels like it is very close to breaking point on both the social and environmental fronts. Our rivers are poisoned, our ancient woodlands are grubbed up in the name of progress, greenfield sites are bulldozed for investment properties and our pollinators and birds are disappearing at a terrifying rate. Families are starving and freezing whilst corporations pick the pockets of the most unfortunate, and we who may be more fortunate happily take our dividends and watch our investment portfolios accrue.
We need to be big enough to put aside petty materialistic envy and utilise the shared shame of what we are as a country as a springboard to propel us into a fair, sustainable(-ish) future where progress is a saved wetland and its species or a fed family, and growth is a new deciduous not-for-profit woodland planted solely to mop up our past excesses. We need to be prepared to make real personal sacrifices in our expectations of consumerism, air travel and reliance on 'the system' to dispose of our consciences along with our plastic tat.
We've been on the downward curve for a very long time, but we have accelerated downwards horrifically this century, and particularly in the last ten years or so. We need to take this ideal opportunity of the next couple of years to challenge ourselves as to what we want to take from the world now, and what we want to leave behind for our children and for the rest of nature. If enough of us as individuals respond to that self-challenging and openly and consistently act in a humble and minimalist and selfless and caring way, we might create an electorate capable of forcing this attitude upwards into government.
Can't see it. Our 'free' press is owned by people whose interests are served by exactly the opposite of the positive vision you would like to see for the country, and whilst that's the case there is no hope of fundamental social change in the UK.
The whole system is rotten, right down to a local level. Our councils make some of the worst decisions going (and at least where I live) it doesn’t matter what colour they wear. The Tory council was voted out due to concreting over any nice green space they could find (to presumably line their pockets). Labour council gave planning permission to build on green belt land and despite protests and court cases went ahead and bulldozed ancient trees to build houses.
All leaves you with very little hope.
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Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 10:06 - Mar 11 with 1304 views
Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 09:59 - Mar 11 by Herbivore
Can't see it. Our 'free' press is owned by people whose interests are served by exactly the opposite of the positive vision you would like to see for the country, and whilst that's the case there is no hope of fundamental social change in the UK.
I hear you. At present a subset of the electorate are 'informed' by that 'free' press. They also might be seen as being heavily influenced by celebrity.
Is there any hope that further degradation of our country and its values might result in that subset seeing a bit of light and choosing to be informed by the likes of Attenborough or Lineker, and other more sensible celebrities? I'd like to see some sort of celebrity coalition put together to try to operate as a political force.
Unfortunately we have neither the politicians nor the political media who agree with enough of that. Change that brings the UK into the 21st Century and helps millions of the population who have been left behind or even starts to tackle the scale of climate change is certainly not in their own interests nor those of their backers/donors.
At best, we’ll see a lot of hand-wringing in public and blaming of the other side for continued decline.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 10:14 - Mar 11 with 1271 views
Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 10:06 - Mar 11 by NthQldITFC
I hear you. At present a subset of the electorate are 'informed' by that 'free' press. They also might be seen as being heavily influenced by celebrity.
Is there any hope that further degradation of our country and its values might result in that subset seeing a bit of light and choosing to be informed by the likes of Attenborough or Lineker, and other more sensible celebrities? I'd like to see some sort of celebrity coalition put together to try to operate as a political force.
Attenborough yes - he’s a national treasure.
But imagine putting up a man who’s fighting a £5m tax bill in court telling people they need to pay more tax for a fairer society…
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Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 10:26 - Mar 11 with 1220 views
Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 10:14 - Mar 11 by SuperKieranMcKenna
Attenborough yes - he’s a national treasure.
But imagine putting up a man who’s fighting a £5m tax bill in court telling people they need to pay more tax for a fairer society…
I kind of think that that's an illustration of the way we need be capable of dealing with non-binary matters though. We are all, I think, to a greater or lesser extent hypocritical in parts of our life and in our political thinking.
So as far as Lineker is concerned for example, is it not possible for an observer to say "I can support and thank Gary and his efforts on the migrant front, whilst I ask him to think again about his tax bill." And for Lineker to be able to say, "I am aware of the concerns about my tax affairs and recognise that I may be wrong in this matter. The court will decide. In the meantime I will continue with my other efforts."
We need to take the ego out of so much of our negotiation and public stance on matters, so that we can cooperate and compromise and move forward. In other words we need to grow up fast. The Humility Party, is what it should be called.
Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 10:26 - Mar 11 by NthQldITFC
I kind of think that that's an illustration of the way we need be capable of dealing with non-binary matters though. We are all, I think, to a greater or lesser extent hypocritical in parts of our life and in our political thinking.
So as far as Lineker is concerned for example, is it not possible for an observer to say "I can support and thank Gary and his efforts on the migrant front, whilst I ask him to think again about his tax bill." And for Lineker to be able to say, "I am aware of the concerns about my tax affairs and recognise that I may be wrong in this matter. The court will decide. In the meantime I will continue with my other efforts."
We need to take the ego out of so much of our negotiation and public stance on matters, so that we can cooperate and compromise and move forward. In other words we need to grow up fast. The Humility Party, is what it should be called.
I guess it depends on the outcome of the case, perhaps he’s been unfairly scrutinised.
But if he’s found guilty, then surely the last thing we need is more tax dodging politicians- look where that’s got us. I’d like politicians who are consistent, decent, and want to improve the country rather than enhance their own wealth.
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Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 10:33 - Mar 11 with 1208 views
Think that's a little optimistic, these social attitude changes can take decades to ferment and come to fruition.
However, it's also likely (barring exceptional circumstances) that the Conservatives will be out of power for quite a while, so there is time for adjustments to happen. Moreover, the party will be changed in that time, necessarily softening its position in order to attract a critical mass of voters.
Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 10:26 - Mar 11 by NthQldITFC
I kind of think that that's an illustration of the way we need be capable of dealing with non-binary matters though. We are all, I think, to a greater or lesser extent hypocritical in parts of our life and in our political thinking.
So as far as Lineker is concerned for example, is it not possible for an observer to say "I can support and thank Gary and his efforts on the migrant front, whilst I ask him to think again about his tax bill." And for Lineker to be able to say, "I am aware of the concerns about my tax affairs and recognise that I may be wrong in this matter. The court will decide. In the meantime I will continue with my other efforts."
We need to take the ego out of so much of our negotiation and public stance on matters, so that we can cooperate and compromise and move forward. In other words we need to grow up fast. The Humility Party, is what it should be called.
To answer your specific example with a question; why is it even in court? Whose fault is that?
I would add that you don’t sound like you want “compromise”. This is something I note on here all the time when people talk about grown up politics compromise understanding etc. There is no compromise with an evangelist.
In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 10:38 - Mar 11 by Guthrum
Think that's a little optimistic, these social attitude changes can take decades to ferment and come to fruition.
However, it's also likely (barring exceptional circumstances) that the Conservatives will be out of power for quite a while, so there is time for adjustments to happen. Moreover, the party will be changed in that time, necessarily softening its position in order to attract a critical mass of voters.
I completely agree that it is on the (very!) optimistic side, but I wonder if the scale of the problems we face, both social and environmental, in terms of imminence and impact, coupled with the ease and capability of modern mass communication, might enable a much more rapid and profound social attitude change than we have seen in the past.
Technology and communications trends with instant gratification have undoubtedly resulted in some very negative and poisonous impacts on society, but perhaps the same rapid and widespread capabilities of social media can work in the opposite direction too?
Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 10:41 - Mar 11 by chicoazul
To answer your specific example with a question; why is it even in court? Whose fault is that?
I would add that you don’t sound like you want “compromise”. This is something I note on here all the time when people talk about grown up politics compromise understanding etc. There is no compromise with an evangelist.
I hear you, and I am challenging myself about what you wrote.
Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 10:09 - Mar 11 by Darth_Koont
You’re spot on.
Unfortunately we have neither the politicians nor the political media who agree with enough of that. Change that brings the UK into the 21st Century and helps millions of the population who have been left behind or even starts to tackle the scale of climate change is certainly not in their own interests nor those of their backers/donors.
At best, we’ll see a lot of hand-wringing in public and blaming of the other side for continued decline.
And on the immorality of Braverman's proposals, Labour have very much kept their head down, instead attacking the unworkability of the proposals, and in Yvette Cooper's case (as well as a few other Labour MPs I have heard) saying that Lineker was wrong to say what he did.
This, to me, shows the timidity of Labour, something I believe they will be hamstrung by when in Government because if they don't make the case for progressive policies when in opposition, and with such a lead in the polls, the right wing press will realise they have the upper hand and severely limit what Labour can do.
[Post edited 11 Mar 2023 10:58]
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Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 11:07 - Mar 11 with 1098 views
We have been on a downward curve from a long time. Greed, selfishness, lining pockets at the expense of others if necessary, look after no 1 are prime motivation for many in this country. It actually pre-dates Thatcher but she legitimised it.
This country is a filthy tip. The rivers and coasts fast becoming sewers and few people care. For example, just travel down the A12 and see what so many people tip out of their windows on the verges and hard shoulders. Somebody else’s problem. I’m ok. Who cares. If challenged, F off or a slap in the mouth is the default setting.
Will this change? One day, but probably not in my lifetime. True change takes generations in my view.
So where do we start? At the top. The last 13 years in particular have been a horrendous time of bogus ideology, greed and epic stupidity all in the laudable (to them) cause of filling their own boots. Everybody else? Make your own arrangements. If you are disadvantaged, s0d off and work harder - and be grateful.
The Labour Party are no paragons of virtue, as Blair and co amply proved, but the basic stance, the aims and objectives of most of them are an improvement on ‘I don’t mind how much sewage fills the rivers provided I get a comfy seat on the board of the water company making a big fat profit’. A made up example but you get the drift.
The country needs a reset on just about everything from education, through to our relationships with our neighbours. That includes the constitution which looks seriously outmoded.
Can it be done? Of course. If you look at what was done after the war in terms of rebuilding the country and the welfare state creation etc it shows you anything is possible. The tories will tell you that small state, cuts and more cuts are the way forward. Wrong. Look at what South Korea have managed to do. Look at what Germany did post 1945. Ok, there was the Marshall Plan - but at least they had a plan to rebuild and re-educate a whole country and these things tells me anything is do-able.
Are Starmer and co capable and strong enough to create real change? I hope so and while I have severe doubts, they deserve the chance. If nothing else, can they be any worse than the awful self serving shower currently stinking the place out at everyones expense?
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Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 11:07 - Mar 11 with 1095 views
Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 10:52 - Mar 11 by NthQldITFC
I hear you, and I am challenging myself about what you wrote.
Let’s have an example. You’re the leader of the Labour Party and I’m the leader of the Liberals. We have the opportunity to form a coalition government. You want me and my MPs to support your policy on for eg child poverty which involves you giving free hot school meals twice a day to all children. I say yes if we can reinstate academic selection at 11 and build/reform 400 new grammar schools as I and my party feel this is one of the best solutions to child poverty and social mobility. Do you agree?
In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 10:50 - Mar 11 by NthQldITFC
I completely agree that it is on the (very!) optimistic side, but I wonder if the scale of the problems we face, both social and environmental, in terms of imminence and impact, coupled with the ease and capability of modern mass communication, might enable a much more rapid and profound social attitude change than we have seen in the past.
Technology and communications trends with instant gratification have undoubtedly resulted in some very negative and poisonous impacts on society, but perhaps the same rapid and widespread capabilities of social media can work in the opposite direction too?
People's attitudes tend to change because they feel socially/economically oppressed or constrained. Arguably things are still generally pretty comfortable for the vast majority in this country. Some people get revved up about climate change, but in terms of UK perceptible impact, it's still pretty peripheral at the moment (unless you live on the edge of an eroding cliff). That's not enough to push most into real activism.
Also, change tends to be generational, as an older, more settled generation is pushed out by their children. Currently middle aged people - who form the bulk of the population and, more significantly, electorate - benfitted from technological, lifestyle and economic improvements in the 1980s to 2000s and they are often more interested in seeking a preservation of or return to that than radical change.
Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 11:07 - Mar 11 by Churchman
We have been on a downward curve from a long time. Greed, selfishness, lining pockets at the expense of others if necessary, look after no 1 are prime motivation for many in this country. It actually pre-dates Thatcher but she legitimised it.
This country is a filthy tip. The rivers and coasts fast becoming sewers and few people care. For example, just travel down the A12 and see what so many people tip out of their windows on the verges and hard shoulders. Somebody else’s problem. I’m ok. Who cares. If challenged, F off or a slap in the mouth is the default setting.
Will this change? One day, but probably not in my lifetime. True change takes generations in my view.
So where do we start? At the top. The last 13 years in particular have been a horrendous time of bogus ideology, greed and epic stupidity all in the laudable (to them) cause of filling their own boots. Everybody else? Make your own arrangements. If you are disadvantaged, s0d off and work harder - and be grateful.
The Labour Party are no paragons of virtue, as Blair and co amply proved, but the basic stance, the aims and objectives of most of them are an improvement on ‘I don’t mind how much sewage fills the rivers provided I get a comfy seat on the board of the water company making a big fat profit’. A made up example but you get the drift.
The country needs a reset on just about everything from education, through to our relationships with our neighbours. That includes the constitution which looks seriously outmoded.
Can it be done? Of course. If you look at what was done after the war in terms of rebuilding the country and the welfare state creation etc it shows you anything is possible. The tories will tell you that small state, cuts and more cuts are the way forward. Wrong. Look at what South Korea have managed to do. Look at what Germany did post 1945. Ok, there was the Marshall Plan - but at least they had a plan to rebuild and re-educate a whole country and these things tells me anything is do-able.
Are Starmer and co capable and strong enough to create real change? I hope so and while I have severe doubts, they deserve the chance. If nothing else, can they be any worse than the awful self serving shower currently stinking the place out at everyones expense?
I wouldn’t look too closely at who the new breed of Labour politician is these days – they’re right-wingers (though certainly not as extreme as many of the Tories) who also want to please donors and corporate backers and make money out of it.
They won’t challenge or change anything that goes against those interests or their own self-interests. Unless the British electorate pulls them that way – but in a two-horse race they don’t even need to do that.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 11:24 - Mar 11 with 1057 views
Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 11:18 - Mar 11 by Darth_Koont
I wouldn’t look too closely at who the new breed of Labour politician is these days – they’re right-wingers (though certainly not as extreme as many of the Tories) who also want to please donors and corporate backers and make money out of it.
They won’t challenge or change anything that goes against those interests or their own self-interests. Unless the British electorate pulls them that way – but in a two-horse race they don’t even need to do that.
I know where you sit politically, DK and for you they are right wing. For me, they are more left of centre. Does that mean anything much will get done? It’s more hope than expectation from me, as indicated in my post.
So while I disagree with part of your first paragraph, I certainly agree with the second.
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Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 11:24 - Mar 11 with 1057 views
Superb stuff, you're becoming one of my fav posters.
I think that time itself may achieve this.
1. Because all the school-kids & young people that I know are brilliant, far less selfish & more globally aware generation than my own
2. Because the largest Tory-voting age-group, ie senior cits, are literally dying out.
3. Because, sadly,as it becomes increasingly clear from wildfires, floods, famines etc. (incl. quite likely future pandemics) that our poor planet will not sustain life for their kids, grandkids or greats, the next generation all over the world will be *forced* to fundamentally change how humans do stuff.
Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 11:24 - Mar 11 by Ryorry
Superb stuff, you're becoming one of my fav posters.
I think that time itself may achieve this.
1. Because all the school-kids & young people that I know are brilliant, far less selfish & more globally aware generation than my own
2. Because the largest Tory-voting age-group, ie senior cits, are literally dying out.
3. Because, sadly,as it becomes increasingly clear from wildfires, floods, famines etc. (incl. quite likely future pandemics) that our poor planet will not sustain life for their kids, grandkids or greats, the next generation all over the world will be *forced* to fundamentally change how humans do stuff.
Young people slowly become senior citizens.
In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 11:24 - Mar 11 by Churchman
I know where you sit politically, DK and for you they are right wing. For me, they are more left of centre. Does that mean anything much will get done? It’s more hope than expectation from me, as indicated in my post.
So while I disagree with part of your first paragraph, I certainly agree with the second.
They’re categorically centre-right on the economy and the underlying settlement. Truly light years away from what the OP is talking about.
They’re largely socially liberal, yes, but even then it’s the easy, superficial kind. When it comes to big issues like the right to protest, strike and looking after marginalised groups etc. things that demand change or at least protecting rights, they’ve really been very poor.
The real issue is that objectively the centre in the UK and the resulting scope of the debate and the solutions is a lot further to the right than it should be. That in itself is one of the main reasons that we’ve seen the slide as somehow normal or at least inevitable.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 11:35 - Mar 11 with 1029 views
Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 11:35 - Mar 11 by Ryorry
You've spectacularly missed the point.
Really? I think I’ve pointed out one of the fundamental flaws in your argument.
In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
I remember when the CSER paper came last year by Kemp et al. ( https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2108146119) and we had some quite prominent climate scientists desperately trying to discredit the work as this didn't fit with their hot swap agenda. As Einstein stated we need to define the problem and it seems we haven't even got that far yet with endless arguments about what might or might not be possible. It is maddening when there are things that could make a real difference.
I saw your post on a EU style response but didn't have the time to reply - there is a book coming out by Simon Sharpe called Five Times Faster which I thought you might find interesting. Simon worked at the Department for Climate Change/BEIS and he goes through the problems he encountered trying to get policymakers to enact change as well as some of the successes he had. He integrates a physics based complexity economics to his work and shares a similar distain for the nonsense that economists and business schools parrot on a daily basis.
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