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All those Labour types banging on and on about a second referendum. If only Corbyn had been allowed to go with his 7 out of 10 gut!! Each and every time Labour supporters shouted "yeah but you're all thick, Referendum2"....drip...drip...drip!
"Healey pointed to the fact that Labour lost 87 seats to the Conservatives in the 2010 election, and eight more in 2015. Of these, 83 areas went on to support Brexit in the 2016 referendum. Brexit was, he said, “both an effect of this dislocation and a cause of further disillusion”
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 08:49 - Apr 19 by Herbivore
The red wall crumbled under Corbyn, mate.
But you supported JC wholeheartedly, imagine if you and those like you had not, perhaps Labour would have outed him and the country would not have to endure this tory shower.
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What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 09:06 - Apr 19 with 2012 views
What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 08:55 - Apr 19 by GaryCooper
But you supported JC wholeheartedly, imagine if you and those like you had not, perhaps Labour would have outed him and the country would not have to endure this tory shower.
Actually, Gary, that's not the case. I voted Labour under Corbyn but did not wholeheartedly support Corbyn. If you go back and read my posts in the lead up to the GE in 2019 you'll see my support of Corbyn was rather lukewarm at best. In fact I was often critical of him and his 'leadership'.
Here, for example, I say in the September before the election that I would "hold my nose and vote Labour" on the basis that they were the only party who could oust the Tory incumbent in my constituency:
It might benefit you to acquaint yourself with the facts from time to time. I know you see facts as being lefty nonsense that we shouldn't have to put up with, but they are rather useful to stop oneself looking foolish sometimes.
What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 09:06 - Apr 19 by BanksterDebtSlave
They needed to back a no quibble Brexit stance after the referendum....the London Labour luvvies wouldn't allow it!
The majority of Labour voters were pro-remain. Had Labour wholeheartedly supported Brexit they'd have lost just as many seats in other areas and would still have lost most of the red wall because the voters in those areas disliked Corbyn.
What Labour really should have done was not given into Corbyn's hubris and agreed to a GE in 2019. The Tories had no majority and nowhere to go. Corbyn took his foot off their neck and enabled them to fight a GE campaign purely along the lines of Brexit where Labour were weak and the Tories were strong. He handed them an 80 seat majority on a plate like an absolute mug.
I think it had less to do with Brexit than the erosion of the whole raison d'etre of the "Red Wall".
Originally, it had been the heartland of Britain's industrial working class. Up to the 1960s (and especially between the Wars), there was a natural marriage between the unionised workforce and the union-backed Labour Party who were fighting for their rights.
Once the industry and mining had gone, after the 1980s, that link was much more tenuous. More based upon habit than a concrete connection. Especially when, in the following decade, the Labour government wasn't able to bring jobs and prosperity back to those areas. The Tories at least promised stuff. Added to that was the small-c conservatism of many northerners and a resentment of London and the South East.
Brexit was merely a trigger, the moment at which the already overstrained relationship broke. The process had been going on for decades.
What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 09:11 - Apr 19 by Herbivore
The majority of Labour voters were pro-remain. Had Labour wholeheartedly supported Brexit they'd have lost just as many seats in other areas and would still have lost most of the red wall because the voters in those areas disliked Corbyn.
What Labour really should have done was not given into Corbyn's hubris and agreed to a GE in 2019. The Tories had no majority and nowhere to go. Corbyn took his foot off their neck and enabled them to fight a GE campaign purely along the lines of Brexit where Labour were weak and the Tories were strong. He handed them an 80 seat majority on a plate like an absolute mug.
[Post edited 19 Apr 2021 9:11]
I disagree...come an election belief in 'social justice' would top trump Remain bitterness. The opposite, after being told how thick and working class you are, not so much! I don't disagree about Corbyn being slow politically but in 2019 I still think they would have lost the North.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
It was more the Labour Party were seen/are seen as unpatriotic metropolitan weirdos by most people IMVHO. But lol at Toryism, unless you mean the ability of that party to change form.
In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 09:32 - Apr 19 by chicoazul
It was more the Labour Party were seen/are seen as unpatriotic metropolitan weirdos by most people IMVHO. But lol at Toryism, unless you mean the ability of that party to change form.
Sorry I thought it was too early in the day to just call them w@nkers!
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 09:06 - Apr 19 by BanksterDebtSlave
They needed to back a no quibble Brexit stance after the referendum....the London Labour luvvies wouldn't allow it!
Maybe they just realised what a disaster Brexit would be for the country and, in particular, the poorest people in it, and were trying to do what they considered was right?
I thought you were all about actual policies designed to do good rather than populist nonsense based on chasing votes from the lowest common denominator?
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What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 09:53 - Apr 19 with 1857 views
What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 09:30 - Apr 19 by BanksterDebtSlave
I disagree...come an election belief in 'social justice' would top trump Remain bitterness. The opposite, after being told how thick and working class you are, not so much! I don't disagree about Corbyn being slow politically but in 2019 I still think they would have lost the North.
I don't think that's a very realistic viewpoint, aside from Corbyn losing the North regardless, I agree with you on that. He was electoral poison in much of the old Labour heartlands.
However, Labour's dithering over Brexit and attempts to not take up a position lost them remain voters as well as leave voters in 2019. In my old constituency, for example, Labour's vote dropped by around 3000 votes with the majority of those going to Lib Dem and the Green Party, both of whom were pro-remain. It went from being a 500 seat marginal to a comfortable Tory hold, and that was as much down to Labour losing remain voters as it was to Brexit voters turning out for the Tories.
What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 09:37 - Apr 19 by noggin
I still, to this day, don't understand why the British people wanted to leave the EU.
It’s because many of them are simple patriotic people who regard the EU as a corporate protectorate run opaquely and intended only for the benefit of bureaucrats and business people, and resent what they see as foreign interference in British affairs.
In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 09:24 - Apr 19 by Guthrum
I think it had less to do with Brexit than the erosion of the whole raison d'etre of the "Red Wall".
Originally, it had been the heartland of Britain's industrial working class. Up to the 1960s (and especially between the Wars), there was a natural marriage between the unionised workforce and the union-backed Labour Party who were fighting for their rights.
Once the industry and mining had gone, after the 1980s, that link was much more tenuous. More based upon habit than a concrete connection. Especially when, in the following decade, the Labour government wasn't able to bring jobs and prosperity back to those areas. The Tories at least promised stuff. Added to that was the small-c conservatism of many northerners and a resentment of London and the South East.
Brexit was merely a trigger, the moment at which the already overstrained relationship broke. The process had been going on for decades.
One of Thatcher's greatest successes, if you're a Tory, was to fragment/destroy the working classes in those traditional Labour heartlands. It's taken a while to play out fully, but it's worked. The Tories can now win over voters in those areas by playing on small 'c' conservative values whilst making empty promises about economic regeneration. The 80s feel far enough away now that voting Tory feels less of a betrayal, and Labour's failure when in power to really connect with and re-energise those communities has weakened any sense of loyalty to Labour.
What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 09:55 - Apr 19 by chicoazul
It’s because many of them are simple patriotic people who regard the EU as a corporate protectorate run opaquely and intended only for the benefit of bureaucrats and business people, and resent what they see as foreign interference in British affairs.
What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 09:53 - Apr 19 by Herbivore
I don't think that's a very realistic viewpoint, aside from Corbyn losing the North regardless, I agree with you on that. He was electoral poison in much of the old Labour heartlands.
However, Labour's dithering over Brexit and attempts to not take up a position lost them remain voters as well as leave voters in 2019. In my old constituency, for example, Labour's vote dropped by around 3000 votes with the majority of those going to Lib Dem and the Green Party, both of whom were pro-remain. It went from being a 500 seat marginal to a comfortable Tory hold, and that was as much down to Labour losing remain voters as it was to Brexit voters turning out for the Tories.
Think they suffered for bringing nuance to a gun fight on Brexit really - every other party was staunch one way or the other, but Labour couldn't do that for the reasons set out in this thread and managed to alienate some people on both sides of the divide.
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What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 09:58 - Apr 19 with 1826 views
What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 09:49 - Apr 19 by m14_blue
Maybe they just realised what a disaster Brexit would be for the country and, in particular, the poorest people in it, and were trying to do what they considered was right?
I thought you were all about actual policies designed to do good rather than populist nonsense based on chasing votes from the lowest common denominator?
He's a disaster socialist - quite happy for Brexit to happen and the UK to turn into a hard-right capitalist country in the belief that in the long-run it will end up with people turning against the Tories.
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What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:02 - Apr 19 with 1804 views
What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 09:58 - Apr 19 by JakeITFC
Think they suffered for bringing nuance to a gun fight on Brexit really - every other party was staunch one way or the other, but Labour couldn't do that for the reasons set out in this thread and managed to alienate some people on both sides of the divide.
They took too long to arrive at a position and then didn't articulate it in a way that the electorate could buy into. Given how weak they were on Brexit their best move would have been to work alongside others to try to bring some kind of resolution to Brexit once Johnson had lost his working majority, and then call a GE that could be fought on a GE platform. The Tories won in 2019 without even putting out a proper manifesto, ffs.
What we had was a proxy second referendum but one where the popular majority actually lost heavily because of FPTP. Labour and Corbyn weren't alone in dropping the ball in 2019, but they certainly did nothing to prevent the situation we now find ourselves in.
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