| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful 11:06 - Feb 13 with 2865 views | Kievthegreat |
The proscribing of Palestine Action has been ruled "Unlawful" and the High Court have recommended it be quashed:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/liv
Commentary from Lawyer David Allen Green (it's a whole thread):
ttps://bsky.app/profile/davidallengreen.bsky.social/post/3meqbdd3ims2e [Post edited 14 Feb 11:09]
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| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 11:09 - Feb 13 with 1601 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
Good news (not justifying the actions on the military base) - and embarrassing for this authoritarian government. |  | | |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 11:11 - Feb 13 with 1594 views | Blueschev |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 11:09 - Feb 13 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Good news (not justifying the actions on the military base) - and embarrassing for this authoritarian government. |
I see they plan to waste more tax payers money launching an appeal they are certain to lose. |  | | |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 11:15 - Feb 13 with 1579 views | StokieBlue |
A few on here were all for arresting pensioners holding up signs in support.
SB [Post edited 13 Feb 11:18]
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| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 11:24 - Feb 13 with 1511 views | BlueBadger |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 11:15 - Feb 13 by StokieBlue |
A few on here were all for arresting pensioners holding up signs in support.
SB [Post edited 13 Feb 11:18]
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The 'nobody should go to prison for hurty words' crowd were all for people going to prison for saying 'I really don't think supporting war crimes is very nice'. [Post edited 13 Feb 15:27]
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| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 11:46 - Feb 13 with 1423 views | Swansea_Blue |
Quite right. The arrests of peaceful protesters following the proscription was an embarrassment. It’s stupid negative PR for the government too - you’d struggle to deliberately create worse optics than the pictures of grannies and vicars being carted off by the police. No surprise that Mahmoud is disappointed. She seems to revel in being vile.
The criminal activities of PA should always have been prosecuted through the relevant existing laws. And people certainly shouldn’t have been held for over a year without being charged. |  |
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| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 12:19 - Feb 13 with 1346 views | DJR |
Leaving aside the merits of the ban, this reflects badly on Starmer's judgment.
As an experienced human rights lawyer, he shouldn't have gone anywhere near a ban if there was any chance of the High Court overturning it.
Of course, the government is often successfully challenged in court (and sometimes wins on appeal) but rarely on such a controversial measure.
And with the ban continuing until the appeal is held, we have the ludicrous situation of charges still hanging over several thousand people because they expressed support for an organisation that no longer exists. [Post edited 13 Feb 12:22]
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| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 12:43 - Feb 13 with 1291 views | keighleyblue |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 11:09 - Feb 13 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Good news (not justifying the actions on the military base) - and embarrassing for this authoritarian government. |
"authoritarian"  |  | | |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 12:45 - Feb 13 with 1286 views | Blueschev |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 12:19 - Feb 13 by DJR |
Leaving aside the merits of the ban, this reflects badly on Starmer's judgment.
As an experienced human rights lawyer, he shouldn't have gone anywhere near a ban if there was any chance of the High Court overturning it.
Of course, the government is often successfully challenged in court (and sometimes wins on appeal) but rarely on such a controversial measure.
And with the ban continuing until the appeal is held, we have the ludicrous situation of charges still hanging over several thousand people because they expressed support for an organisation that no longer exists. [Post edited 13 Feb 12:22]
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It's another self inflicted shambles. I'm not sure the defence of "at least they're not as bad as the last lot" will even stand up for much longer. | | | |
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| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 12:53 - Feb 13 with 1258 views | DJR |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 12:19 - Feb 13 by DJR |
Leaving aside the merits of the ban, this reflects badly on Starmer's judgment.
As an experienced human rights lawyer, he shouldn't have gone anywhere near a ban if there was any chance of the High Court overturning it.
Of course, the government is often successfully challenged in court (and sometimes wins on appeal) but rarely on such a controversial measure.
And with the ban continuing until the appeal is held, we have the ludicrous situation of charges still hanging over several thousand people because they expressed support for an organisation that no longer exists. [Post edited 13 Feb 12:22]
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The situation from now until the appeal is heard is just as ludicrous (or Kafkaesque).
"The Metropolitan police has released a statement after the high court’s ruling this morning, warning that the proscription remains in place and so showing support for Palestine Action is still a criminal offence.
The Met acknowledged that the “unusual circumstances” may cause some confusion among the public as to what happens next, it said that officers will “continue to identify offences where support for Palestine Action is being expressed, but they will focus on gathering evidence of those offences and the people involved to provide opportunities for enforcement at a later date, rather than making arrests at the time”.
It added: “This is the most proportionate approach we can take, acknowledging the decision reached by the court while recognising that proceedings are not yet fully concluded."
This isn't how the rule of law is meant to work.
Indeed, if the government were interested in the rule of law, rather than saving its skin, it should just accept the High Court decision.
And who's to know if it will even succeed on appeal? [Post edited 13 Feb 12:53]
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| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 12:56 - Feb 13 with 1234 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 12:43 - Feb 13 by keighleyblue |
"authoritarian" |
Classifying protesters as terrorists absolutely is authoritarian- and proven so by the courts of law. In my opinion their attempt to introduce mandatory ID is also an overstep, but that’s another conversation. | | | |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 12:57 - Feb 13 with 1232 views | Blueschev |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 12:53 - Feb 13 by DJR |
The situation from now until the appeal is heard is just as ludicrous (or Kafkaesque).
"The Metropolitan police has released a statement after the high court’s ruling this morning, warning that the proscription remains in place and so showing support for Palestine Action is still a criminal offence.
The Met acknowledged that the “unusual circumstances” may cause some confusion among the public as to what happens next, it said that officers will “continue to identify offences where support for Palestine Action is being expressed, but they will focus on gathering evidence of those offences and the people involved to provide opportunities for enforcement at a later date, rather than making arrests at the time”.
It added: “This is the most proportionate approach we can take, acknowledging the decision reached by the court while recognising that proceedings are not yet fully concluded."
This isn't how the rule of law is meant to work.
Indeed, if the government were interested in the rule of law, rather than saving its skin, it should just accept the High Court decision.
And who's to know if it will even succeed on appeal? [Post edited 13 Feb 12:53]
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That almost sounds like satire. Are the police going to take photos of people in case it transpires in the future they've committed a crime? You'd know much better than me, would that stand up in court? | | | |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:07 - Feb 13 with 1203 views | chantryblueboy |
Genuine question
MPs specifically voted for Palestine Action to be proscribed - I thought Parliament was sovereign in this country, and the courts existed to ensure that they acted within the legislation they vote through. So how do the courts have the power to overturn the MPs vote? Because it doesn’t meet the standards of the terrorism act? | | | |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:17 - Feb 13 with 1172 views | DanTheMan |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:07 - Feb 13 by chantryblueboy |
Genuine question
MPs specifically voted for Palestine Action to be proscribed - I thought Parliament was sovereign in this country, and the courts existed to ensure that they acted within the legislation they vote through. So how do the courts have the power to overturn the MPs vote? Because it doesn’t meet the standards of the terrorism act? |
Because Parliament and Governments still has to follow the law.
Otherwise they could vote to have the opposition arrested and there would be nothing to stop them. Or do any number of insane things.
So yes, as your last line puts it, they said this group is a terrorist group according to some legislation that was already passed but the judges are saying they don't meet the bar in that legislation. [Post edited 13 Feb 13:24]
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| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:21 - Feb 13 with 1150 views | DJR |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 12:57 - Feb 13 by Blueschev |
That almost sounds like satire. Are the police going to take photos of people in case it transpires in the future they've committed a crime? You'd know much better than me, would that stand up in court? |
I am not a criminal law expert so can't really answer that, but if they are not going to arrest them (and thus get their names), I imagine it might be difficult to track them all down. | | | |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:23 - Feb 13 with 1143 views | NthQldITFC |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 12:56 - Feb 13 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Classifying protesters as terrorists absolutely is authoritarian- and proven so by the courts of law. In my opinion their attempt to introduce mandatory ID is also an overstep, but that’s another conversation. |
Absolutely is on the first point. I'd differ with you on the second, because I think the ID cards could be a very sensible, neutral (in itself) and useful tool for 99% of people - but I understand the concerns about potential misuse by current or future governments, so there would have to be absolutely cast iron, untouchable limits on how and when they could be demanded or be effectively obligatory to use.
edit: sorry for sort of ignoring your very sensible 'another conversation' point. [Post edited 13 Feb 13:25]
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| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:25 - Feb 13 with 1122 views | chantryblueboy |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:17 - Feb 13 by DanTheMan |
Because Parliament and Governments still has to follow the law.
Otherwise they could vote to have the opposition arrested and there would be nothing to stop them. Or do any number of insane things.
So yes, as your last line puts it, they said this group is a terrorist group according to some legislation that was already passed but the judges are saying they don't meet the bar in that legislation. [Post edited 13 Feb 13:24]
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Cheers
Why have the vote then? Why is it not a court decision to proscribe a group? | | | |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:31 - Feb 13 with 1100 views | Blueschev |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:23 - Feb 13 by NthQldITFC |
Absolutely is on the first point. I'd differ with you on the second, because I think the ID cards could be a very sensible, neutral (in itself) and useful tool for 99% of people - but I understand the concerns about potential misuse by current or future governments, so there would have to be absolutely cast iron, untouchable limits on how and when they could be demanded or be effectively obligatory to use.
edit: sorry for sort of ignoring your very sensible 'another conversation' point. [Post edited 13 Feb 13:25]
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This government have already been proven to have misused terrorism legislation in order to quash dissent, so I absolutely wouldn't trust them to introduce ID cards. | | | |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:34 - Feb 13 with 1078 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:31 - Feb 13 by Blueschev |
This government have already been proven to have misused terrorism legislation in order to quash dissent, so I absolutely wouldn't trust them to introduce ID cards. |
PA are only a little bit terrorist apparently.
But Judge Victoria Sharp, reading out a summary of the judgement in court, said only "a very small number" of Palestine Action's activities "amounted to acts of terrorism". |  |
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| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:36 - Feb 13 with 1075 views | DanTheMan |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:25 - Feb 13 by chantryblueboy |
Cheers
Why have the vote then? Why is it not a court decision to proscribe a group? |
Because the legislation isn't written that way, simply put.
The Home Secretary is the one who picks what groups should be designated this way. They put it before Parliament who vote on it. Obviously you don't want this sort of power being wielded by one person, hence the vote. That should have been the time for MPs to say that this group didn't meet the standard required but it's obviously a very controversial area here. | |
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| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:37 - Feb 13 with 1071 views | DJR |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:07 - Feb 13 by chantryblueboy |
Genuine question
MPs specifically voted for Palestine Action to be proscribed - I thought Parliament was sovereign in this country, and the courts existed to ensure that they acted within the legislation they vote through. So how do the courts have the power to overturn the MPs vote? Because it doesn’t meet the standards of the terrorism act? |
The claimant succeeded on two grounds one of which was this. I won't bore you with the other.
There was a discretionary power to ban Palestine Action if the Home Secretary considered the group met the statutory test for being a terrorist organisation.
However, because of the wideness of the definition of terrorism, there was a policy in force which governed when the discretion could be exercised, and the court found that she didn't act in accordance with her own policy.
I may be wrong but I think that it will be difficult to successfully challenge that ground on appeal. [Post edited 13 Feb 13:43]
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| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:38 - Feb 13 with 1059 views | chantryblueboy |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:36 - Feb 13 by DanTheMan |
Because the legislation isn't written that way, simply put.
The Home Secretary is the one who picks what groups should be designated this way. They put it before Parliament who vote on it. Obviously you don't want this sort of power being wielded by one person, hence the vote. That should have been the time for MPs to say that this group didn't meet the standard required but it's obviously a very controversial area here. |
That seems silly
Would make more sense to effectively have a criminal trial at the Home Sec’s request but for the group as a whole
Thanks! | | | |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:39 - Feb 13 with 1060 views | Guthrum |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:25 - Feb 13 by chantryblueboy |
Cheers
Why have the vote then? Why is it not a court decision to proscribe a group? |
A difference of opinion. The Government thought it fell within the parameters of the 2000 Act. The protesters felt that it did not sufficiently do so and that it went counter to other pieces of legislation on freedom of speech and the right to peaceful protest.
The judges, as the officially constituted independent experts on application of the law, have sided with the latter. |  |
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| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:42 - Feb 13 with 1030 views | chantryblueboy |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:39 - Feb 13 by Guthrum |
A difference of opinion. The Government thought it fell within the parameters of the 2000 Act. The protesters felt that it did not sufficiently do so and that it went counter to other pieces of legislation on freedom of speech and the right to peaceful protest.
The judges, as the officially constituted independent experts on application of the law, have sided with the latter. |
I more mean why does Parliament have to vote on it if the court is the one that ultimately decides anyway | | | |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:47 - Feb 13 with 989 views | NthQldITFC |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:34 - Feb 13 by GlasgowBlue |
PA are only a little bit terrorist apparently.
But Judge Victoria Sharp, reading out a summary of the judgement in court, said only "a very small number" of Palestine Action's activities "amounted to acts of terrorism". |
I wonder which activities they are? It's such a misused word these days anyway.
The American Heritage Dictionary has this:
1. The use of violence or the threat of violence, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political goals.
2. The act of terrorizing, or state of being terrorized; a mode of government by terror or intimidation.
3. The practise of coercing governments to accede to political demands by committing violence on civilian targets; any similar use of violence to achieve goals.
Any number of Western or affiliated governments (as well others of course) are demonstrably and recently much 'better' at 1. and 2. than Palestine Action, whether overall or per capita.
On 3., I'm not sure what percentage of PA targets have been civilian - or non-'terrorist'-nation-sponsored corporate civilians anyhow - but there may be a semblance of a point there. | |
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| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:48 - Feb 13 with 982 views | DJR |
| Palestine Action win Judicial Review. Proscribing Ruled Unlawful on 13:42 - Feb 13 by chantryblueboy |
I more mean why does Parliament have to vote on it if the court is the one that ultimately decides anyway |
There has to be legislation (in this case secondary legislation) in place to ban a terrorist organisation, and that has to be passed by Parliament.
It is then up to people to challenge it in court if there are grounds to do so.
But the vast majority of legislation is never challengeable because it is not in the government's interest to bring forth challengeable legislation.
But secondary legislation does open up the scope for challenge more than Acts of Parliament. [Post edited 13 Feb 13:49]
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