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Just seen that we are about to probably agree to their return or some sort of deal.
Fair enough. Ive seen them a few times and frankly they aren't worth the hassle. But I have to say that rather than be totally dismissive of them, I did reflect that they were done 500BC and isn't it amazing that human beings had the skill and tools to shape marble like that 2.5 thousand years ago. We must have been capable of quite amazing cultural things as well as being pretty brutal at the same time.
But im fairly ambivalent to their return. Be nice to fill the rooms with something to look at, but honestly they could create replicas and no one would really mind.
A lot of blame has to fall on 19th century historians for the conceit that ancient people were primitive savages who slowly built in knowlege and skill to the civilized peak of Europe in the Victorian era. Which is how it got taught in school for the following century or so.
Intellectually, the ancients were no less advanced than ourselves. Technologically, maybe. But that had a lot to do with demand and necessity. If you don't need to rapidly haul hundreds of tons of goods many miles on a daily basis, there is no requirement to develop railways, for example. So they didn't. But ideas and theories of steam power and hydraulics were explored, tho only used for toys and gimmicks.
A lot of blame has to fall on 19th century historians for the conceit that ancient people were primitive savages who slowly built in knowlege and skill to the civilized peak of Europe in the Victorian era. Which is how it got taught in school for the following century or so.
Intellectually, the ancients were no less advanced than ourselves. Technologically, maybe. But that had a lot to do with demand and necessity. If you don't need to rapidly haul hundreds of tons of goods many miles on a daily basis, there is no requirement to develop railways, for example. So they didn't. But ideas and theories of steam power and hydraulics were explored, tho only used for toys and gimmicks.
The other thing I think about is why humans felt the need to keep going North of the Mediterranean. I mean you have the sea, all year round good weather. If you were alive 2500 years ago I wouldn't be thinking lets push onto Norway.
The other thing I think about is why humans felt the need to keep going North of the Mediterranean. I mean you have the sea, all year round good weather. If you were alive 2500 years ago I wouldn't be thinking lets push onto Norway.
Vast plains and forests full of game, rivers teeming with fish, material resources of all kinds, plenty of space to live in. Or you could subsist with everyone else on the narrow strip between the mountains and the sea.
The really interesting area seems to have been that region north of the Black and Caspian Seas, where the Yamnaya culture grew up before spreading over much of Europe. Talking about 5,000 years ago.
A lot of blame has to fall on 19th century historians for the conceit that ancient people were primitive savages who slowly built in knowlege and skill to the civilized peak of Europe in the Victorian era. Which is how it got taught in school for the following century or so.
Intellectually, the ancients were no less advanced than ourselves. Technologically, maybe. But that had a lot to do with demand and necessity. If you don't need to rapidly haul hundreds of tons of goods many miles on a daily basis, there is no requirement to develop railways, for example. So they didn't. But ideas and theories of steam power and hydraulics were explored, tho only used for toys and gimmicks.
All that was lacking was the technology, over two thousand years ago Eratosthenes made a decent stab of calculating the distance from Earth to the Sun for example:
Vast plains and forests full of game, rivers teeming with fish, material resources of all kinds, plenty of space to live in. Or you could subsist with everyone else on the narrow strip between the mountains and the sea.
The really interesting area seems to have been that region north of the Black and Caspian Seas, where the Yamnaya culture grew up before spreading over much of Europe. Talking about 5,000 years ago.
Hey Plato, stop sun bathing, eating those olives, drinking wine and staring at those statues and get up to Scandinavia and build your log cabin. No Ikea yet but free wood.
Yamnaya - a nomadic culture. Can you imagine that. even worse. wandering around and living in presumably tents.
The other thing I think about is why humans felt the need to keep going North of the Mediterranean. I mean you have the sea, all year round good weather. If you were alive 2500 years ago I wouldn't be thinking lets push onto Norway.
We'd been in those areas for a long time - way longer than 2,500 years.
The climate in certain areas shifted around quite a bit (before any says anything, no, that does not mean climate change is not human driven right now).
A good example is that there was a massive land mass (Doggerland) between us and the Netherlands.
Hey Plato, stop sun bathing, eating those olives, drinking wine and staring at those statues and get up to Scandinavia and build your log cabin. No Ikea yet but free wood.
Yamnaya - a nomadic culture. Can you imagine that. even worse. wandering around and living in presumably tents.
Probably seasonally moving between summer and winter pasture for their herds. They had covered wagons likely pulled by animals. And the tents used by nomadic cultures (e.g. Yurts) are rather more substantial and comfortable than a festy pop-up. Not to mention better constructed and less leaky than many modern housing estates.
We'd been in those areas for a long time - way longer than 2,500 years.
The climate in certain areas shifted around quite a bit (before any says anything, no, that does not mean climate change is not human driven right now).
A good example is that there was a massive land mass (Doggerland) between us and the Netherlands.
Yes I wasn't being historiclaly accurate in the human migration story.
I just think about how hard life probably was and why make it any harder for yourself as a general premise.
Even now when I go to the med and sit my the sea I think about that sort of stuff. I could sit by a rocky beach looking at the med and feel content.
The ice age only ended about 20,000 years ago I think. Which is amazing really, such a short space of time. There is an argument of course that the earth is and never has been persistent. But adding human activity into the equation doesn't help. And I assume the earth has not been warmer than it is now? Or has it?
Yes I wasn't being historiclaly accurate in the human migration story.
I just think about how hard life probably was and why make it any harder for yourself as a general premise.
Even now when I go to the med and sit my the sea I think about that sort of stuff. I could sit by a rocky beach looking at the med and feel content.
The ice age only ended about 20,000 years ago I think. Which is amazing really, such a short space of time. There is an argument of course that the earth is and never has been persistent. But adding human activity into the equation doesn't help. And I assume the earth has not been warmer than it is now? Or has it?
Way off the Elgin Marbles now.
[Post edited 3 Dec 2024 12:18]
It's a difference of perspective. What may be an idyllic spot, without too much industry and agriculture, for modern Employed Man to relax from his labours would be a potential nightmare for his ancient ancestor needing abundant year-round resources on the spot just to survive.
We'd been in those areas for a long time - way longer than 2,500 years.
The climate in certain areas shifted around quite a bit (before any says anything, no, that does not mean climate change is not human driven right now).
A good example is that there was a massive land mass (Doggerland) between us and the Netherlands.
As this land mass you mention is now underwater.... I'm assuming all the doggers drowned
Yes I wasn't being historiclaly accurate in the human migration story.
I just think about how hard life probably was and why make it any harder for yourself as a general premise.
Even now when I go to the med and sit my the sea I think about that sort of stuff. I could sit by a rocky beach looking at the med and feel content.
The ice age only ended about 20,000 years ago I think. Which is amazing really, such a short space of time. There is an argument of course that the earth is and never has been persistent. But adding human activity into the equation doesn't help. And I assume the earth has not been warmer than it is now? Or has it?
Way off the Elgin Marbles now.
[Post edited 3 Dec 2024 12:18]
It's been warmer in its history but in the last few thousand years? No. I imagine we're talking tens of thousands of years before we start seeing the warmth we see now. Anyway...
People moved about for all sorts of reasons. Pre-agriculture, we'd have been following migratory herds, for instance. Or maybe there were just too many people in one area, so they were forced to move on to find resources.
Really interesting video on this sort of thing around the "Green Sahara"
But yes, drifting way off the Elgin marbles topic. Interesting though!
I've just seen a tweet saying that is Starmer gives back the Elgin Marbles then he'll be guaranteed to lose the next election.
Which is absolutely wild take.
I don't have any problem in giving them back. They're culturally significant but the British Museum will have plenty of other items of a similar age/quality/interest level that they can wheel out without causing a diplomatic incident every few years.
The other thing I think about is why humans felt the need to keep going North of the Mediterranean. I mean you have the sea, all year round good weather. If you were alive 2500 years ago I wouldn't be thinking lets push onto Norway.
I did ask exactly this question to an Anthropologist
He cited various possible reasons why the population spread out..... overcrowding, conflict and the possibility of starting a new life with different laws.
He postulated that a group of the oucasts, marginals and other slightly unwanted would rally behind a charismatic leader and strike out to form a new tribe with it's own mores and habits and yes, you might have swapped the red wine and olives of the sun-dappled Mediterranean coast for whale blubber and frozen seal meat of the frozen Arctic... but you were free... free people in a new land....and have all the fun of shaping your new society
All that was lacking was the technology, over two thousand years ago Eratosthenes made a decent stab of calculating the distance from Earth to the Sun for example:
Right. Issac Newton (As well as Noel Gallagher and the £2 coin) stated that we are "Standing on the shoulders of giants", very prophetic words. My brother is a motor mechanic and if he wanted to he could build a much better car than the Patent-Motorwagen from scratch. That by no means puts him the same league as Carl Benz though.
I did ask exactly this question to an Anthropologist
He cited various possible reasons why the population spread out..... overcrowding, conflict and the possibility of starting a new life with different laws.
He postulated that a group of the oucasts, marginals and other slightly unwanted would rally behind a charismatic leader and strike out to form a new tribe with it's own mores and habits and yes, you might have swapped the red wine and olives of the sun-dappled Mediterranean coast for whale blubber and frozen seal meat of the frozen Arctic... but you were free... free people in a new land....and have all the fun of shaping your new society
[Post edited 3 Dec 2024 15:46]
And just in case Leitrim joins this thread, I can already provide the anthropological explanations based on my copious 1970s student research at the Odeon Lloyds Avenue and the ABC on the Buttermarket:
We'd been in those areas for a long time - way longer than 2,500 years.
The climate in certain areas shifted around quite a bit (before any says anything, no, that does not mean climate change is not human driven right now).
A good example is that there was a massive land mass (Doggerland) between us and the Netherlands.
That's the excuse I always use when I get caught on the beach with my trousers down - "Just trying to get home, Occifer."
Once,I was happy to keep the Elgin Marble on display in the B.M. But since visiting the museum in Athens I did a u-turn on it. It only seems right to me to return them as one of the original arguments about the environment being poor quality is no longer valid. Re-uniting them with all the other Parthenon items is the way to go for me.
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