| We're a long way from being relegated already 08:34 - Dec 9 with 2246 views | Steve_M |
Even if yesterday feels like the sort of defeat that leads directly to that. One of the things I remember vividly from 2001-02 was how easy it is to play fairly well in a run of matches in this league and still not win.
A lot of what we did yesterday was good enough, if Palace was flat on and off the pitch then both players and fans improved on that a lot. It's still frustrating that it's not quite good enough, that combination of a lack of depth and too many critical mistakes failing us yet again.
For a squad without enough depth, the injuries to Hirst and Ogbene feel critical at the moment. We've seen how McKenna likes to change forward players within games to maintain our intensity but now we only have Delap, Omari, Szmodics and Chaplin who really look up to it. Odd bits from Burns or Clarke , Al-Hamadi is a development project who did ok yesterday but it's not enough. (I've not seen Broadhead this season so won't comment on him).
Some of that is bad luck, certainly losing Ogbene is, although the failure to get the striker we wanted in for the third successive season is more than that. We've rectified that to a large extent in January in each of the last two seasons but it's going to be more difficult to do so this season.
And then there are the mistakes, totally horrendous from Muric yesterday. And, after a bad start, I think he's been pretty decent for the most part in recent matches. There's clearly a balance there between his doing so much so well and then the total errors but it wouldn't be a total surprise to see Walton in next week.
Despite that, defensively we're mainly ok it's the lack of goals that's the big problem for us. We score more than once so rarely that it's much harder to win as just about every team in this division is capable of pulling a goal out of virtually nothing. We had chances yesterday, that one Chaplin put just wide late on would have changed everything had he made it 2-0....
It's probable we aren't going to be quite good enough, indeed that was the case back in August, but nor is that a certainty, even now. The biggest positive is that we are still in touch, indeed a win yesterday and it would be very close. Going back to 01-02 again we needed an exceptional run of form to come back into contention at this time of year.
We need to keep that gap as it is until January and see if we can improve the squad then but also need those players with Premier League experience to step up - Phillips hasn't been seen for a month, Johnson had two good games but a poor one yesterday. Not ideal when we need experience to close games down.
And now we have to want West Ham to win tonight too....
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| We're a long way from being relegated already on 08:49 - Dec 9 with 2158 views | LA_Tractor_Boy |
I like your optimism but sadly I think we're done.
I read a comment from a Sheff Utd fan who said that last season their players got tired of trying their best but not being good enough. No matter what they earn etc, it must be demoralising.
Our only chance is to beat Wolves and Newcastle, end the year on 15 points (assuming we lose to Arsenal/Chelsea) and hope we're still in touch with Palace, Leicester, Everton and West Ham. |  | | |
| We're a long way from being relegated already on 09:07 - Dec 9 with 2052 views | ITFC_Forever |
Pretty fair.
Although I'm not sure we want West Ham to win tonight - would we rather keep as many sides in and around us than allow another one to get further away from us?
This season certainly has 2001-02 vibes about it - there comes a point where losing multiple games by fine margins is no longer unlucky and is actually that we're not quite good enough.
The goals for output has concerned me since the start of the season, and as with any low-scoring side, it puts a massive strain on the other end.
And we certainly can't afford to score three and still not win (eg; Brentford away). |  |
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| We're a long way from being relegated already on 09:07 - Dec 9 with 2052 views | Kev_W |
Agree with much of that analysis. I would add three things:
Tuanzebe is a huge loss whose presence would surely have helped yesterday
In the recent close games the other managers have had the know-how and players including subs to tweak their systems for the second half. McKenna has appeared less proactive with substitutions and with changes within games (sometimes but not always the lack of options on the bench). His dilemma has been whether to stick as we are when we are doing OK or to make a change. Yesterday exemplified that – Taylor and Morsy were playing reasonably well individually but as a unit were unable to prevent Bournemouth having too much possession in midfield. For once he had strong midfielders on the bench and the experience and abilities of Cajuste and Philips should have helped.
Our game management must improve and we do need the experienced players to step up in this respect. | | | |
| We're a long way from being relegated already on 09:11 - Dec 9 with 2026 views | hype313 |
Agree with most of that Steve, I can't see McKenna dropping Muric, especially as he is someone he specifically bought and had misgivings about Walton, and if we're honest players always look better when not playing and Walton isn't a step up, sideways at best.
Personally, I never thought we would survive, I just couldn't see where points would come, we had one window to transition from a League 1/Champ team and that just isn't enough time, we're victims of our own success unfortunately.
However, whatever happens, we're in a far better place that we have been in the past 20 years, so we have plenty to be thankful for and we're now realising how harsh the realities of top flight football are. |  |
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| We're a long way from being relegated already on 09:19 - Dec 9 with 1944 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
I said before the game that we would need 2 goals to get anything from the match. |  |
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| We're a long way from being relegated already on 09:26 - Dec 9 with 1904 views | Chrisd |
I like your optimism Steve, you make many valid points too in your post, but for me it’s been more recently with displays and results against sides in and around us and we’ve been a distant second best. Those are the games that will justify our season and we’ve fallen short every time. More worryingly, not even laying a glove on some of those sides.
If we are cut adrift come January, I’m not sure I see the merit in investing in the squad with permanent signings, it might simply be better to dip into the loan market. | |
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| We're a long way from being relegated already on 09:39 - Dec 9 with 1847 views | _clive_baker_ |
Struggle to share your optimism personally. I think we're competing well with what we've got, we're just short of a bit of quality in key areas. Injuries haven't helped of course up top, on the right, in the middle and at right back. We don't have anywhere near the depth required to deal with that and with the greatest will in the world when we're looking to a bench with Harry Clarke, Al-Hamadi, even Townsend, Luongo etc, these are players that wouldn't get near the squads of our opponents.
We're exceptionally well organised, fit, hard working, and I do think the sum is greater than the parts for the most part, but collectively the parts are just a level off it. We've struggled to create clear cut opportunities, especially in recent games, when we've carved out half chances we've not been clinical enough, certainly been a touch unlucky on a few decisions into the mix but ultimately come up short against better and more established premier league sides. It feels like we have to be at our very best and hope the opposition is off it by way of a leveller, such as against Villa, United and Spurs.
Current run rate has us finishing about where Burnley did, we might better it but I would say even 30 points would be a stretch from here which probably wont be enough. Its not for a lack of effort or tactical nous, its just a bit of a stretch too far quality wise IMO. |  | | |
| We're a long way from being relegated already on 09:43 - Dec 9 with 1800 views | reusersfreekicks |
| We're a long way from being relegated already on 09:39 - Dec 9 by _clive_baker_ |
Struggle to share your optimism personally. I think we're competing well with what we've got, we're just short of a bit of quality in key areas. Injuries haven't helped of course up top, on the right, in the middle and at right back. We don't have anywhere near the depth required to deal with that and with the greatest will in the world when we're looking to a bench with Harry Clarke, Al-Hamadi, even Townsend, Luongo etc, these are players that wouldn't get near the squads of our opponents.
We're exceptionally well organised, fit, hard working, and I do think the sum is greater than the parts for the most part, but collectively the parts are just a level off it. We've struggled to create clear cut opportunities, especially in recent games, when we've carved out half chances we've not been clinical enough, certainly been a touch unlucky on a few decisions into the mix but ultimately come up short against better and more established premier league sides. It feels like we have to be at our very best and hope the opposition is off it by way of a leveller, such as against Villa, United and Spurs.
Current run rate has us finishing about where Burnley did, we might better it but I would say even 30 points would be a stretch from here which probably wont be enough. Its not for a lack of effort or tactical nous, its just a bit of a stretch too far quality wise IMO. |
I agree we need our best players on the pitch and to be playing at their best to get something out of games.
And even then I don't think we have the subs to maintain this when people run out of team especially for the 3 behind the front player.
I think Hutchinson Chappers and Sammy are our best options there but J Clarke and Wes are way off what's required. Broadhead hasn't played enough to say one way or another |  | | |
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| We're a long way from being relegated already on 09:43 - Dec 9 with 1805 views | hype313 |
| We're a long way from being relegated already on 09:39 - Dec 9 by _clive_baker_ |
Struggle to share your optimism personally. I think we're competing well with what we've got, we're just short of a bit of quality in key areas. Injuries haven't helped of course up top, on the right, in the middle and at right back. We don't have anywhere near the depth required to deal with that and with the greatest will in the world when we're looking to a bench with Harry Clarke, Al-Hamadi, even Townsend, Luongo etc, these are players that wouldn't get near the squads of our opponents.
We're exceptionally well organised, fit, hard working, and I do think the sum is greater than the parts for the most part, but collectively the parts are just a level off it. We've struggled to create clear cut opportunities, especially in recent games, when we've carved out half chances we've not been clinical enough, certainly been a touch unlucky on a few decisions into the mix but ultimately come up short against better and more established premier league sides. It feels like we have to be at our very best and hope the opposition is off it by way of a leveller, such as against Villa, United and Spurs.
Current run rate has us finishing about where Burnley did, we might better it but I would say even 30 points would be a stretch from here which probably wont be enough. Its not for a lack of effort or tactical nous, its just a bit of a stretch too far quality wise IMO. |
Yep, I think the realisation has set in after this past week, some are apocalyptic, some are pragmatic, depending on your overall viewpoint.
Zero points against Forest, Palace and Bournemouth and scoring 1 goal speaks volumes, we have a competitive 11 for 65-70 minutes, by then they are cooked and we don't have the quality on the bench to come in and make a difference.
Every club has at least 1 X factor player that can change a game on a sixpence, we just don't have that, we're a well drilled, organised side that can be competitive to a point but just lack the strength in depth and quality. | |
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| We're a long way from being relegated already on 09:49 - Dec 9 with 1783 views | Illinoisblue |
I want to be optimistic and since the summer had thought we’d have a strong second half of the season which would see us to safety after players bedded in and got to grips with the prem. Seeing up close the last two games has been quite the reality check.
My concern is we seem to have bought a lot of players who are injured, unable to not be injured, or unable to play 90 minutes. Or make any impact on a game when they come on. (Looking directly at you Jack Clarke).
It is too early to write us off but we’re in a big hole. |  |
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| We're a long way from being relegated already on 09:55 - Dec 9 with 1750 views | _clive_baker_ |
| We're a long way from being relegated already on 09:43 - Dec 9 by hype313 |
Yep, I think the realisation has set in after this past week, some are apocalyptic, some are pragmatic, depending on your overall viewpoint.
Zero points against Forest, Palace and Bournemouth and scoring 1 goal speaks volumes, we have a competitive 11 for 65-70 minutes, by then they are cooked and we don't have the quality on the bench to come in and make a difference.
Every club has at least 1 X factor player that can change a game on a sixpence, we just don't have that, we're a well drilled, organised side that can be competitive to a point but just lack the strength in depth and quality. |
Such is the huge gap between the Championship and the premier league. The 'winnable' games this year would've been regarded as the absolute toughest games last year, and they're the supposed easier ones! Its a huge gap to close, and while people point to £100m its not a lot in the grand scheme of things. Its got us Muric, O'Shea, Greaves, Hutchinson, Szmodics, Clarke, Delap, Ogbene.
Its not all doom and gloom. Doesn't bode massively well for the next 6 months admittedly, but look at Burnley and Sheff United. We're probably comparable to them at the moment, they're currently 1st and 3rd in the Championship and only lost 4 games between them from 38. There's a huge gap between 1st - 15th in the pyramid and about 28th - 44th. We're sat in that 16th - 27th bucket right now, potentially towards the top of it, but that's only going to see you as PL relegation fodder or Championship auto contenders.
The absolute worst thing we can do as a fanbase is concluded McKenna is the problem. He's without doubt our best chance of bringing this group back up next season if relegation does prove to be our fate. [Post edited 9 Dec 2024 10:00]
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| We're a long way from being relegated already on 10:22 - Dec 9 with 1632 views | davblue |
I've thought since the Everton game that we've looked short, although we have improved again since then but i think it's just not going to be enough at this moment in time.
Need a good Jan, but again, struggling to see where we can strengthen within the limitations of spending.
GK, RB, RW or 10, ST. |  | | |
| We're a long way from being relegated already on 10:34 - Dec 9 with 1585 views | Steve_M |
| We're a long way from being relegated already on 09:39 - Dec 9 by _clive_baker_ |
Struggle to share your optimism personally. I think we're competing well with what we've got, we're just short of a bit of quality in key areas. Injuries haven't helped of course up top, on the right, in the middle and at right back. We don't have anywhere near the depth required to deal with that and with the greatest will in the world when we're looking to a bench with Harry Clarke, Al-Hamadi, even Townsend, Luongo etc, these are players that wouldn't get near the squads of our opponents.
We're exceptionally well organised, fit, hard working, and I do think the sum is greater than the parts for the most part, but collectively the parts are just a level off it. We've struggled to create clear cut opportunities, especially in recent games, when we've carved out half chances we've not been clinical enough, certainly been a touch unlucky on a few decisions into the mix but ultimately come up short against better and more established premier league sides. It feels like we have to be at our very best and hope the opposition is off it by way of a leveller, such as against Villa, United and Spurs.
Current run rate has us finishing about where Burnley did, we might better it but I would say even 30 points would be a stretch from here which probably wont be enough. Its not for a lack of effort or tactical nous, its just a bit of a stretch too far quality wise IMO. |
I'm not sure I'm that optimistic but do think that just a couple of better results would have had us in a much better position. Obviously, we can't keep saying that if we aren't winning games but, whilst we are definitely a bit short, we aren't quite adrift. | |
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| We're a long way from being relegated already on 10:38 - Dec 9 with 1563 views | Steve_M |
| We're a long way from being relegated already on 09:07 - Dec 9 by Kev_W |
Agree with much of that analysis. I would add three things:
Tuanzebe is a huge loss whose presence would surely have helped yesterday
In the recent close games the other managers have had the know-how and players including subs to tweak their systems for the second half. McKenna has appeared less proactive with substitutions and with changes within games (sometimes but not always the lack of options on the bench). His dilemma has been whether to stick as we are when we are doing OK or to make a change. Yesterday exemplified that – Taylor and Morsy were playing reasonably well individually but as a unit were unable to prevent Bournemouth having too much possession in midfield. For once he had strong midfielders on the bench and the experience and abilities of Cajuste and Philips should have helped.
Our game management must improve and we do need the experienced players to step up in this respect. |
Yes, agree on the game management part. Perhaps where McKenna has been most stretched magisterially since that run in early 2023 - and for the same reason that he doesn't have the experience to be totally confident in what to do next.
On the plus side, it may make Spurs hold off any interest given it seems a bit similar to Postacoglu's difficulties at the moment. | |
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| We're a long way from being relegated already on 12:25 - Dec 9 with 1428 views | The_Major |
I get the feeling we're like Bournemouth the first time they came up. Lots of endeavour, trying to do the right thing, but ultimately to no avail.
Sometimes with teams they have a one year stint in the Prem, go down, back up, and this time the experience helps the to stick around for several seasons. I seem to recall Burnley and West Brom going down that route in years gone by. You could argue Bournemouth are doing that now.
I do think the recruitment over the summer was with one eye on being a Championship powerhouse in 25/26 - but if we managed to stay up this season, then all good.
Suspect the speed of our ascent caught the club on the hop - it certainly did with the infrastructure changes, after all. [Post edited 9 Dec 2024 12:25]
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| We're a long way from being relegated already on 15:19 - Dec 9 with 1076 views | _clive_baker_ |
| We're a long way from being relegated already on 12:25 - Dec 9 by The_Major |
I get the feeling we're like Bournemouth the first time they came up. Lots of endeavour, trying to do the right thing, but ultimately to no avail.
Sometimes with teams they have a one year stint in the Prem, go down, back up, and this time the experience helps the to stick around for several seasons. I seem to recall Burnley and West Brom going down that route in years gone by. You could argue Bournemouth are doing that now.
I do think the recruitment over the summer was with one eye on being a Championship powerhouse in 25/26 - but if we managed to stay up this season, then all good.
Suspect the speed of our ascent caught the club on the hop - it certainly did with the infrastructure changes, after all. [Post edited 9 Dec 2024 12:25]
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Absolutely right. Progressing to be an established premier league club is rarely linear. There's always been every chance we don't stay up this season but we build solid foundations to push back and start from a higher base next time around, as you say most of our recruitment has been consistent with that. Not least from a budget perspective, if we have this seasons PL money, next seasons parachute money and IF we came back, that would be a damn sight easier to build off than having L1 revenues in the 3 year books.
That's not to say we all resign ourselves to it and its a lack of ambition, but people really need to get the balance between ambition and realism. | | | |
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