| Frustrating, but not a disaster 23:18 - Dec 29 with 2496 views | Dubtractor |
That performance was pretty much what we would all have expected from a team missing 5 of it's best players, but even then we were the only team trying to win it in the second half.
Ball, Ladapo and Williams gave 2/10 performances, and Ball and Ladapo are miles from the standard we need for what we are doing now. Ball offers almost nothing, no drive, no passing, no aggression, and almost every pass to him was simply passed straight back the player who passed to him. Ladapo just hasn't got anything like the technical ability to play in that team now. Williams clearly has the ability but bloody hell that was a clown show from him.
We looked far better when those 3 went off.
Hutchinson had a game where he looked good until the final ball, which was consistently very poor. Everyone else had a 6/10 game, but it was all just so disjointed compared to what we usually offer, which shouldn't have surprised anyone.
The need to get a centre forward in, and sharpish, was illustrated very clearly tonight. Here's hoping we've got something lined up. |  |
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| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 00:04 - Dec 30 with 2393 views | LankHenners |
Definitely showed, if it wasn't glaringly obvious in the first place, that we don't really have the luxury to change half the team and expect the same outcome. Said before I understand the love and positivity towards our '2nd string' players from fans but think that has blinkered some perceptions of how good they actually are.
Ladapo was crap let's be honest - no idea what he was doing for the first 1v1 he ended up not even getting a shot away from then should have scored the 2nd (though should probably give Begovic some credit). Struggled to get him in the game but he ambled about like he had lead weights in his boots.
Ball was like Cole Skuse after his legs had gone - ultra safe, too slow and wasn't getting around the pitch in any way that was effective. Williams looked well out of it - too many times he gave the ball away or held onto it for too long to the point all he could do was play a hopeful ball up the line rather than just pass to the player that was free 8 years ago.
Bit of a curate's egg performance from both Omari and Harness I thought - as if every good thing they did had to be countered by a poor pass, cross etc.
On that note thought we saw the typical Jackson performance - gave us a bit of a lift with his closing down and general energy but frustrated when he had the chance to put a ball into the box but just passed it straight to the GK.
QPR clearly tried (and generally succeeded) to suffocate the space for Chaplin but even with that noted I don't think he had anywhere near his best game.
Enjoyed young Buabo's cameo - only there because of the amount of absentees but looked a handful and certainly showed a lot of enthusiasm.
One other thought - thought the ref was a tit. Gave them everything they appealed for, booked Chaplin for a breakaway foul (fair enough) but then didn't do the same for at least 3 separate incidents by QPR players, and having put on 8 mins at the end, in part due to time wasting, then blew up exactly after 8 had been played despite Begovic taking just as long over everything as he was previously. Should've given QPR at least one pen though so maybe that evened it out! |  |
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| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 00:55 - Dec 30 with 2323 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 00:04 - Dec 30 by LankHenners |
Definitely showed, if it wasn't glaringly obvious in the first place, that we don't really have the luxury to change half the team and expect the same outcome. Said before I understand the love and positivity towards our '2nd string' players from fans but think that has blinkered some perceptions of how good they actually are.
Ladapo was crap let's be honest - no idea what he was doing for the first 1v1 he ended up not even getting a shot away from then should have scored the 2nd (though should probably give Begovic some credit). Struggled to get him in the game but he ambled about like he had lead weights in his boots.
Ball was like Cole Skuse after his legs had gone - ultra safe, too slow and wasn't getting around the pitch in any way that was effective. Williams looked well out of it - too many times he gave the ball away or held onto it for too long to the point all he could do was play a hopeful ball up the line rather than just pass to the player that was free 8 years ago.
Bit of a curate's egg performance from both Omari and Harness I thought - as if every good thing they did had to be countered by a poor pass, cross etc.
On that note thought we saw the typical Jackson performance - gave us a bit of a lift with his closing down and general energy but frustrated when he had the chance to put a ball into the box but just passed it straight to the GK.
QPR clearly tried (and generally succeeded) to suffocate the space for Chaplin but even with that noted I don't think he had anywhere near his best game.
Enjoyed young Buabo's cameo - only there because of the amount of absentees but looked a handful and certainly showed a lot of enthusiasm.
One other thought - thought the ref was a tit. Gave them everything they appealed for, booked Chaplin for a breakaway foul (fair enough) but then didn't do the same for at least 3 separate incidents by QPR players, and having put on 8 mins at the end, in part due to time wasting, then blew up exactly after 8 had been played despite Begovic taking just as long over everything as he was previously. Should've given QPR at least one pen though so maybe that evened it out! |
Begovic ought to have been off. If you set the standard with one yellow, you ought to apply the same standard for the rest of the game. |  | | |
| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 08:37 - Dec 30 with 2179 views | Dubtractor |
| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 00:55 - Dec 30 by redrickstuhaart |
Begovic ought to have been off. If you set the standard with one yellow, you ought to apply the same standard for the rest of the game. |
The time wasting from QPR in the second half was on a par with some of the nonsense we used to see in league 1.
FWIW I don't think we'd have scored if another 20 minutes was played, but it prevented us from building up a head of steam in the second half and made the game really bitty. | |
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| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 08:45 - Dec 30 with 2141 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
As usual you were watching the same game as me Dubbers...agree with all of that. |  |
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| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 08:46 - Dec 30 with 2138 views | BlueOura |
I agree with most of that but feel it's a little bit harsh on Ball. For somebody who hasn't started a game in eons I thought he came in a did a fairly good job, nothing special but at least kept the ball moving and rarely gave it away. Obviously he is no Morsy but I felt he did ok generally and Taylor didnt offer much more when he came on.
As for Williams and Ladapo, well the latter was terrible and clearly well below the standard we need at this level and the former has the ability but is either carrying a knock or is simply not interested. I suspect it's the latter in which case he needs to be sent back to Man Utd and replaced by somebody that is. [Post edited 30 Dec 2023 10:35]
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| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 09:13 - Dec 30 with 2047 views | Herbivore |
| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 00:04 - Dec 30 by LankHenners |
Definitely showed, if it wasn't glaringly obvious in the first place, that we don't really have the luxury to change half the team and expect the same outcome. Said before I understand the love and positivity towards our '2nd string' players from fans but think that has blinkered some perceptions of how good they actually are.
Ladapo was crap let's be honest - no idea what he was doing for the first 1v1 he ended up not even getting a shot away from then should have scored the 2nd (though should probably give Begovic some credit). Struggled to get him in the game but he ambled about like he had lead weights in his boots.
Ball was like Cole Skuse after his legs had gone - ultra safe, too slow and wasn't getting around the pitch in any way that was effective. Williams looked well out of it - too many times he gave the ball away or held onto it for too long to the point all he could do was play a hopeful ball up the line rather than just pass to the player that was free 8 years ago.
Bit of a curate's egg performance from both Omari and Harness I thought - as if every good thing they did had to be countered by a poor pass, cross etc.
On that note thought we saw the typical Jackson performance - gave us a bit of a lift with his closing down and general energy but frustrated when he had the chance to put a ball into the box but just passed it straight to the GK.
QPR clearly tried (and generally succeeded) to suffocate the space for Chaplin but even with that noted I don't think he had anywhere near his best game.
Enjoyed young Buabo's cameo - only there because of the amount of absentees but looked a handful and certainly showed a lot of enthusiasm.
One other thought - thought the ref was a tit. Gave them everything they appealed for, booked Chaplin for a breakaway foul (fair enough) but then didn't do the same for at least 3 separate incidents by QPR players, and having put on 8 mins at the end, in part due to time wasting, then blew up exactly after 8 had been played despite Begovic taking just as long over everything as he was previously. Should've given QPR at least one pen though so maybe that evened it out! |
Thing is, we can change half the team and still be effective, that's exactly what we did away to Watford. Five changes that night and whilst it wasn't our most fluent performance, we won a tough away game. But there's a big difference between choosing to make five changes and being able to plan for that and being forced to make that many changes, a number involving key players, and many of those changes having to be made very last minute. It's almost impossible to effectively prepare for that. I imagine if Leeds had lost Spence, Ampadu, Summerville, Rutter, and Piroe within a couple of days (or minutes) of facing us last week then they wouldn't have been turning us over 4-0 despite their squad depth. Of course we could do with strengthening further, that is a given, but if we hadn't had to throw that side together last minute we might well have had enough about us to eek out a win. We almost did anyway with Begovic having to make a couple of good saves from Ladapo and Harness. |  |
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| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 09:24 - Dec 30 with 1989 views | jayessess |
| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 00:04 - Dec 30 by LankHenners |
Definitely showed, if it wasn't glaringly obvious in the first place, that we don't really have the luxury to change half the team and expect the same outcome. Said before I understand the love and positivity towards our '2nd string' players from fans but think that has blinkered some perceptions of how good they actually are.
Ladapo was crap let's be honest - no idea what he was doing for the first 1v1 he ended up not even getting a shot away from then should have scored the 2nd (though should probably give Begovic some credit). Struggled to get him in the game but he ambled about like he had lead weights in his boots.
Ball was like Cole Skuse after his legs had gone - ultra safe, too slow and wasn't getting around the pitch in any way that was effective. Williams looked well out of it - too many times he gave the ball away or held onto it for too long to the point all he could do was play a hopeful ball up the line rather than just pass to the player that was free 8 years ago.
Bit of a curate's egg performance from both Omari and Harness I thought - as if every good thing they did had to be countered by a poor pass, cross etc.
On that note thought we saw the typical Jackson performance - gave us a bit of a lift with his closing down and general energy but frustrated when he had the chance to put a ball into the box but just passed it straight to the GK.
QPR clearly tried (and generally succeeded) to suffocate the space for Chaplin but even with that noted I don't think he had anywhere near his best game.
Enjoyed young Buabo's cameo - only there because of the amount of absentees but looked a handful and certainly showed a lot of enthusiasm.
One other thought - thought the ref was a tit. Gave them everything they appealed for, booked Chaplin for a breakaway foul (fair enough) but then didn't do the same for at least 3 separate incidents by QPR players, and having put on 8 mins at the end, in part due to time wasting, then blew up exactly after 8 had been played despite Begovic taking just as long over everything as he was previously. Should've given QPR at least one pen though so maybe that evened it out! |
I think it's less that people are blinkered about the quality of our 2nd string, more that some people have an unrealistic idea of what a 2nd string looks like for a non-parachute team.
Davis, Morsy, Broadhead, Hirst, Burns, Clarke is not just 6 of our starting eleven, it's also 4/5 of our biggest attacking threats and our best centre midfielder. You just can't build a squad on our budget that covers that volume of absences without noticing it. |  |
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| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 09:55 - Dec 30 with 1925 views | Churchman |
| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 09:13 - Dec 30 by Herbivore |
Thing is, we can change half the team and still be effective, that's exactly what we did away to Watford. Five changes that night and whilst it wasn't our most fluent performance, we won a tough away game. But there's a big difference between choosing to make five changes and being able to plan for that and being forced to make that many changes, a number involving key players, and many of those changes having to be made very last minute. It's almost impossible to effectively prepare for that. I imagine if Leeds had lost Spence, Ampadu, Summerville, Rutter, and Piroe within a couple of days (or minutes) of facing us last week then they wouldn't have been turning us over 4-0 despite their squad depth. Of course we could do with strengthening further, that is a given, but if we hadn't had to throw that side together last minute we might well have had enough about us to eek out a win. We almost did anyway with Begovic having to make a couple of good saves from Ladapo and Harness. |
In addition to a team literally thrown together at the last minute, the match came at the end of a seven game month just three days on from Leicester and six from Leeds away. A lot went into the month and in particular Tuesday’s game. That was one heck of an effort, but last night felt one match too many.
It should not be forgotten that QPR are improving and we didn’t exactly trample all over them in the away fixture either. They’re not the best team you’ll ever see but they’d beat most teams we played last season. Given how our team was ripped around you could argue that QPR missed an opportunity.
I think we need to cut McKenna and the players a bit of slack given the circumstances. That includes the forthcoming Stoke game. The results recently have been disappointing but look worse because first Leeds (who are as far behind as they were a month ago) and Southampton have been on great runs. Leicester are just on a different level anyway.
12 points from 7 games for the month isn’t the worst return in the world. Finally, the age old question: did the players go out there and try their hardest? The answer is yes and that’s enough. |  | | |
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| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 10:00 - Dec 30 with 1906 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 09:24 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
I think it's less that people are blinkered about the quality of our 2nd string, more that some people have an unrealistic idea of what a 2nd string looks like for a non-parachute team.
Davis, Morsy, Broadhead, Hirst, Burns, Clarke is not just 6 of our starting eleven, it's also 4/5 of our biggest attacking threats and our best centre midfielder. You just can't build a squad on our budget that covers that volume of absences without noticing it. |
I think any team would struggle without arguably 5 of their 6 best and most important players.
Saying that, improving the squad depth is our challenge in January. I do think we've been light up front all season and we are quite lucky it has taken Hirst this long to pick up an injury. | | | |
| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 11:36 - Dec 30 with 1810 views | LankHenners |
| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 09:24 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
I think it's less that people are blinkered about the quality of our 2nd string, more that some people have an unrealistic idea of what a 2nd string looks like for a non-parachute team.
Davis, Morsy, Broadhead, Hirst, Burns, Clarke is not just 6 of our starting eleven, it's also 4/5 of our biggest attacking threats and our best centre midfielder. You just can't build a squad on our budget that covers that volume of absences without noticing it. |
Not said otherwise and I think that's a separate point really. Generally it seems people show some concern about the quality of the '2nd string', it gets countered with 'why are you being so harsh on [player X], they've done well for us in the past, they've played games at this level before' etc. then they play and look pretty far off the player they're replacing and suddenly it becomes 'well what did you expect we can't afford to have such quality in depth' which was pretty much what was being argued in the first place! | |
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| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 12:18 - Dec 30 with 1747 views | jayessess |
| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 11:36 - Dec 30 by LankHenners |
Not said otherwise and I think that's a separate point really. Generally it seems people show some concern about the quality of the '2nd string', it gets countered with 'why are you being so harsh on [player X], they've done well for us in the past, they've played games at this level before' etc. then they play and look pretty far off the player they're replacing and suddenly it becomes 'well what did you expect we can't afford to have such quality in depth' which was pretty much what was being argued in the first place! |
It's not separate at all though.
It's perfectly coherent to argue that all our squad players have their merits and are of a reasonable quality relative to our available resources, whilst not believing that we could replace half a dozen of our main starting eleven with no significant drop off.
None of the harsh criticism directed towards our fringe players comes from the place you're pretending it does, where it acknowledges that resources aren't infinite and the squad players inevitably have deficiencies. It's all "Jackson's useless! Get rid now!" | |
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| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 12:41 - Dec 30 with 1689 views | pointofblue |
| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 09:55 - Dec 30 by Churchman |
In addition to a team literally thrown together at the last minute, the match came at the end of a seven game month just three days on from Leicester and six from Leeds away. A lot went into the month and in particular Tuesday’s game. That was one heck of an effort, but last night felt one match too many.
It should not be forgotten that QPR are improving and we didn’t exactly trample all over them in the away fixture either. They’re not the best team you’ll ever see but they’d beat most teams we played last season. Given how our team was ripped around you could argue that QPR missed an opportunity.
I think we need to cut McKenna and the players a bit of slack given the circumstances. That includes the forthcoming Stoke game. The results recently have been disappointing but look worse because first Leeds (who are as far behind as they were a month ago) and Southampton have been on great runs. Leicester are just on a different level anyway.
12 points from 7 games for the month isn’t the worst return in the world. Finally, the age old question: did the players go out there and try their hardest? The answer is yes and that’s enough. |
We had a decent League One side out there last night, due to the players which were missing. A decent Championship side would have ripped us to shreds and grabbed the three points unless McKenna had taken the Mick approach (which he didn’t). For them to celebrate a point struck me as odd; clearly they were looking at the table rather than the teams on the pitch.
And that’s not a criticism of us. As said, most teams would struggle losing five key players just after being promoted. Plymouth would be in real trouble without Mumba, Azaz, Edwards, Whittaker and Hardie. We’re in a ridiculous position, and just now need to get past the Stoke game then regroup. | |
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| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 13:12 - Dec 30 with 1646 views | LankHenners |
| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 12:18 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
It's not separate at all though.
It's perfectly coherent to argue that all our squad players have their merits and are of a reasonable quality relative to our available resources, whilst not believing that we could replace half a dozen of our main starting eleven with no significant drop off.
None of the harsh criticism directed towards our fringe players comes from the place you're pretending it does, where it acknowledges that resources aren't infinite and the squad players inevitably have deficiencies. It's all "Jackson's useless! Get rid now!" |
There is obviously some overly harsh criticism about but I don't really see the issue in saying, for example, Ladapo isn't nearly as good as Hirst without having to preface it by talking about relative cost etc.
Don't think it's fair to accuse me of inventing scenarios when there's been plenty of balanced discussion about our squad on here. If you just narrow in on the extreme bits then that's all you'll see. | |
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| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 13:19 - Dec 30 with 1619 views | Herbivore |
| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 12:41 - Dec 30 by pointofblue |
We had a decent League One side out there last night, due to the players which were missing. A decent Championship side would have ripped us to shreds and grabbed the three points unless McKenna had taken the Mick approach (which he didn’t). For them to celebrate a point struck me as odd; clearly they were looking at the table rather than the teams on the pitch.
And that’s not a criticism of us. As said, most teams would struggle losing five key players just after being promoted. Plymouth would be in real trouble without Mumba, Azaz, Edwards, Whittaker and Hardie. We’re in a ridiculous position, and just now need to get past the Stoke game then regroup. |
I think you clearly can't remember what League 1 was like if you think we put out a decent League 1 side last night. | |
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| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 16:24 - Dec 30 with 1498 views | jayessess |
| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 13:12 - Dec 30 by LankHenners |
There is obviously some overly harsh criticism about but I don't really see the issue in saying, for example, Ladapo isn't nearly as good as Hirst without having to preface it by talking about relative cost etc.
Don't think it's fair to accuse me of inventing scenarios when there's been plenty of balanced discussion about our squad on here. If you just narrow in on the extreme bits then that's all you'll see. |
Reserve players not as good as starters is basically always going to be true, isn't it? Up there with "Ipswich Town usually play in blue" as an observation. | |
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| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 16:32 - Dec 30 with 1469 views | pointofblue |
| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 13:12 - Dec 30 by LankHenners |
There is obviously some overly harsh criticism about but I don't really see the issue in saying, for example, Ladapo isn't nearly as good as Hirst without having to preface it by talking about relative cost etc.
Don't think it's fair to accuse me of inventing scenarios when there's been plenty of balanced discussion about our squad on here. If you just narrow in on the extreme bits then that's all you'll see. |
It's also worth nothing Ladapo would probably perform better surrounded by Burns, Morsy, Davis and a 100% Broadhead. As would Hutchinson (replace Burns with Hirst from the above). As would Ball (replace Morsy with... etc.). As would Harness (replace Broadhead... You get my point). It's not just the fact we had our reserves out there that was the issue - it was they were together. Indeed, out of remaining out field first teamers I'd say Woolfenden was the only one who was anywhere near his peak. | |
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| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 16:46 - Dec 30 with 1428 views | LankHenners |
| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 16:24 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
Reserve players not as good as starters is basically always going to be true, isn't it? Up there with "Ipswich Town usually play in blue" as an observation. |
If you're just going to deliberately miss the point to make a patronising, arsey comment then there's no point continuing this is there? | |
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| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 17:19 - Dec 30 with 1353 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 16:24 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
Reserve players not as good as starters is basically always going to be true, isn't it? Up there with "Ipswich Town usually play in blue" as an observation. |
Obviously. But the gap is too big when it comes to strikers right now. I don't think it is particularly controversial to say that. McKenna knows it. And we knew it in the summer hence pursuing other targets like Simms. We've been fortunate Hirst has managed to stay fit but it's been obvious for weeks he was running himself into the ground because we didn't really trust Jackson, Ladapo or Scarlett to share many minutes with him. It's not even just about a drop off in quality, it is a differentiation in attributes the players have.
I know we've had this discussion before about it not being easy to find someone as good as or better than Hirst but the reality is if we want to stay in this automatic promotion race we have to. [Post edited 30 Dec 2023 17:22]
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| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 17:42 - Dec 30 with 1287 views | BigCommon |
| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 13:12 - Dec 30 by LankHenners |
There is obviously some overly harsh criticism about but I don't really see the issue in saying, for example, Ladapo isn't nearly as good as Hirst without having to preface it by talking about relative cost etc.
Don't think it's fair to accuse me of inventing scenarios when there's been plenty of balanced discussion about our squad on here. If you just narrow in on the extreme bits then that's all you'll see. |
The issue is the negative stance on Ladapo (or any player)
You can say exactly the same thing, without a single negative word,,
"Hirst is our best option up top, we missed him tonight", for instance...
Please don't take this as a personal dig. But anyone can put a less negative spin on a subject, if they chose their words.... It's far more pleasant to use positive phrases, imo. |  | | |
| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 17:52 - Dec 30 with 1256 views | LankHenners |
| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 17:42 - Dec 30 by BigCommon |
The issue is the negative stance on Ladapo (or any player)
You can say exactly the same thing, without a single negative word,,
"Hirst is our best option up top, we missed him tonight", for instance...
Please don't take this as a personal dig. But anyone can put a less negative spin on a subject, if they chose their words.... It's far more pleasant to use positive phrases, imo. |
Or people should be allowed to comment on the players that played in a thread about the match they played in. | |
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| Frustrating, but not a disaster on 19:05 - Dec 30 with 1164 views | lmfcblue |
Ball 2/10 what the hell was you watching???? | | | |
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