| Ministerial bullying 11:12 - Feb 28 with 2327 views | DJR |
As a retired member of the FDA, the union for senior civil servants, I thought people might be interested in the following passage in an email from the General Secretary yesterday which concerned a recent survey of members.
"One in six report that they had witnessed unacceptable workplace behaviour from a minister over the last 12 months alone, across more than 20 departments. 70% have no confidence in raising a complaint about a minister’s conduct, with that figure rising to 85% for those that had witnessed such conduct. Members described being humiliated, undermined, shouted and swore at, belittled and in cases fearful for the wellbeing of their staff. They felt hopeless as they knew there was little point in complaining. Critically, amongst those that had witnessed such behaviour, half said it meant they would be reluctant to give the frank advice to ministers that is expected of civil servants."
It was never like this prior to 2010, including under Mrs Thatcher, but I certainly noticed a change to a hostile atmosphere towards civil servants before I left the civil service the following year.
So not only are they incompetent, they are nasty with it both politically and personally. [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 11:45]
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| Ministerial bullying on 11:26 - Feb 28 with 1923 views | Hogger |
I know people well who would certainly confirm the veracity of this statement. They are also terrified of making complaints... all wrong this life under the Nasty Party. ... |  | | |
| Ministerial bullying on 12:26 - Feb 28 with 1852 views | homer_123 |
Sadly, 1 in 6 is actually quite low.
In the work we do with both private and public sectors, that figure is way higher, more like 1 in 3.
That said, remember that 'unacceptable workplace behaviour' is very much open to interpretation. We've seen many, many instances where people believe they have witnessed unacceptable behaviour and/ or experienced it but in actuality not the case at all. One example would be managers dealing with poor performance etc., handled that very well but the individual has taken umbrage or others have taken umbrage on their behalf.
That said, the above doesn't detract from an issue that is actually growing since remote/ hybrid working has come into play. A lot of issues stem from people being more comfortable typing, writing or saying something on a call that they would not face to face. |  |
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| Ministerial bullying on 14:12 - Feb 28 with 1724 views | RegencyBlue |
Having worked in the lower ranks of the Civil Service for 40+ years before retirement some of the behaviour from senior management left a lot to be desired frankly! |  | | |
| Ministerial bullying on 14:46 - Feb 28 with 1639 views | DJR |
Yet more whataboutery but, if true, and Brown was certainly bad-mouthed by the Blairites (the article by Rawnsley appears to be designed to encourage people not to vote for Labour in 2010), I would suggest he is the exception that proves the rule.
Certainly, my experience of the Blair, Brown, Major and Thatcher governments, and our office had very close dealings with Ministers from all departments, is that they were all very courteous.
Also not a good look to appear to be standing up for unacceptable behaviour by the Tories, which is what whataboutery is all about. [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 14:56]
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| Ministerial bullying on 14:50 - Feb 28 with 1622 views | DJR |
| Ministerial bullying on 14:12 - Feb 28 by RegencyBlue |
Having worked in the lower ranks of the Civil Service for 40+ years before retirement some of the behaviour from senior management left a lot to be desired frankly! |
I'm really sorry about that. It should not happen but hopefully things are better these days. [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 15:01]
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| Ministerial bullying on 15:05 - Feb 28 with 1602 views | DJR |
| Ministerial bullying on 12:26 - Feb 28 by homer_123 |
Sadly, 1 in 6 is actually quite low.
In the work we do with both private and public sectors, that figure is way higher, more like 1 in 3.
That said, remember that 'unacceptable workplace behaviour' is very much open to interpretation. We've seen many, many instances where people believe they have witnessed unacceptable behaviour and/ or experienced it but in actuality not the case at all. One example would be managers dealing with poor performance etc., handled that very well but the individual has taken umbrage or others have taken umbrage on their behalf.
That said, the above doesn't detract from an issue that is actually growing since remote/ hybrid working has come into play. A lot of issues stem from people being more comfortable typing, writing or saying something on a call that they would not face to face. |
Clearly there are cases where people have unfounded grievances, but I don't think home working has anything to do with what I posted because the people in question have direct contact with ministers.
In any case, the words I quoted included being "shouted and swore at, belittled and in cases fearful for the wellbeing of their staff" which I don't think anyone would think is acceptable. And it mustn't be forgotten that in many cases where ministers are involved, there are normally several civil servants involved, and so other witnesses. But it can't be good if they are too frightened, or too lacking in power, to do anything about it.
And finally the current system has to be seen in the light of the following passage from the email I quoted.
"Firstly, on Friday, we wrote to the Health and Safety Executive calling on them to investigate the processes and practises for dealing with complaints of bullying and harassment against ministers by civil servants. You can read the report and the letter, which were sent to the Health and Safety Executive.
As you will be aware, we have been calling for a fully independent process for handling complaints against ministers since the ‘MeToo’ scandal engulfed Westminster over 5 years ago.
Boris Johnson’s decision to ignore the findings against the former Home Secretary, Priti Patel, only underscored the fatal flaw in the current arrangements, which ultimately are subject to the whim of the Prime Minister. Our judicial review of that decision also uncovered that the Prime Minister had sat on the report for almost 6 months before he was essentially forced to publish it, prompting the resignation of his Independent Adviser, Sir Alex Allan.
Despite recommendations from the Committee on Standards in Public Life to establish an independent process on a statutory footing, and the introduction of fully independent processes for dealing with complaints in the House of Commons and Scottish Government, successive Prime Ministers have refused to undertake meaningful reform that would provide much needed confidence in the process.
Rishi Sunak’s decision to keep the current remit for his Independent Adviser on Ministers’ Interests, when he appointed Sir Laurie Magnus in December, made clear that reform was not his priority, despite his warm words about accountability and integrity as he entered Downing Street." [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 15:25]
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| Ministerial bullying on 15:21 - Feb 28 with 1555 views | brazil1982 |
Are there surveys from other periods of government, or is this the first one? |  | | |
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| Ministerial bullying on 15:31 - Feb 28 with 1544 views | DJR |
| Ministerial bullying on 15:21 - Feb 28 by brazil1982 |
Are there surveys from other periods of government, or is this the first one? |
The findings come from the annual survey of union members.
Certainly in the 20 odd years that I was a civil servant until 2011, it was not something that the union ever raised or campaigned on which would suggest it is a recent problem, perhaps being brought to a head by Johnson's dismissal of the findings against Patel. [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 15:33]
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| Ministerial bullying on 15:55 - Feb 28 with 1494 views | homer_123 |
| Ministerial bullying on 15:05 - Feb 28 by DJR |
Clearly there are cases where people have unfounded grievances, but I don't think home working has anything to do with what I posted because the people in question have direct contact with ministers.
In any case, the words I quoted included being "shouted and swore at, belittled and in cases fearful for the wellbeing of their staff" which I don't think anyone would think is acceptable. And it mustn't be forgotten that in many cases where ministers are involved, there are normally several civil servants involved, and so other witnesses. But it can't be good if they are too frightened, or too lacking in power, to do anything about it.
And finally the current system has to be seen in the light of the following passage from the email I quoted.
"Firstly, on Friday, we wrote to the Health and Safety Executive calling on them to investigate the processes and practises for dealing with complaints of bullying and harassment against ministers by civil servants. You can read the report and the letter, which were sent to the Health and Safety Executive.
As you will be aware, we have been calling for a fully independent process for handling complaints against ministers since the ‘MeToo’ scandal engulfed Westminster over 5 years ago.
Boris Johnson’s decision to ignore the findings against the former Home Secretary, Priti Patel, only underscored the fatal flaw in the current arrangements, which ultimately are subject to the whim of the Prime Minister. Our judicial review of that decision also uncovered that the Prime Minister had sat on the report for almost 6 months before he was essentially forced to publish it, prompting the resignation of his Independent Adviser, Sir Alex Allan.
Despite recommendations from the Committee on Standards in Public Life to establish an independent process on a statutory footing, and the introduction of fully independent processes for dealing with complaints in the House of Commons and Scottish Government, successive Prime Ministers have refused to undertake meaningful reform that would provide much needed confidence in the process.
Rishi Sunak’s decision to keep the current remit for his Independent Adviser on Ministers’ Interests, when he appointed Sir Laurie Magnus in December, made clear that reform was not his priority, despite his warm words about accountability and integrity as he entered Downing Street." [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 15:25]
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And I did state that our research is showing it's 1 in 3 and not 1 in 6. ;) | |
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| Ministerial bullying on 15:56 - Feb 28 with 1496 views | DJR |
| Ministerial bullying on 15:05 - Feb 28 by DJR |
Clearly there are cases where people have unfounded grievances, but I don't think home working has anything to do with what I posted because the people in question have direct contact with ministers.
In any case, the words I quoted included being "shouted and swore at, belittled and in cases fearful for the wellbeing of their staff" which I don't think anyone would think is acceptable. And it mustn't be forgotten that in many cases where ministers are involved, there are normally several civil servants involved, and so other witnesses. But it can't be good if they are too frightened, or too lacking in power, to do anything about it.
And finally the current system has to be seen in the light of the following passage from the email I quoted.
"Firstly, on Friday, we wrote to the Health and Safety Executive calling on them to investigate the processes and practises for dealing with complaints of bullying and harassment against ministers by civil servants. You can read the report and the letter, which were sent to the Health and Safety Executive.
As you will be aware, we have been calling for a fully independent process for handling complaints against ministers since the ‘MeToo’ scandal engulfed Westminster over 5 years ago.
Boris Johnson’s decision to ignore the findings against the former Home Secretary, Priti Patel, only underscored the fatal flaw in the current arrangements, which ultimately are subject to the whim of the Prime Minister. Our judicial review of that decision also uncovered that the Prime Minister had sat on the report for almost 6 months before he was essentially forced to publish it, prompting the resignation of his Independent Adviser, Sir Alex Allan.
Despite recommendations from the Committee on Standards in Public Life to establish an independent process on a statutory footing, and the introduction of fully independent processes for dealing with complaints in the House of Commons and Scottish Government, successive Prime Ministers have refused to undertake meaningful reform that would provide much needed confidence in the process.
Rishi Sunak’s decision to keep the current remit for his Independent Adviser on Ministers’ Interests, when he appointed Sir Laurie Magnus in December, made clear that reform was not his priority, despite his warm words about accountability and integrity as he entered Downing Street." [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 15:25]
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Here's a link to the report mentioned in the post, which includes on pages 11 to 16 examples of the behaviour concerned.
https://mcusercontent.com/365dd7fd25caa901b9c177c40/files/f65eccbb-a816-5942-30d
At the end of the day, it is clear that the standard of ministers these days is nothing like it was in the past, with no real sense of propriety, indifference to the rule of law, and instigating policies which rarely ever work in practice. As a result, it must be much more difficult for civil servants than in my day, something made even worse with no real pay increases and abusive ministers. | | | |
| Ministerial bullying on 15:57 - Feb 28 with 1483 views | DJR |
| Ministerial bullying on 15:55 - Feb 28 by homer_123 |
And I did state that our research is showing it's 1 in 3 and not 1 in 6. ;) |
Sorry, I didn't acknowledge that. | | | |
| Ministerial bullying on 16:48 - Feb 28 with 1400 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Ministerial bullying on 14:46 - Feb 28 by DJR |
Yet more whataboutery but, if true, and Brown was certainly bad-mouthed by the Blairites (the article by Rawnsley appears to be designed to encourage people not to vote for Labour in 2010), I would suggest he is the exception that proves the rule.
Certainly, my experience of the Blair, Brown, Major and Thatcher governments, and our office had very close dealings with Ministers from all departments, is that they were all very courteous.
Also not a good look to appear to be standing up for unacceptable behaviour by the Tories, which is what whataboutery is all about. [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 14:56]
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It's hardly whatabouttery or standing up for bullying when somebody corrects your false claim that "it wasn't like this prior to 2010".
All bullying is wrong. Pre 2010 and post 2010. I could counter that it's not a good look to appear to be standing up for unacceptable behaviour by Labour which was highlighted in my post.
Except you didn't stand up for it any more than I did. Sometimes your logic is like that of a 6th form debater.
You did the same the other day by accusing me of trying to equate Muslims with bigotry on the Humza Yousaf/ Kate Forbes thread until a few people put you straight. Stop trying to find something in a post that doesn't exist.
Btw, here's a second link. Also from the Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/feb/21/gordon-brown-fresh-bullying-all [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 17:21]
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| Ministerial bullying on 17:55 - Feb 28 with 1327 views | eireblue |
| Ministerial bullying on 16:48 - Feb 28 by GlasgowBlue |
It's hardly whatabouttery or standing up for bullying when somebody corrects your false claim that "it wasn't like this prior to 2010".
All bullying is wrong. Pre 2010 and post 2010. I could counter that it's not a good look to appear to be standing up for unacceptable behaviour by Labour which was highlighted in my post.
Except you didn't stand up for it any more than I did. Sometimes your logic is like that of a 6th form debater.
You did the same the other day by accusing me of trying to equate Muslims with bigotry on the Humza Yousaf/ Kate Forbes thread until a few people put you straight. Stop trying to find something in a post that doesn't exist.
Btw, here's a second link. Also from the Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/feb/21/gordon-brown-fresh-bullying-all [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 17:21]
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So are you trying to say, it was equally bad pre-2010, this was known, and the current government haven’t managed to make it any better, after 13 years? |  | | |
| Ministerial bullying on 17:58 - Feb 28 with 1324 views | Trequartista |
When Gordon Ramsay humiliates, undermines, shouts, swears at belittles restaurant owners, all their restaurants improve remarkably. On every single episode. So confusing. |  |
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| Ministerial bullying on 17:58 - Feb 28 with 1303 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Ministerial bullying on 17:55 - Feb 28 by eireblue |
So are you trying to say, it was equally bad pre-2010, this was known, and the current government haven’t managed to make it any better, after 13 years? |
I'm saying hat DJR is incorrect when saying "It was never like this prior to 2010". | |
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| Ministerial bullying on 17:59 - Feb 28 with 1301 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Ministerial bullying on 17:58 - Feb 28 by Trequartista |
When Gordon Ramsay humiliates, undermines, shouts, swears at belittles restaurant owners, all their restaurants improve remarkably. On every single episode. So confusing. |
Gordon Brown is in the hospitality industry now? | |
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| Ministerial bullying on 18:10 - Feb 28 with 1298 views | DJR |
| Ministerial bullying on 16:48 - Feb 28 by GlasgowBlue |
It's hardly whatabouttery or standing up for bullying when somebody corrects your false claim that "it wasn't like this prior to 2010".
All bullying is wrong. Pre 2010 and post 2010. I could counter that it's not a good look to appear to be standing up for unacceptable behaviour by Labour which was highlighted in my post.
Except you didn't stand up for it any more than I did. Sometimes your logic is like that of a 6th form debater.
You did the same the other day by accusing me of trying to equate Muslims with bigotry on the Humza Yousaf/ Kate Forbes thread until a few people put you straight. Stop trying to find something in a post that doesn't exist.
Btw, here's a second link. Also from the Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/feb/21/gordon-brown-fresh-bullying-all [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 17:21]
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I didn't accuse you of that at all. It was the way the thread developed that made me pose the question that I did. And I am not sure it is correct to say people put me straight.
Anyway I'm not going to take lessons about 6th form debating from someone who has a habit of linking articles from outlets or individuals that are biased or have an agenda as if that were the whole truth.
Instead, I like to think that I put my case in a considered way. [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 18:20]
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| Ministerial bullying on 19:12 - Feb 28 with 1159 views | eireblue |
| Ministerial bullying on 17:58 - Feb 28 by GlasgowBlue |
I'm saying hat DJR is incorrect when saying "It was never like this prior to 2010". |
So it was like that pre-2010.
And people knew about it, clearly you knew.
Crikey, and no one has done anything about it.
Even when Call me Dave was going through his hug a hoodie phase.
Shocking. | | | |
| Ministerial bullying on 20:24 - Feb 28 with 1087 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Ministerial bullying on 18:34 - Feb 28 by DJR |
To be honest, you are the only person on the General section that I find abrasive, so I think in future I just won't engage with you because it's not really my style and I rarely find anything you say advances the debate.
But I won't put you on ignore. [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 20:13]
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Abrasive? I literally turned your own words back on you. | |
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| Ministerial bullying on 20:27 - Feb 28 with 1082 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Ministerial bullying on 19:12 - Feb 28 by eireblue |
So it was like that pre-2010.
And people knew about it, clearly you knew.
Crikey, and no one has done anything about it.
Even when Call me Dave was going through his hug a hoodie phase.
Shocking. |
Absolutely shocking. I am reminded when the bullying allegations against Bercow first started to surface and the remainers looked the other way because he was 'frustrating Brexit'. | |
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| Ministerial bullying on 20:41 - Feb 28 with 1078 views | DJR |
| Ministerial bullying on 20:27 - Feb 28 by GlasgowBlue |
Absolutely shocking. I am reminded when the bullying allegations against Bercow first started to surface and the remainers looked the other way because he was 'frustrating Brexit'. |
Yet more whataboutery (an expression which you should know well from the antisemitism debate) which fails to address the serious issues I have raised in this thread that are going on now, including the lack of a proper, independent complaints procedure which does now exist for Commons' staff.
Indeed, until you got involved there was quite an interesting and measured debate going on.
You are now on ignore because 4th form debating really isn't for me. [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 21:48]
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