| Why are we still backing this? 09:55 - Nov 1 with 3526 views | Darth_Koont |
And how is this leading towards peace and stability for both Israeli and Palestinian civilians, not to mention the wider region?
Considering how we and the US misread Afghanistan and Iraq I think we need to be much more solid on what the actual plan is. Especially as it’s looking like more and more of the same self-interest and callous indifference to brown people.
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impac |  |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 10:08 - Nov 1 with 2364 views | Zapers |
Here we go again. |  | | |
| Why are we still backing this? on 10:10 - Nov 1 with 2340 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are we still backing this? on 10:08 - Nov 1 by Zapers |
Here we go again. |
My point exactly. | |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 10:19 - Nov 1 with 2270 views | PassionNotAnger |
What do you think the plan should be?
What do you think would be an appropriate response from Israel to the Hamas attack in Oct?
I don’t have any answers to such a complex situation, I think I’m barely capable of identifying the right questions to ask but for people to discuss (or debate) things it would perhaps be helpful for those who feel better qualified or with more knowledge to offer their views on solutions or resolutions. | | | |
| Why are we still backing this? on 10:31 - Nov 1 with 2221 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are we still backing this? on 10:19 - Nov 1 by PassionNotAnger |
What do you think the plan should be?
What do you think would be an appropriate response from Israel to the Hamas attack in Oct?
I don’t have any answers to such a complex situation, I think I’m barely capable of identifying the right questions to ask but for people to discuss (or debate) things it would perhaps be helpful for those who feel better qualified or with more knowledge to offer their views on solutions or resolutions. |
There needs to be de-escalation starting with a ceasefire. As horrific as the Hamas attacks were the response against the civilian population is disproportionate, criminal, traumatic and de-stabilising. Not to mention that the response is spilling over into the West Bank and the wider region.
Ultimately the plan has to recognize the rights of both sets of civilians. Currently, we are taking the side of the racist extremists in the Israeli government who have ethnic cleansing and genocide on the agenda under the more palatable “right to self-defence” banner. | |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 10:34 - Nov 1 with 2182 views | GlasgowBlue |
Another thread deleted by DanTheMan 1 Nov 2023 9:57I'm just going to repeat my plea, can we please have one thread for it? It's tiring to see arguments popping up in other places, and ambiguous thread titles that turn out to be another hot take which don't warrant their own thread but end up in the same arguments.
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| Why are we still backing this? on 10:40 - Nov 1 with 2142 views | noggin |
I see they bombed a refugee camp because they said a Hamas leader was hiding there. Civilian casualties were collateral damage. I wonder, if this guy had been hiding among Israeli civilians, would they have bombed the area? |  |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 10:40 - Nov 1 with 2143 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are we still backing this? on 10:34 - Nov 1 by GlasgowBlue |
Another thread deleted by DanTheMan 1 Nov 2023 9:57I'm just going to repeat my plea, can we please have one thread for it? It's tiring to see arguments popping up in other places, and ambiguous thread titles that turn out to be another hot take which don't warrant their own thread but end up in the same arguments.
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It’s an ongoing crime against humanity and one where we are increasingly complicit.
But feel free to create your own dedicated thread if you want. | |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 10:48 - Nov 1 with 2020 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Why are we still backing this? on 10:40 - Nov 1 by Darth_Koont |
It’s an ongoing crime against humanity and one where we are increasingly complicit.
But feel free to create your own dedicated thread if you want. |
I’m in agreement with Dan and many other posters. I’m quite happy to condemn Israel’s bombing of innocent Palestinian civilians, condemn the cutting of water and electricity to Gaza and brand Netanyahu a war criminal on one dedicated thread. I’ll also do so multiple times on the same thread.
But I do have some sympathy with Phil’s point that he made in an earlier deleted thread. | |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 10:59 - Nov 1 with 1943 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are we still backing this? on 10:48 - Nov 1 by GlasgowBlue |
I’m in agreement with Dan and many other posters. I’m quite happy to condemn Israel’s bombing of innocent Palestinian civilians, condemn the cutting of water and electricity to Gaza and brand Netanyahu a war criminal on one dedicated thread. I’ll also do so multiple times on the same thread.
But I do have some sympathy with Phil’s point that he made in an earlier deleted thread. |
So you’re also calling for a ceasefire? Your condemnation otherwise is meaningless.
This is our politicians’ line too and cover for what they’re really supporting.
I missed whatever happened or was said yesterday. I’ll be honest though — I don’t really care about the sensibilities of forum users when we’re dealing with such an awful and worsening situation for the world. | |
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| This is a genuine question…. on 11:03 - Nov 1 with 1892 views | Bloots |
| Why are we still backing this? on 10:59 - Nov 1 by Darth_Koont |
So you’re also calling for a ceasefire? Your condemnation otherwise is meaningless.
This is our politicians’ line too and cover for what they’re really supporting.
I missed whatever happened or was said yesterday. I’ll be honest though — I don’t really care about the sensibilities of forum users when we’re dealing with such an awful and worsening situation for the world. |
…so please don’t read anything into it.
Do you post your views/opinions, specifically those relating to “politics” and the wider aspects of it, on any other forums? |  |
| Enduringly lovable, intelligent and thunderingly exquisite. |
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| This is a genuine question…. on 11:04 - Nov 1 with 1875 views | Blueschev |
| This is a genuine question…. on 11:03 - Nov 1 by Bloots |
…so please don’t read anything into it.
Do you post your views/opinions, specifically those relating to “politics” and the wider aspects of it, on any other forums? |
You think it's bad here? You should see the rows he gets in on Mumsnet. |  | | |
| Why are we still backing this? on 11:08 - Nov 1 with 1824 views | lowhouseblue |
| Why are we still backing this? on 10:59 - Nov 1 by Darth_Koont |
So you’re also calling for a ceasefire? Your condemnation otherwise is meaningless.
This is our politicians’ line too and cover for what they’re really supporting.
I missed whatever happened or was said yesterday. I’ll be honest though — I don’t really care about the sensibilities of forum users when we’re dealing with such an awful and worsening situation for the world. |
combined with the release of the hostages and the disarmament of hamas a ceasefire would be a wonderful outcome. but given that we see no prospect of those things, calling for a ceasefire in the abstract is really just a political tactic to try and isolate israel. such calls are a one-sided campaigning tactic to align with a pre-existing agenda and make no difference to the reality of the situation. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This is a genuine question…. on 11:10 - Nov 1 with 1790 views | Darth_Koont |
| This is a genuine question…. on 11:03 - Nov 1 by Bloots |
…so please don’t read anything into it.
Do you post your views/opinions, specifically those relating to “politics” and the wider aspects of it, on any other forums? |
Not on other forums, no. Do you or anyone else?
One of the best things about TWTD is the exchange of views over a much wider scope than just ITFC and football. But if people just want to focus on the football part they can. | |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 11:14 - Nov 1 with 1744 views | wkj |
| Why are we still backing this? on 11:08 - Nov 1 by lowhouseblue |
combined with the release of the hostages and the disarmament of hamas a ceasefire would be a wonderful outcome. but given that we see no prospect of those things, calling for a ceasefire in the abstract is really just a political tactic to try and isolate israel. such calls are a one-sided campaigning tactic to align with a pre-existing agenda and make no difference to the reality of the situation. |
" calling for a ceasefire in the abstract is really just a political tactic to try and isolate israel."
I suspect in some cases it might, but it's not a blanket condition and should not be treated as one. It certainly shouldn't then become a blanket accusation that someone has a pre-existing agenda if they are wanting to see a ceasefire.
This whole situation is two sets of civilians caught in the middle of a powerplay between people in power - and I like to think a good number of people on here are appalled for our brothers and sisters who are caught piggy in the middle. [Post edited 1 Nov 2023 14:48]
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| Why are we still backing this? on 11:15 - Nov 1 with 1741 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are we still backing this? on 11:08 - Nov 1 by lowhouseblue |
combined with the release of the hostages and the disarmament of hamas a ceasefire would be a wonderful outcome. but given that we see no prospect of those things, calling for a ceasefire in the abstract is really just a political tactic to try and isolate israel. such calls are a one-sided campaigning tactic to align with a pre-existing agenda and make no difference to the reality of the situation. |
It’s no less abstract than the idea that peace will come from the release of the hostages and the disarmament of Hamas. When we’re talking about war crimes to achieve it.
And a much more solid plan than leaving it to a racist, extremist Israeli government to navigate given they have a solid track record of ethnic cleansing and oppression even before October 7th. | |
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| That’s what I suspected. (n/t) on 11:19 - Nov 1 with 1646 views | Bloots |
| This is a genuine question…. on 11:10 - Nov 1 by Darth_Koont |
Not on other forums, no. Do you or anyone else?
One of the best things about TWTD is the exchange of views over a much wider scope than just ITFC and football. But if people just want to focus on the football part they can. |
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| Enduringly lovable, intelligent and thunderingly exquisite. |
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| That’s what I suspected. (n/t) on 11:23 - Nov 1 with 1623 views | Darth_Koont |
| That’s what I suspected. (n/t) on 11:19 - Nov 1 by Bloots |
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And?
You probably don’t want to hear my suspicions about you and the others who always end up trying to shut down these discussions. Now THAT is a thread on its own. | |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 11:26 - Nov 1 with 1581 views | lowhouseblue |
| Why are we still backing this? on 11:15 - Nov 1 by Darth_Koont |
It’s no less abstract than the idea that peace will come from the release of the hostages and the disarmament of Hamas. When we’re talking about war crimes to achieve it.
And a much more solid plan than leaving it to a racist, extremist Israeli government to navigate given they have a solid track record of ethnic cleansing and oppression even before October 7th. |
as i say, you're just pushing a pre-existing agenda.
in terms of racism, i'm not sure that your attempt in the op to draw any line between 'brown people' and i assume some other un-labeled group within the population west asia including israel is terribly helpful. the make up of the israeli population clearly doesn't fit any such simplistic dichotomy. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Start it then…. on 11:27 - Nov 1 with 1542 views | Bloots |
| That’s what I suspected. (n/t) on 11:23 - Nov 1 by Darth_Koont |
And?
You probably don’t want to hear my suspicions about you and the others who always end up trying to shut down these discussions. Now THAT is a thread on its own. |
….have the courage of your convictions.
See how it goes for you. | |
| Enduringly lovable, intelligent and thunderingly exquisite. |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 11:30 - Nov 1 with 1490 views | Radlett_blue |
| Why are we still backing this? on 10:31 - Nov 1 by Darth_Koont |
There needs to be de-escalation starting with a ceasefire. As horrific as the Hamas attacks were the response against the civilian population is disproportionate, criminal, traumatic and de-stabilising. Not to mention that the response is spilling over into the West Bank and the wider region.
Ultimately the plan has to recognize the rights of both sets of civilians. Currently, we are taking the side of the racist extremists in the Israeli government who have ethnic cleansing and genocide on the agenda under the more palatable “right to self-defence” banner. |
Hmm...we've been down this road with the Israelis & the Palestinians several times in the last 100 years or so. After the recent Hamas attacks - the worst on civilians in Israel's history - the Israelis are NOT going to go for a cease-fire. Their leaders - and plenty of their people - want revenge. A by-product of Israel's increased assaults on Gaza may well be to make the pace near uninhabitable, which may suit the Israelis very well, although it will create 1m+ refugees, whom neither Egypt nor Joran want or have the capacity to deal with.
Like many on here, I am very uncomfortable with our government standing next to Israel on this one, given the barbaric siege mentality of cutting off water & electricity supplies from Gaza & the disregard for the lives of innocent Palestinians as Israel seeks to eradicate Hamas. There have been times when a 2 state solution seemed possible - although I am sceptical about how long this would have remained peaceful - but it is now further away than ever & isn't going to happen in the next 10 years, if at all. |  |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 11:31 - Nov 1 with 1483 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are we still backing this? on 11:26 - Nov 1 by lowhouseblue |
as i say, you're just pushing a pre-existing agenda.
in terms of racism, i'm not sure that your attempt in the op to draw any line between 'brown people' and i assume some other un-labeled group within the population west asia including israel is terribly helpful. the make up of the israeli population clearly doesn't fit any such simplistic dichotomy. |
Or pre-existing facts from recent history and in how we’ve reacted to the current situation.
The connection is how we tend to treat “brown people” differently and more on our own terms. Consciously or subconsciously doesn’t really matter, that’s been the result. | |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 11:37 - Nov 1 with 1396 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are we still backing this? on 11:30 - Nov 1 by Radlett_blue |
Hmm...we've been down this road with the Israelis & the Palestinians several times in the last 100 years or so. After the recent Hamas attacks - the worst on civilians in Israel's history - the Israelis are NOT going to go for a cease-fire. Their leaders - and plenty of their people - want revenge. A by-product of Israel's increased assaults on Gaza may well be to make the pace near uninhabitable, which may suit the Israelis very well, although it will create 1m+ refugees, whom neither Egypt nor Joran want or have the capacity to deal with.
Like many on here, I am very uncomfortable with our government standing next to Israel on this one, given the barbaric siege mentality of cutting off water & electricity supplies from Gaza & the disregard for the lives of innocent Palestinians as Israel seeks to eradicate Hamas. There have been times when a 2 state solution seemed possible - although I am sceptical about how long this would have remained peaceful - but it is now further away than ever & isn't going to happen in the next 10 years, if at all. |
I agree overall.
But this is why we can’t back the Israelis to this extent. We’ve gone past the threshold of revenge unless revenge/right to self-defence now justifies war crimes and genocide. That rightly wouldn’t be used to justify the Hamas massacre as a response to decades of occupation and oppression, and especially the last decade where it’s been escalated by the Israelis against the non-Hamas West Bank. | |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 11:37 - Nov 1 with 1396 views | noggin |
| Why are we still backing this? on 11:08 - Nov 1 by lowhouseblue |
combined with the release of the hostages and the disarmament of hamas a ceasefire would be a wonderful outcome. but given that we see no prospect of those things, calling for a ceasefire in the abstract is really just a political tactic to try and isolate israel. such calls are a one-sided campaigning tactic to align with a pre-existing agenda and make no difference to the reality of the situation. |
Didn't Qatar say, just a few days ago, that they had brokered the release of hostages, on the prerequisite of a complete ceasefire? It didn't happen because the bombing continued. | |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 11:40 - Nov 1 with 1380 views | lowhouseblue |
| Why are we still backing this? on 11:31 - Nov 1 by Darth_Koont |
Or pre-existing facts from recent history and in how we’ve reacted to the current situation.
The connection is how we tend to treat “brown people” differently and more on our own terms. Consciously or subconsciously doesn’t really matter, that’s been the result. |
but by implication you're labelling one group as 'brown' and one group as 'not brown'. the geographic boundaries don't run on those lines. many of those massacred in the pogrom of 7th october would also meet your criteria. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Start it then…. on 11:43 - Nov 1 with 1344 views | Darth_Koont |
| Start it then…. on 11:27 - Nov 1 by Bloots |
….have the courage of your convictions.
See how it goes for you. |
Sounds like a plan.
For now, I’m more interested in discussing the need for a ceasefire to end war crimes. | |
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