| Many Clouds 14:37 - Jan 28 with 9201 views | Johnhoz |
I'm not a huge racing fan, but that is so sad after such an amzing finish. Poor thing collapsed and died just after the finish
[Post edited 28 Jan 2017 14:52]
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| Many Clouds on 04:48 - Jan 29 with 2275 views | Ryorry |
| Many Clouds on 04:32 - Jan 29 by RoyKeanesDog |
I appreciate that often add good contributions to threads Ryorry, and generally open your mind to see other people's views - but I can't see why you can't accept the overwhelming negatives to this sport.
How can this be justified?
http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/
I am genuinely asking. If I hear a valid reason for it I will change my mind, but I can't live with myself if I say it's okay to allow horses to die unnecessarily every other day just for people's entertainment. |
I am up only briefly to get myself & mutt quick bite to eat and a pee & then we will both be going back to sleep, so pls forgive the brief response, but do you realise that your conclusion to your "in-depth research" (couple of hours or so?) in your efforts to prevent the deaths of racehorses, would mean - the immediate, deliberate killing of over 10,000 racehorses?! As there are maybe around 14,000 in training in the UK and another 6,000 "in the pipeline" (either yearlings not yet raced, or foetuses about to be born between now and April), and it would be impossible to find homes for more than a few of them so quickly.
And they are not "dying unnecessarily every other day just for our entertainment" - UK horse racing brings £3.45 billion, and provides c. 85,000 jobs for the UK economy annually, as I pointed out earlier. The deaths are sad accidents, unlike animals bred deliberately for meat. |  |
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| Many Clouds on 04:59 - Jan 29 with 2260 views | RoyKeanesDog |
| Many Clouds on 04:48 - Jan 29 by Ryorry |
I am up only briefly to get myself & mutt quick bite to eat and a pee & then we will both be going back to sleep, so pls forgive the brief response, but do you realise that your conclusion to your "in-depth research" (couple of hours or so?) in your efforts to prevent the deaths of racehorses, would mean - the immediate, deliberate killing of over 10,000 racehorses?! As there are maybe around 14,000 in training in the UK and another 6,000 "in the pipeline" (either yearlings not yet raced, or foetuses about to be born between now and April), and it would be impossible to find homes for more than a few of them so quickly.
And they are not "dying unnecessarily every other day just for our entertainment" - UK horse racing brings £3.45 billion, and provides c. 85,000 jobs for the UK economy annually, as I pointed out earlier. The deaths are sad accidents, unlike animals bred deliberately for meat. |
So the owners of the horses would no longer have any desire to home these horses now they are no longer able to profit from them?
I'm sorry that I'm not fond of 85,000 people gambling the lives of animals unnecessarily to get ahead in life.
Animals bred for meat are not exposed to continuous whipping, and they die as humanely as possible for sustenance, not entertainment. |  |
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| Many Clouds on 05:18 - Jan 29 with 2252 views | Ryorry |
| Many Clouds on 04:59 - Jan 29 by RoyKeanesDog |
So the owners of the horses would no longer have any desire to home these horses now they are no longer able to profit from them?
I'm sorry that I'm not fond of 85,000 people gambling the lives of animals unnecessarily to get ahead in life.
Animals bred for meat are not exposed to continuous whipping, and they die as humanely as possible for sustenance, not entertainment. |
There is really no point in debating with you at all when you deliberately refuse to read anything written before (the Guardian article on the whipping being completely painless even on the palm of a human eg), totally distort the facts ("85,000 people gambling the lives of animals unnecessarily to get ahead in life"), and generally provide a good lesson into how "a little learning is a dangerous thing".
"So the owners of the horses would no longer have any desire to home these horses now they are no longer able to profit from them? "
What total rubbish, I said no such thing. Previous experience is that horses can be found *suitable* (experienced in care, with good facilities) homes bit by bit. If you 'flood the market' there's no hope of finding homes for that many, however desperately you may try. You really are very ignorant (in the literal sense of the word) of the facts.
When you said you were going away to do some research, I said "good", because I thought you were going to do it properly, not have a quick skim for a couple of hours or less. I've seen racing from the inside for over 10 years and am critical of certain aspects of it, but pah, what's that in comparison to your approach, hey.
Edit: and whilst I was replying to you, I left the kitchen door unfastened, and the mutt got in & has eaten my food, in addition to having demolished his own earlier!! [Post edited 29 Jan 2017 5:26]
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| Many Clouds on 05:23 - Jan 29 with 2242 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Many Clouds on 05:18 - Jan 29 by Ryorry |
There is really no point in debating with you at all when you deliberately refuse to read anything written before (the Guardian article on the whipping being completely painless even on the palm of a human eg), totally distort the facts ("85,000 people gambling the lives of animals unnecessarily to get ahead in life"), and generally provide a good lesson into how "a little learning is a dangerous thing".
"So the owners of the horses would no longer have any desire to home these horses now they are no longer able to profit from them? "
What total rubbish, I said no such thing. Previous experience is that horses can be found *suitable* (experienced in care, with good facilities) homes bit by bit. If you 'flood the market' there's no hope of finding homes for that many, however desperately you may try. You really are very ignorant (in the literal sense of the word) of the facts.
When you said you were going away to do some research, I said "good", because I thought you were going to do it properly, not have a quick skim for a couple of hours or less. I've seen racing from the inside for over 10 years and am critical of certain aspects of it, but pah, what's that in comparison to your approach, hey.
Edit: and whilst I was replying to you, I left the kitchen door unfastened, and the mutt got in & has eaten my food, in addition to having demolished his own earlier!! [Post edited 29 Jan 2017 5:26]
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I note with interest that you and Rommers are still avoiding commenting on the horsedeathwatch website. |  |
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| Many Clouds on 05:27 - Jan 29 with 2240 views | Ryorry |
| Many Clouds on 05:23 - Jan 29 by Dolly2.0 |
I note with interest that you and Rommers are still avoiding commenting on the horsedeathwatch website. |
I have already commented on it. Rest my case about people not reading earlier stuff.
Goodnight. | |
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| Many Clouds on 05:38 - Jan 29 with 2228 views | RoyKeanesDog |
| Many Clouds on 05:18 - Jan 29 by Ryorry |
There is really no point in debating with you at all when you deliberately refuse to read anything written before (the Guardian article on the whipping being completely painless even on the palm of a human eg), totally distort the facts ("85,000 people gambling the lives of animals unnecessarily to get ahead in life"), and generally provide a good lesson into how "a little learning is a dangerous thing".
"So the owners of the horses would no longer have any desire to home these horses now they are no longer able to profit from them? "
What total rubbish, I said no such thing. Previous experience is that horses can be found *suitable* (experienced in care, with good facilities) homes bit by bit. If you 'flood the market' there's no hope of finding homes for that many, however desperately you may try. You really are very ignorant (in the literal sense of the word) of the facts.
When you said you were going away to do some research, I said "good", because I thought you were going to do it properly, not have a quick skim for a couple of hours or less. I've seen racing from the inside for over 10 years and am critical of certain aspects of it, but pah, what's that in comparison to your approach, hey.
Edit: and whilst I was replying to you, I left the kitchen door unfastened, and the mutt got in & has eaten my food, in addition to having demolished his own earlier!! [Post edited 29 Jan 2017 5:26]
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What were you eating? | |
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| Many Clouds on 05:38 - Jan 29 with 2228 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Many Clouds on 05:27 - Jan 29 by Ryorry |
I have already commented on it. Rest my case about people not reading earlier stuff.
Goodnight. |
I've read this thread very closely and I can't see where you've directly commented on that website. Apologies if I've somehow missed it. | |
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| Many Clouds on 05:42 - Jan 29 with 2217 views | RoyKeanesDog |
| Many Clouds on 05:38 - Jan 29 by Dolly2.0 |
I've read this thread very closely and I can't see where you've directly commented on that website. Apologies if I've somehow missed it. |
A couple of posts up from this.
"sad accidents" was the answer. | |
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| Many Clouds on 06:50 - Jan 29 with 2188 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Many Clouds on 05:42 - Jan 29 by RoyKeanesDog |
A couple of posts up from this.
"sad accidents" was the answer. |
She doesn't mention the website at all | |
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| Many Clouds on 08:21 - Jan 29 with 2138 views | Benters |
| Many Clouds on 06:50 - Jan 29 by Dolly2.0 |
She doesn't mention the website at all |
Its the easy way out. |  |
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| Many Clouds on 12:26 - Jan 29 with 2096 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Many Clouds on 05:23 - Jan 29 by Dolly2.0 |
I note with interest that you and Rommers are still avoiding commenting on the horsedeathwatch website. |
Not commenting on these threads anymore as of yesterday afternoon. Advised by somebody on here funnily enough.
There's people in this thread that have believed information that is blatantly not true:
- The whip hurting. It doesn't. Have a feel if you get the chance.
- Horses not wanting to race. It's their nature. They are pulling as they see other horses. You'll notice that when a jockey unseats, the horse continues all the way round until the other horses have stopped.
- That when they finish racing, they are killed into food. Blatant lie.
I could go on. But I won't. |  |
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| Many Clouds on 13:04 - Jan 29 with 2076 views | J2BLUE |
| Many Clouds on 12:26 - Jan 29 by The_Romford_Blue |
Not commenting on these threads anymore as of yesterday afternoon. Advised by somebody on here funnily enough.
There's people in this thread that have believed information that is blatantly not true:
- The whip hurting. It doesn't. Have a feel if you get the chance.
- Horses not wanting to race. It's their nature. They are pulling as they see other horses. You'll notice that when a jockey unseats, the horse continues all the way round until the other horses have stopped.
- That when they finish racing, they are killed into food. Blatant lie.
I could go on. But I won't. |
- Horses not wanting to race. It's their nature. They are pulling as they see other horses. You'll notice that when a jockey unseats, the horse continues all the way round until the other horses have stopped.
I was going to make that point as I remember seeing it during races. One point I would ask (as I have no idea and am genuinely asking not having a veiled dig) is whether horses run outside the track to avoid the jumps? Obviously some don't but in many of the races i've seen they tend to get outside the main track and run along without the jumps. Is that something which happens regularly or just a coincidence that i've seen it?
Another thing to consider is if there is any 'wild' instinct about keeping up with the other horses. If the horse knew it would end up back with the rest of them if it ran or not would it bother to run?
On the whole I do actually agree with you based on my limited knowledge. I'm sure most horses love getting out and having a run about and watching winners being paraded at the big festivals it really does look as if they're loving every second of it most of the time. As for the care they get at the stables they always talk to the people responsible for looking after them at Cheltenham and it's clear the love they have for the horses they care for. |  |
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| Many Clouds on 13:05 - Jan 29 with 2063 views | Benters |
| Many Clouds on 12:26 - Jan 29 by The_Romford_Blue |
Not commenting on these threads anymore as of yesterday afternoon. Advised by somebody on here funnily enough.
There's people in this thread that have believed information that is blatantly not true:
- The whip hurting. It doesn't. Have a feel if you get the chance.
- Horses not wanting to race. It's their nature. They are pulling as they see other horses. You'll notice that when a jockey unseats, the horse continues all the way round until the other horses have stopped.
- That when they finish racing, they are killed into food. Blatant lie.
I could go on. But I won't. |
The whip does hurt .
My Great Grandfather worked the land with shire horses
My good lady had her own stables and kept up to 25 horses in those said stables.
My Neice is a manager of a riding school.
My family have kept horses for years .
Believe me the whip does hurt.
The End. | |
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| Many Clouds on 13:08 - Jan 29 with 2059 views | J2BLUE |
| Many Clouds on 13:05 - Jan 29 by Benters |
The whip does hurt .
My Great Grandfather worked the land with shire horses
My good lady had her own stables and kept up to 25 horses in those said stables.
My Neice is a manager of a riding school.
My family have kept horses for years .
Believe me the whip does hurt.
The End. |
Have you checked that it's the same type of whip as used professionally?
Another question to racing fans if they don't mind...if the whip really doesn't hurt then why are jockey's punished for excessive use? | |
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| Many Clouds on 13:25 - Jan 29 with 2033 views | strikalite |
| Many Clouds on 13:05 - Jan 29 by Benters |
The whip does hurt .
My Great Grandfather worked the land with shire horses
My good lady had her own stables and kept up to 25 horses in those said stables.
My Neice is a manager of a riding school.
My family have kept horses for years .
Believe me the whip does hurt.
The End. |
When a horse is on a home straight with body temp very high and adrenaline rushing through them it wouldn't feel anything like how you'd imagine, if it didn't encourage a horse towards the end of a race then the horse would pull up and wouldn't except it..
It does look bad I know but the truth is they wouldn't feel it like you think, bit like slapping a boxer on the back as he goes out for the last round, he's focused so much and pumped up that he'd hardly feel it, certainly wouldn't hurt like you think.. |  | | |
| Many Clouds on 13:26 - Jan 29 with 2047 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Many Clouds on 13:05 - Jan 29 by Benters |
The whip does hurt .
My Great Grandfather worked the land with shire horses
My good lady had her own stables and kept up to 25 horses in those said stables.
My Neice is a manager of a riding school.
My family have kept horses for years .
Believe me the whip does hurt.
The End. |
That isn't a racing whip though Benters
I've felt a racing whip and I promise it doesn't hurt. Journalists have been given the opportunity to feel a racing whip hit at full pelt by a jockey and they've said it doesn't hurt.
You can say The End all you like but it isn't. You are wrong on this point | |
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| Many Clouds on 13:33 - Jan 29 with 2028 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Many Clouds on 13:08 - Jan 29 by J2BLUE |
Have you checked that it's the same type of whip as used professionally?
Another question to racing fans if they don't mind...if the whip really doesn't hurt then why are jockey's punished for excessive use? |
They are punished because of the image it portrays to keep hitting the horse.
I know it doesn't hurt. Jockeys know it doesn't hurt. Proper racing fans know it doesn't hurt. But this thread proves that some believe it does without knowing.
As for benters' point, it would be a different whip. All the people mentioned by benters wouldn't have a racing whip. A racing whip is only given to jockeys when they are given their racing license. Unless they are professional racing jockeys (or for some amateur races), they wouldn't be allowed a racing whip. I was fortunate enough to get the chance to feel a racing whip a few years ago but many on here wouldn't have.
As for your point about loose horses that jump away from the fences sometimes, that's by course design. That's 100% deliberate by the tracks. Like in formula 1 there is a run off area, that's the case for loose horses to carry on running without getting in the way of those still racing. Sometimes the horses are so transfixed in winning even without a jockey, that they continue jumping the fences which gets in the way somewhat. In the grand national a couple of years ago a lose horse carried the leader off the track halfway round. | |
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| Many Clouds on 14:03 - Jan 29 with 1993 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Many Clouds on 13:33 - Jan 29 by The_Romford_Blue |
They are punished because of the image it portrays to keep hitting the horse.
I know it doesn't hurt. Jockeys know it doesn't hurt. Proper racing fans know it doesn't hurt. But this thread proves that some believe it does without knowing.
As for benters' point, it would be a different whip. All the people mentioned by benters wouldn't have a racing whip. A racing whip is only given to jockeys when they are given their racing license. Unless they are professional racing jockeys (or for some amateur races), they wouldn't be allowed a racing whip. I was fortunate enough to get the chance to feel a racing whip a few years ago but many on here wouldn't have.
As for your point about loose horses that jump away from the fences sometimes, that's by course design. That's 100% deliberate by the tracks. Like in formula 1 there is a run off area, that's the case for loose horses to carry on running without getting in the way of those still racing. Sometimes the horses are so transfixed in winning even without a jockey, that they continue jumping the fences which gets in the way somewhat. In the grand national a couple of years ago a lose horse carried the leader off the track halfway round. |
Not having a go but you're doing a lot of commenting for someone who isn't commenting on this thread anymore. And you continue to avoid the uncomfortable truth of the horsedeathwatch website.
If you just ignore it does that mean it's not happening? | |
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| Many Clouds on 14:08 - Jan 29 with 1981 views | eireblue |
| Many Clouds on 13:33 - Jan 29 by The_Romford_Blue |
They are punished because of the image it portrays to keep hitting the horse.
I know it doesn't hurt. Jockeys know it doesn't hurt. Proper racing fans know it doesn't hurt. But this thread proves that some believe it does without knowing.
As for benters' point, it would be a different whip. All the people mentioned by benters wouldn't have a racing whip. A racing whip is only given to jockeys when they are given their racing license. Unless they are professional racing jockeys (or for some amateur races), they wouldn't be allowed a racing whip. I was fortunate enough to get the chance to feel a racing whip a few years ago but many on here wouldn't have.
As for your point about loose horses that jump away from the fences sometimes, that's by course design. That's 100% deliberate by the tracks. Like in formula 1 there is a run off area, that's the case for loose horses to carry on running without getting in the way of those still racing. Sometimes the horses are so transfixed in winning even without a jockey, that they continue jumping the fences which gets in the way somewhat. In the grand national a couple of years ago a lose horse carried the leader off the track halfway round. |
The issue is, does the use of the whip make the horse perform, and does it affect the result of the race? |  | | |
| Many Clouds on 14:11 - Jan 29 with 1977 views | Ryorry |
| Many Clouds on 05:38 - Jan 29 by Dolly2.0 |
I've read this thread very closely and I can't see where you've directly commented on that website. Apologies if I've somehow missed it. |
It may be on the other thread which has now dropped to the next page, but in any case, I have now spent 7 (seven) hours posting up facts, rational debate, evidence and links on all of this, including *twice* links to the Guardian article which proves that the modern racing whip does not hurt even the bare palm of a human when struck with full force in cold blood, never mind the thick hide of an animal in full adrenalin-fuelled flight - yet not only do *none* of you protesters refer to that link directly, or the others that I've posted up - some of you (RKD, Benters e.g.) even blatantly ignore it & continue spouting the same old lies, propaganda & myths about the use of the whip in horseracing being painful and cruel. So I don't know why it's somehow a requirement that only I should *specifically* refer to a thread when I've taken the trouble to reference it generally as part of the discussion anyway; your double standards there are a bit breathtaking. Clearly, myself, Rommy etc are wasting our time.
Oh, and RKD - if you think animals slaughtered for food in the UK are all dispatched humanely, try doing some googling on UK slaughterhouses. | |
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| Many Clouds on 14:12 - Jan 29 with 1967 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Many Clouds on 14:03 - Jan 29 by Dolly2.0 |
Not having a go but you're doing a lot of commenting for someone who isn't commenting on this thread anymore. And you continue to avoid the uncomfortable truth of the horsedeathwatch website.
If you just ignore it does that mean it's not happening? |
What do you want me to say about it?
Horses die in racing. The percentage of deaths is tiny. That number isn't acceptable. However, it's still a tiny percentage.
That's all I'll say.
I won't click on that website as some of the info from there is probably dodgy. I've had people come to me with info on the greyhound one and I know for a fact it's exaggerated on the numbers and incorrect. People believe that info though as its suits there argument. | |
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| Many Clouds on 14:15 - Jan 29 with 1960 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Many Clouds on 14:11 - Jan 29 by Ryorry |
It may be on the other thread which has now dropped to the next page, but in any case, I have now spent 7 (seven) hours posting up facts, rational debate, evidence and links on all of this, including *twice* links to the Guardian article which proves that the modern racing whip does not hurt even the bare palm of a human when struck with full force in cold blood, never mind the thick hide of an animal in full adrenalin-fuelled flight - yet not only do *none* of you protesters refer to that link directly, or the others that I've posted up - some of you (RKD, Benters e.g.) even blatantly ignore it & continue spouting the same old lies, propaganda & myths about the use of the whip in horseracing being painful and cruel. So I don't know why it's somehow a requirement that only I should *specifically* refer to a thread when I've taken the trouble to reference it generally as part of the discussion anyway; your double standards there are a bit breathtaking. Clearly, myself, Rommy etc are wasting our time.
Oh, and RKD - if you think animals slaughtered for food in the UK are all dispatched humanely, try doing some googling on UK slaughterhouses. |
RKD is a bit stressed right now and hasn't slept in 48 hours as he can't get hold of Lucan.
I'm 100% sure he would think differently if you ask him his thoughts in a few days R
Edit - and good news is Lucan got home a little while ago [Post edited 29 Jan 2017 14:16]
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| Many Clouds on 14:17 - Jan 29 with 1955 views | Ryorry |
| Many Clouds on 06:50 - Jan 29 by Dolly2.0 |
She doesn't mention the website at all |
Re-posted as my original was in reply to wrong post.
It may be on the other thread which has now dropped to the next page, but in any case, I have now spent 7 (seven) hours posting up facts, rational debate, evidence and links on all of this, including *twice* links to the Guardian article which proves that the modern racing whip does not hurt even the bare palm of a human when struck with full force in cold blood, never mind the thick hide of an animal in full adrenalin-fuelled flight - yet not only do *none* of you protesters refer to that link directly, or the others that I've posted up - some of you (RKD, Benters e.g.) even blatantly ignore it & continue spouting the same old lies, propaganda & myths about the use of the whip in horseracing being painful and cruel.
So I don't know why it's somehow a requirement that only I should *specifically* refer to a thread when I've taken the trouble to reference it generally as part of the discussion anyway; your double standards there are a bit breathtaking. Clearly, myself, Rommy etc are wasting our time.
Oh, and RKD - if you think animals slaughtered for food in the UK are all dispatched humanely, try doing some googling on UK slaughterhouses. | |
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| Many Clouds on 15:41 - Jan 29 with 1917 views | RoyKeanesDog |
| Many Clouds on 14:15 - Jan 29 by The_Romford_Blue |
RKD is a bit stressed right now and hasn't slept in 48 hours as he can't get hold of Lucan.
I'm 100% sure he would think differently if you ask him his thoughts in a few days R
Edit - and good news is Lucan got home a little while ago [Post edited 29 Jan 2017 14:16]
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Aye, I'll put my hands up and say I was playing Devil's Advocate to some extent last night in a bid to keep me awake during the graveyard hours.
I think I am against horse racing if I had to make a decision, but if I'm brutally honest, I couldn't care less. | |
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| Many Clouds on 15:50 - Jan 29 with 1895 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Many Clouds on 14:17 - Jan 29 by Ryorry |
Re-posted as my original was in reply to wrong post.
It may be on the other thread which has now dropped to the next page, but in any case, I have now spent 7 (seven) hours posting up facts, rational debate, evidence and links on all of this, including *twice* links to the Guardian article which proves that the modern racing whip does not hurt even the bare palm of a human when struck with full force in cold blood, never mind the thick hide of an animal in full adrenalin-fuelled flight - yet not only do *none* of you protesters refer to that link directly, or the others that I've posted up - some of you (RKD, Benters e.g.) even blatantly ignore it & continue spouting the same old lies, propaganda & myths about the use of the whip in horseracing being painful and cruel.
So I don't know why it's somehow a requirement that only I should *specifically* refer to a thread when I've taken the trouble to reference it generally as part of the discussion anyway; your double standards there are a bit breathtaking. Clearly, myself, Rommy etc are wasting our time.
Oh, and RKD - if you think animals slaughtered for food in the UK are all dispatched humanely, try doing some googling on UK slaughterhouses. |
I've not commented on the whip. I trust your explanation on that.
I do think it's horrific so many horses are dying in the name of entertainment though, as that website so brutally illustrates. | |
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