| Reform 14:50 - Jul 5 with 3251 views | Zx1988 |
So now they think that referenda are not sacrosanct?
Help me out here, Midge. |  |
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| Reform on 14:52 - Jul 5 with 2890 views | NeedhamChris |
I can help you out, you don't understand your subject matter. That's on you not Reform.
There has been no referendum on proportional representation in this country, only a cobbled together alternative. | |
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| Reform on 14:54 - Jul 5 with 2877 views | Zx1988 |
| Reform on 14:52 - Jul 5 by NeedhamChris |
I can help you out, you don't understand your subject matter. That's on you not Reform.
There has been no referendum on proportional representation in this country, only a cobbled together alternative. |
And the Brexit referendum was based on a cobbled-together bunch of lies.
They can't just scream 'the referendum is sacrosanct' whenever it suits their purposes. | |
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| Reform on 15:00 - Jul 5 with 2816 views | NeedhamChris |
| Reform on 14:54 - Jul 5 by Zx1988 |
And the Brexit referendum was based on a cobbled-together bunch of lies.
They can't just scream 'the referendum is sacrosanct' whenever it suits their purposes. |
I haven't heard them screaming that. I've only heard them suggest a need for proportional representation.
They're going to be around for five years, it'll be less painful if we engage with them on the issues rather than the battles of the past. | |
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| Reform on 15:04 - Jul 5 with 2787 views | Help |
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[Post edited 5 Jul 2024 15:04]
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| Reform on 15:06 - Jul 5 with 2736 views | J2BLUE |
We haven't had a referendum on PR |  |
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| Reform on 15:12 - Jul 5 with 2686 views | Blueschev |
I despise Reform Ltd. and everything they stand for, but it doesn't change the fact that FPTP is grossly undemocratic. 4 seats after receiving over 4 millions votes is not fair, regardless of the fact that those votes were cast for a truly disgusting party. |  | | |
| Reform on 15:13 - Jul 5 with 2663 views | JimmyJazz |
| Reform on 15:06 - Jul 5 by J2BLUE |
We haven't had a referendum on PR |
And surely we'd be voting to stay at Portman Road anyway |  |
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| Reform on 15:15 - Jul 5 with 2633 views | Blueschev |
| Reform on 15:13 - Jul 5 by JimmyJazz |
And surely we'd be voting to stay at Portman Road anyway |
If there was a referendum on that it would be another vote leave campaign run by odious fools. | | | |
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| Reform on 15:22 - Jul 5 with 2550 views | JimmyJazz |
So how would proportional representation work? Each constituency votes for an MP, are they still given seats but additional MPs also granted seats to reflect the overall voting percentages? Who decides these additional MPs (most votes received?) and do they represent a constituency or just their party in general?
It seems a bit like some third best teams still qualify for the knockouts [Post edited 5 Jul 2024 15:23]
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| Reform on 15:31 - Jul 5 with 2490 views | Guthrum |
| Reform on 15:06 - Jul 5 by J2BLUE |
We haven't had a referendum on PR |
Indeed. AV is not PR. |  |
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| Reform on 15:36 - Jul 5 with 2461 views | Guthrum |
| Reform on 15:22 - Jul 5 by JimmyJazz |
So how would proportional representation work? Each constituency votes for an MP, are they still given seats but additional MPs also granted seats to reflect the overall voting percentages? Who decides these additional MPs (most votes received?) and do they represent a constituency or just their party in general?
It seems a bit like some third best teams still qualify for the knockouts [Post edited 5 Jul 2024 15:23]
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It's the way things are done in Germany and with the devolved Scottish Parliament. Each constituency elects an MP, then that is topped up by a number from party lists elected by national PR.
Another option would be to have larger constituencies, each electing, say, four MPs on a proportional system.
Both of those have the advantage of maintaining the link between MP and the areas they're representing, while ensuring that all votes count for something and rewarding smaller parties for achieving a reasonable proportion of the vote nationally. | |
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| Reform on 15:37 - Jul 5 with 2448 views | Keno |
| Reform on 14:52 - Jul 5 by NeedhamChris |
I can help you out, you don't understand your subject matter. That's on you not Reform.
There has been no referendum on proportional representation in this country, only a cobbled together alternative. |
"There has been no referendum on proportional representation in this country"
yes there has |  |
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| Reform on 15:51 - Jul 5 with 2365 views | NeedhamChris |
| Reform on 15:37 - Jul 5 by Keno |
"There has been no referendum on proportional representation in this country"
yes there has |
No there hasn't.
If you're referring to AV+, I'd agree with the electoral reform societies assessment that with "80% to 85% of seats elected via the Alternative Vote, there aren't enough top-up seats to make it proportional". | |
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| Reform on 15:53 - Jul 5 with 2342 views | Keno |
| Reform on 15:51 - Jul 5 by NeedhamChris |
No there hasn't.
If you're referring to AV+, I'd agree with the electoral reform societies assessment that with "80% to 85% of seats elected via the Alternative Vote, there aren't enough top-up seats to make it proportional". |
AV is widely recognised to be a form of PR | |
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| Reform on 15:54 - Jul 5 with 2331 views | NeedhamChris |
| Reform on 15:53 - Jul 5 by Keno |
AV is widely recognised to be a form of PR |
Widely recognised by people with expertise in the subject? Or widely recognised by people on the internet with none? | |
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| Reform on 15:55 - Jul 5 with 2295 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Reform on 15:22 - Jul 5 by JimmyJazz |
So how would proportional representation work? Each constituency votes for an MP, are they still given seats but additional MPs also granted seats to reflect the overall voting percentages? Who decides these additional MPs (most votes received?) and do they represent a constituency or just their party in general?
It seems a bit like some third best teams still qualify for the knockouts [Post edited 5 Jul 2024 15:23]
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There are multiple ways PR can work, and many countries have tailored it in slightly different ways. However, the main ways are:
Pure PR - a single national constituency where seats are awarded based on national vote share, usually with a threshold to win seats - this is used in countries like the Netherlands and Israel.
Constituency PR - the country is broken down into constituencies whose members are elected based on the proportion of votes received in their constituency. This is probably the most common form.
Constituency PR + Levelling seats. Several countries use constituency PR but have levelling/top-up seats to ensure parties receive a number of seats equivalent to their national vote share (to make up for the fact that small constituencies have a relatively high threshold to win a seat, meaning the constituency results might not be completely proportional).
Parallel voting - voters cast two votes - one for a single member constituency MP (usually elected by FPTP) and one for a party in a multi-member constituency. In some cases the seat distribution in the multi-member constituencies is determined by the vote for those constituencies. In others, the multi-member constituencies are effectively used as levelling seats and seats are awarded taking into account the single-member constituency results (this system is used in Scotland).
PR is also done on an open or closed list basis. For closed lists systems, parties present a list of candidates in the order they want them elected (this is how our EU elections worked). In open list, voters themselves can vote for individual candidates on party's list and determine the order in which they are eligible for the seats won by the party. |  | | |
| Reform on 16:00 - Jul 5 with 2236 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Reform on 15:53 - Jul 5 by Keno |
AV is widely recognised to be a form of PR |
It isn't - it's instant run-off voting and equivalent to the two-round system used in France. It does not produce proportional outcomes.
You might be confusing it with STV (the Irish system), which produces roughly proportional outcomes (but is also not a form of PR) | | | |
| Reform on 16:03 - Jul 5 with 2205 views | NeedhamChris |
| Reform on 16:00 - Jul 5 by Clapham_Junction |
It isn't - it's instant run-off voting and equivalent to the two-round system used in France. It does not produce proportional outcomes.
You might be confusing it with STV (the Irish system), which produces roughly proportional outcomes (but is also not a form of PR) |
Page 14 of this has a more detailed explanation of why that is..
Edit: can't get the link to work - so Google "constitutional society alternative vote proportional representation" and you'll find it.
So in short, we still haven't had a referendum on proportional representation. [Post edited 5 Jul 2024 16:08]
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| Reform on 16:07 - Jul 5 with 2152 views | J2BLUE |
| Reform on 15:53 - Jul 5 by Keno |
AV is widely recognised to be a form of PR |
Are you ok?
You know what people mean. | |
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| Reform on 16:14 - Jul 5 with 2091 views | GeoffSentence |
| Reform on 15:53 - Jul 5 by Keno |
AV is widely recognised to be a form of PR |
It's widely recognised as not being a form of PR
https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/voting-systems/types-of-voting-system/altern
"What is the Alternative Vote?
The Alternative Vote is not a form of proportional representation.
In certain conditions, such as the 2015 General Election, it would have produced a less proportional result than Westminster’s First Past the Post system. " |  |
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| Reform on 16:15 - Jul 5 with 2087 views | NeedhamChris |
| Reform on 16:07 - Jul 5 by J2BLUE |
Are you ok?
You know what people mean. |
It does show the lack of understanding about electoral systems - will need to be some education as part of any campaign for it | |
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| Reform on 19:12 - Jul 5 with 1854 views | NeedhamChris |
Fairly usual thread journey here.
Sweeping factually incorrect statement, evidence provided, the double down, then more evidence and other people's input, then nothing... | |
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| Reform on 19:45 - Jul 5 with 1753 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Reform on 15:53 - Jul 5 by Keno |
AV is widely recognised to be a form of PR |
Even Nick Clegg called it a grubby little compromise. |  |
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| Reform on 19:47 - Jul 5 with 1739 views | lowhouseblue |
| Reform on 19:45 - Jul 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Even Nick Clegg called it a grubby little compromise. |
i think you mistyped 'Everyone called Nick Clegg a grubby little compromise.'? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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