| Macron...a victory of sorts!! 07:33 - Apr 25 with 1584 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
"According to the exit polls by Franceinfo, an estimated 28.2 percent of the electorate did not cast their votes.
Some 6.35 percent of voters in the election meanwhile voted for neither candidate in blank ballots, while 2.25 percent spoiled their papers."
...which leaves Macron with 59% of the remaining 63%.
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| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 07:52 - Apr 25 with 1524 views | ElephantintheRoom |
Actually it was a crushing and totally predictable victoire. Only two presidential elections have ever been more clear cut - both against Le Pens.
All the waffle simply fails to understand what was on offer and the way the election works - or doesn’t work. The growth of Le Pen votes was in young people wanting ‘change for the better’. It would be interesting to see how a similar system would work in the UK. I suspect Farage would become President - largely backed by old people wanting a change for the better - but a very different interpretation of change. |  |
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| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 08:23 - Apr 25 with 1488 views | Guthrum |
| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 07:52 - Apr 25 by ElephantintheRoom |
Actually it was a crushing and totally predictable victoire. Only two presidential elections have ever been more clear cut - both against Le Pens.
All the waffle simply fails to understand what was on offer and the way the election works - or doesn’t work. The growth of Le Pen votes was in young people wanting ‘change for the better’. It would be interesting to see how a similar system would work in the UK. I suspect Farage would become President - largely backed by old people wanting a change for the better - but a very different interpretation of change. |
I wouldn't say it was totally predictable (looking from outside), but it was certainly by a very comfortable margin.
I do wonder if there is a ceiling for Le Pen's support, however much she tries to moderate the image. That there will always be a significant cohort who band together to keep her out if she reaches the second round.
This desire for "change" not only fuelled Trump and Orban's success, but also that of those running against incumbent populists in other places, such as Slovenia. The problem has been that "business as usual" did not deliver upon its promises - indeed, caused more problems, inequality and hardship - so people seek radical alternatives. |  |
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| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 08:25 - Apr 25 with 1483 views | Guthrum |
Such is always the way with democracy. Massive outright majorities of the total electorate are more often a cause for suspicion. | |
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| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 08:40 - Apr 25 with 1455 views | homer_123 |
| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 08:23 - Apr 25 by Guthrum |
I wouldn't say it was totally predictable (looking from outside), but it was certainly by a very comfortable margin.
I do wonder if there is a ceiling for Le Pen's support, however much she tries to moderate the image. That there will always be a significant cohort who band together to keep her out if she reaches the second round.
This desire for "change" not only fuelled Trump and Orban's success, but also that of those running against incumbent populists in other places, such as Slovenia. The problem has been that "business as usual" did not deliver upon its promises - indeed, caused more problems, inequality and hardship - so people seek radical alternatives. |
"...seek radical alternatives."
In the UK, in the absence of a credible third party (Lib Dems for example), sadly I think you are right. |  |
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| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 09:19 - Apr 25 with 1415 views | WeWereZombies |
| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 08:40 - Apr 25 by homer_123 |
"...seek radical alternatives."
In the UK, in the absence of a credible third party (Lib Dems for example), sadly I think you are right. |
Except that in Scotland there is, like it or not, a credible third party...and they have gained a near stranglehold on power - if you can call Holyrood a seat of power, that is. |  |
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| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 09:33 - Apr 25 with 1366 views | Darth_Koont |
| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 08:40 - Apr 25 by homer_123 |
"...seek radical alternatives."
In the UK, in the absence of a credible third party (Lib Dems for example), sadly I think you are right. |
What are the LibDems for anyway?
Having said that, as they, the Tories and Labour jockey for position around the centre-right, here comes just what we need ... Tony Blair and a new centre-right effort!
Utterly incredible how navel-gazing and self-interested our political and media class is that thinks its job is to sew up the soft right establishment and its power, influence and money. And of course that makes them ripe to be beaten by a populist right Brexit or whatever next monstrosity springs out of the Farage/Tory Right. [Post edited 25 Apr 2022 9:33]
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| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 09:59 - Apr 25 with 1316 views | Guthrum |
| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 09:33 - Apr 25 by Darth_Koont |
What are the LibDems for anyway?
Having said that, as they, the Tories and Labour jockey for position around the centre-right, here comes just what we need ... Tony Blair and a new centre-right effort!
Utterly incredible how navel-gazing and self-interested our political and media class is that thinks its job is to sew up the soft right establishment and its power, influence and money. And of course that makes them ripe to be beaten by a populist right Brexit or whatever next monstrosity springs out of the Farage/Tory Right. [Post edited 25 Apr 2022 9:33]
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Problem being that the British electorate is, broadly, centre-right, with a significant element further over than that. We haven't had a successful genuinely left-wing government since 1970 and left-leaning Labour have only held power for 17 years out of the 77 since the War.
Progressives have always had an issue with getting people to vote for them (which is why socialists used to rely on the mirage of revolution). It's too easy to portray their policies as "pie in the sky" or even harmful, when compared with wallet-centred initiatives like cutting tax and "more choice for consumers". If not enough people will vote for you, then you will never be in a position to govern.
Is it better to produce something dressed up as centrist and hope to slip a few progressive policies in, or to stick to one's guns and forever be in opposition? Tricky choice, on both moral and practical grounds. Shifting public opinion would be a hurculean task, requiring a major change in media and probably outside assistance (as the hardships of depression sandwiched by war helped Attlee in 1945). | |
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| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 10:18 - Apr 25 with 1272 views | Darth_Koont |
| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 09:59 - Apr 25 by Guthrum |
Problem being that the British electorate is, broadly, centre-right, with a significant element further over than that. We haven't had a successful genuinely left-wing government since 1970 and left-leaning Labour have only held power for 17 years out of the 77 since the War.
Progressives have always had an issue with getting people to vote for them (which is why socialists used to rely on the mirage of revolution). It's too easy to portray their policies as "pie in the sky" or even harmful, when compared with wallet-centred initiatives like cutting tax and "more choice for consumers". If not enough people will vote for you, then you will never be in a position to govern.
Is it better to produce something dressed up as centrist and hope to slip a few progressive policies in, or to stick to one's guns and forever be in opposition? Tricky choice, on both moral and practical grounds. Shifting public opinion would be a hurculean task, requiring a major change in media and probably outside assistance (as the hardships of depression sandwiched by war helped Attlee in 1945). |
It’s better to promote policies and alternatives that stop this slide right.
I don’t disagree with your interpretation but that’s what we’ve been doing for 40 years. And it’s no surprise that the divisions and inequalities the left do care about have been getting wider and wider.
The sub-par FPTP system has a lot to answer for as it turns party politics into a largely Red v. Blue power struggle. And actual policies (or certainly appealing to voters re: policies) become irrelevant.
There’s little hope of changing Westminster politics from within given the vested interests. But UKIP/Brexit Party and the SNP have shown you can change it from the outside. I think a proper green/red and younger party or lobbying group could achieve a fair bit to arrest this slide into oblivion. | |
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| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 10:34 - Apr 25 with 1231 views | Guthrum |
| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 10:18 - Apr 25 by Darth_Koont |
It’s better to promote policies and alternatives that stop this slide right.
I don’t disagree with your interpretation but that’s what we’ve been doing for 40 years. And it’s no surprise that the divisions and inequalities the left do care about have been getting wider and wider.
The sub-par FPTP system has a lot to answer for as it turns party politics into a largely Red v. Blue power struggle. And actual policies (or certainly appealing to voters re: policies) become irrelevant.
There’s little hope of changing Westminster politics from within given the vested interests. But UKIP/Brexit Party and the SNP have shown you can change it from the outside. I think a proper green/red and younger party or lobbying group could achieve a fair bit to arrest this slide into oblivion. |
Tribalism and the present electoral system are the chief factors holding back any change. Due to the extreme rarity of coalitions (indeed, the non-existence of equitable ones), progressive groupings cannot hope to insert their ideas into policy as part of an alliance. Only at best by infiltration, as Momentum tried with Labour (but were too out in the open).
UKIP/BP have shown it is possible to influence UK politics from the outside, but they did not themselves break through to provide an alternative. The SNP are a bit of a special case, as they have been able to play the regionalist/separatist card, unavailable to progressive groupings within England. They also have a ceiling in the number of Scottish seats compared with the HoC as a whole. They might play kingmaker, but will never govern the UK outright.
Pressure groups are probably the way forward. Breaking through with new parties is just too difficult the way things are currently. | |
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| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 16:04 - Apr 25 with 1053 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 09:19 - Apr 25 by WeWereZombies |
Except that in Scotland there is, like it or not, a credible third party...and they have gained a near stranglehold on power - if you can call Holyrood a seat of power, that is. |
The SNP govern Scotland by virtue of a power-sharing deal with the Greens- that's hardly a stranglehold on power.
The electoral system (a combination of First, Second and Third etc Past the Post Constuency MSPs and balancing List MPs) is designed to force coalition and co-operation, and rewards smaller parties in a way that the Westminster system does not.
And Holyrood was a sufficient seat of power to stop me crossing the border to see family in Emgland at various points over the last two years... | | | |
| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 17:04 - Apr 25 with 999 views | HARRY10 |
| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 16:04 - Apr 25 by ArnoldMoorhen |
The SNP govern Scotland by virtue of a power-sharing deal with the Greens- that's hardly a stranglehold on power.
The electoral system (a combination of First, Second and Third etc Past the Post Constuency MSPs and balancing List MPs) is designed to force coalition and co-operation, and rewards smaller parties in a way that the Westminster system does not.
And Holyrood was a sufficient seat of power to stop me crossing the border to see family in Emgland at various points over the last two years... |
Putting forward mumbo jumbo about voting systems serves only to distract from the real problem - voter ignorance ie not having a clue about what they are voting for.
Coalitions are an affront to democracy as the decision about who forms the government is taken by a handful of 'greybeards[' horse trading out of public scrutiny.
In 2017 you will notice the Tories put up some weird policiers. The intent being, they were policies that could be traded away if a coalition was needed. PR means local accountability is lost to a central office and you have to wait until AFTER the election to see who is foistered upon you. You vote for the party, not a particular candidate.
We have a PM who has, and is still, lying to the House. Why are his constituents not demanding better ? Why is there no recall ?
Until voters start to take responsibility, this is what we get.
Halfwits believing obvious lies because "master knows best"
And before the usual suspects start squeaking about how things are done in Europe, bear in mind those electoral systems were set up post war (by the allies) to ensure no extremist party could take control as before, rather than any venture towards democracy. | | | |
| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 17:45 - Apr 25 with 973 views | WeWereZombies |
| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 16:04 - Apr 25 by ArnoldMoorhen |
The SNP govern Scotland by virtue of a power-sharing deal with the Greens- that's hardly a stranglehold on power.
The electoral system (a combination of First, Second and Third etc Past the Post Constuency MSPs and balancing List MPs) is designed to force coalition and co-operation, and rewards smaller parties in a way that the Westminster system does not.
And Holyrood was a sufficient seat of power to stop me crossing the border to see family in Emgland at various points over the last two years... |
I will be surprised if anyone other than the SNP achieves a significant percentage of the vote at the local elections next month (and I say that as someone who will be putting a '1' next to the Labour candidate, then a '2', '3' and '4' against independents and the Liberal Democrat).
I know that in theory we could have be fined if we were caught travelling during lockdowns but I saw no evidence of police intervention on the few (legitimate) occasions that I did so.
It's been a few years since I was in the main reception at Holyrood and leafed through the table of statutes (or whatever it is called) but it seemed to me at the time to confer not much more power than a set of by-laws issued by a parish council. | |
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| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 17:57 - Apr 25 with 962 views | ElderGrizzly |
Well he is going to win a majority in the next set of elections too.
Too much winning as they say?
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| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 18:36 - Apr 25 with 926 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 16:04 - Apr 25 by ArnoldMoorhen |
The SNP govern Scotland by virtue of a power-sharing deal with the Greens- that's hardly a stranglehold on power.
The electoral system (a combination of First, Second and Third etc Past the Post Constuency MSPs and balancing List MPs) is designed to force coalition and co-operation, and rewards smaller parties in a way that the Westminster system does not.
And Holyrood was a sufficient seat of power to stop me crossing the border to see family in Emgland at various points over the last two years... |
It’s a pity that the SNP don’t campaign in England as I suspect they’d do quite well. The problem with what passes for democracy in the UK is that they hold just about every seat in The commons - but don’t even have a majority in the Scottish parliament where proportional representation gives a truer picture. | |
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| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 20:50 - Apr 25 with 814 views | tractordownsouth |
| Macron...a victory of sorts!! on 10:34 - Apr 25 by Guthrum |
Tribalism and the present electoral system are the chief factors holding back any change. Due to the extreme rarity of coalitions (indeed, the non-existence of equitable ones), progressive groupings cannot hope to insert their ideas into policy as part of an alliance. Only at best by infiltration, as Momentum tried with Labour (but were too out in the open).
UKIP/BP have shown it is possible to influence UK politics from the outside, but they did not themselves break through to provide an alternative. The SNP are a bit of a special case, as they have been able to play the regionalist/separatist card, unavailable to progressive groupings within England. They also have a ceiling in the number of Scottish seats compared with the HoC as a whole. They might play kingmaker, but will never govern the UK outright.
Pressure groups are probably the way forward. Breaking through with new parties is just too difficult the way things are currently. |
The SNP haven't actually achieved anything either, I can't think of any changes that have happened because of them - their greatest contribution has been Ian Blackford getting kicked out of parliament a few times and getting likes on Twitter. |  |
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