| What Trump's "America First" really means 09:18 - Dec 7 with 7721 views | Guthrum |
Everything, including US foreign policy, will be subordinated to playing to his domestic audience. Never mind if it stuffs up the rest of the world, or even the efforts of his own State Department, as long as it panders to the attitudes of his baying supporters at home.
Take the Jerusalem issue. Largely an empty gesture, liable to cause great trouble (there's a good chance people will die today during the protests), doesn't particularly serve American interests in the region, but pleases the millennialist lobby in the USA.
Or the spat with Theresa May. Completely pointless.
Nothing Trump says about international affairs (including North Korea, Iran, etc.) Is speaking outwards, to the world. It is all naerowly to polish (as he sees it) his domestic reputation.
Edit: Whoops, posted in wrong category. [Post edited 7 Dec 2017 9:19]
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| What Trump's "America First" really means on 11:57 - Dec 7 with 3252 views | Pinewoodblue |
Trump is one year into a four year re election campaign. The only thing that will stop it is a disasterous mid term election next November. |  |
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| What Trump's "America First" really means on 12:02 - Dec 7 with 3240 views | Guthrum |
| What Trump's "America First" really means on 11:41 - Dec 7 by connorscontract |
Iran-Contra was also in a feedback loop with the "War on Drugs" policy pushed by Nancy Reagan, and created a whole protected class of hard-core high level cartels. Very bizarre muddled policy, bordering on the schizophrenic.
I'm using it as an example of unilateral Americanism, without reference to allies, and with a failure to understand the longer term ramifications of the policy. |
But it related to a real outside situation, an unfriendly, Cuban-supported left-wing government in Nicaragua. Not internal presidential prestige issues. | |
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| What Trump's "America First" really means on 12:05 - Dec 7 with 3233 views | Guthrum |
| What Trump's "America First" really means on 11:48 - Dec 7 by connorscontract |
But Obama did go "soft" on Iran, Iranian leadership then became the decisive cohesive factor in the push back of Daesh.
Because Trump hates "soft" he has royally screwed up what was a decent Foreign Policy win fir the US, and a potential big player in stabilising the Middle East has now been left feeling used and betrayed. |
The other significant power in the region being Saudi, whom Trump has now just kicked in the teeth as well. | |
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| What Trump's "America First" really means on 12:07 - Dec 7 with 3229 views | Swansea_Blue |
| What Trump's "America First" really means on 09:43 - Dec 7 by DanTheMan |
Which Trump has continued to do despite criticising Obama for it.
We just don't hear about it as much. |
Civilian casualties have rocketed* under Trump apparently. But then it's really hard to (a) verify and (b) know who to believe/trust as the issue is so politicised. But an NGO called Airwars say his bombings are as bad as anything previously seen in current conflicts like Syria.
*No pun intended |  |
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| What Trump's "America First" really means on 12:16 - Dec 7 with 3217 views | chicoazul |
| What Trump's "America First" really means on 11:53 - Dec 7 by Guthrum |
Softly softly has at least kept a lid on the situation, even resulted in talks and concessions in the past. What has Trump's "nasty" approach achieved? NK racing to develop and test weapons systems rather than holding them as bargaining chips, increased belligerent rhetoric, fear and uncertainty in the region, China's hand strengthened in exchange for nominal sanctions, that's what.
And eventually the only options left will be climbdown or military action, with the likelihood of death and destruction. Which do you think Trump will prefer? |
You're now blaming Trump for NK's weapons programme. |  |
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| What Trump's "America First" really means on 12:27 - Dec 7 with 3203 views | Ryorry |
He, Kim J U are possibly the two most dangerous people on the planet right now, but trumping all that (sorry) is that they, and all the leaders of all the 'countries' on it are just jaw-droppingly stupid. 'Countries' need to wake up and realise that the main threat to them all is our destruction of the ground that we're all stood on, the water and air that humankind needs to survive, irrespective of borders.
But that would mean common sense, literally - all coming together in unity instead of persisting with the current drive of selfishness, greed, fear and war, so I don't hold out much hope. |  |
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| What Trump's "America First" really means on 13:03 - Dec 7 with 3184 views | Bluesquid |
"baying supporters at home"
I think we can safely say that he has quite a few baying supporters in the ME.
If you look at the latest episode with Michael Flynn -
"Mr. Mueller’s investigators have learned through witnesses and documents that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel asked the Trump transition team to lobby other countries to help Israel, according to two people briefed on the inquiry. Investigators have learned that Mr. Flynn and Mr. Kushner took the lead in those efforts."
And it's even clearer after this latest decision regarding Jerusalem. |  | | |
| What Trump's "America First" really means on 13:06 - Dec 7 with 3179 views | Bluesquid |
| What Trump's "America First" really means on 09:56 - Dec 7 by Guthrum |
You're missing my point. Which is that the sole driver of Trump's foreign policy is short-term domestic acclaim. There is no consideration of worldwide benefits, alliances or even if it works.
It's not entirely random, but it is dangerous. Trying to look tough on Korea or Iran could easily lead to conflict. Playing to the gallery on Israel causing trouble in the Middle East. |
Utter rubbish and you know it. It's for the lobbyists. | | | |
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| What Trump's on 13:31 - Dec 7 with 3153 views | Guthrum |
| What Trump's "America First" really means on 12:16 - Dec 7 by chicoazul |
You're now blaming Trump for NK's weapons programme. |
Have you not noticed the ramped-up testing of long-range missiles?
I don't believe NK yet has a working system capable of accurately delivering a large warhead, but they're clearly now going flat out to get one.
And has Trump's diplomacy halted or slowed nuclear testing? [Post edited 7 Dec 2017 13:32]
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| What Trump's "America First" really means on 13:44 - Dec 7 with 3100 views | caught-in-limbo |
| What Trump's "America First" really means on 11:53 - Dec 7 by Guthrum |
Softly softly has at least kept a lid on the situation, even resulted in talks and concessions in the past. What has Trump's "nasty" approach achieved? NK racing to develop and test weapons systems rather than holding them as bargaining chips, increased belligerent rhetoric, fear and uncertainty in the region, China's hand strengthened in exchange for nominal sanctions, that's what.
And eventually the only options left will be climbdown or military action, with the likelihood of death and destruction. Which do you think Trump will prefer? |
Why do you think climbdown or military action are the only options?
The most likely action for me is the one which has persisted in the recent past which is war of words, followed by NK's annual weapons testing on one side and joint SK military exercises with the US or Japan on the other - then fizzling away again until the cycle starts again in March with the US's annual defence budget review. |  |
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| What Trump's "America First" really means on 11:30 - Dec 9 with 3022 views | Bluesquid |
| What Trump's "America First" really means on 13:06 - Dec 7 by Bluesquid |
Utter rubbish and you know it. It's for the lobbyists. |
"Trump’s campaign has received substantial funding from the Christian right and also hardline American Jewish promoters of Israel. They include Sheldon Adelson, the casino billionaire and Republican donor, who had given $20m (£14.9m) to a PAC (political action committee) which supported the Trump campaign and another $1.5m to the organisers of the Republican convention. Adelson has been lobbying the President persistently on the embassy transfer."
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jerusalem-donald-trump-israel-capital-decisi | | | |
| What Trump's "America First" really means on 12:08 - Dec 9 with 2996 views | Darth_Koont |
| What Trump's "America First" really means on 09:42 - Dec 7 by connorscontract |
I largely agree with you but would point to the Contra affair and the Gulf War as two bizarre foreign policy excursions which are fairly hard to read as anything other than over-meddling for the sake of who knows what in the Contra case and leading most of their Allies into war to restore national pride post-9/11 in the other. Or maybe both were to do with dodgy figures in the shadows making lots of money.
Reagan's foray into Grenada was also a little Trumpesque. |
The Contra stuff was ideological - a throwback to the domino thinking that got the US bogged down in Vietnam and propping up an awful regime.
The Gulf war was also a sphere of influence move. It came a couple of years after the gassing of the Kurds in Halabja when the US could have legitimately got involved but didn't because Saddam Hussein was serving a purpose for their interests at the time.
I agree that they were definitely over-meddling but there at least seemed to be justification in their narrow, self-interested world view. I think Guthers is right that with Trump it's not about a world view but all about playing to the domestic audience. |  |
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| What Trump's "America First" really means on 12:16 - Dec 9 with 2989 views | Bluesquid |
| What Trump's "America First" really means on 12:08 - Dec 9 by Darth_Koont |
The Contra stuff was ideological - a throwback to the domino thinking that got the US bogged down in Vietnam and propping up an awful regime.
The Gulf war was also a sphere of influence move. It came a couple of years after the gassing of the Kurds in Halabja when the US could have legitimately got involved but didn't because Saddam Hussein was serving a purpose for their interests at the time.
I agree that they were definitely over-meddling but there at least seemed to be justification in their narrow, self-interested world view. I think Guthers is right that with Trump it's not about a world view but all about playing to the domestic audience. |
Did you read my post?
"...substantial funding from the Christian right and also hardline American Jewish promoters of Israel...$20m...Adelson has been lobbying the President persistently on the embassy transfer."
He's doing it for the lobbyists. | | | |
| What Trump's "America First" really means on 12:28 - Dec 9 with 2977 views | Darth_Koont |
| What Trump's "America First" really means on 12:16 - Dec 9 by Bluesquid |
Did you read my post?
"...substantial funding from the Christian right and also hardline American Jewish promoters of Israel...$20m...Adelson has been lobbying the President persistently on the embassy transfer."
He's doing it for the lobbyists. |
I agree but they're not mutually exclusive.
The question is would he do it for lobbyists even if it played worse to his core audience? | |
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| What Trump's on 12:36 - Dec 9 with 2969 views | Bluesquid |
| What Trump's "America First" really means on 12:28 - Dec 9 by Darth_Koont |
I agree but they're not mutually exclusive.
The question is would he do it for lobbyists even if it played worse to his core audience? |
His core audience?
Well according to the article a survey found that the embassy move has only got the backing of about 31 per cent.
So im not sure what audience he's playing for there.
"The decision to move the embassy does not actually have much popular support across the US population as a whole. A Brookings Institution survey found that it has the backing of only 31 per cent." | | | |
| What Trump's on 12:40 - Dec 9 with 2963 views | Darth_Koont |
| What Trump's on 12:36 - Dec 9 by Bluesquid |
His core audience?
Well according to the article a survey found that the embassy move has only got the backing of about 31 per cent.
So im not sure what audience he's playing for there.
"The decision to move the embassy does not actually have much popular support across the US population as a whole. A Brookings Institution survey found that it has the backing of only 31 per cent." |
That 31% is who exactly? It's a move that plays to Christian conservatives almost as much as Jewish conservatives. | |
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| What Trump's on 14:43 - Dec 9 with 2924 views | Bluesquid |
| What Trump's on 12:40 - Dec 9 by Darth_Koont |
That 31% is who exactly? It's a move that plays to Christian conservatives almost as much as Jewish conservatives. |
Well i believe his core audience are in fact extremely wealthy organisations that have lobbied the Trump administration in order to influence foreign policy.
They succeeded.
And not a Russian in sight i might add. | | | |
| What Trump's on 15:39 - Dec 9 with 2908 views | Bluesquid |
Rinse and repeat...
"Trump’s campaign has received substantial funding from the Christian right and also hardline American Jewish promoters of Israel. They include Sheldon Adelson, the casino billionaire and Republican donor, who had given $20m (£14.9m) to a PAC (political action committee) which supported the Trump campaign and another $1.5m to the organisers of the Republican convention. Adelson has been lobbying the President persistently on the embassy transfer." | | | |
| What Trump's "America First" really means on 15:47 - Dec 9 with 2903 views | Swansea_Blue |
Also not forgetting that whilst we are looking at Jerusalem, he's spent the week dismantling National Monuments. He's cut protected areas by up to 85% to allow loggers and ranchers to expand into areas of environmental, cultural and social importance (e.g. these affect native American lands and rights of usage).
There's hardly a ripple over it because of the outrage he's deliberately generated with the Jerusalem issue. | |
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| What Trump's on 15:49 - Dec 9 with 2898 views | Darth_Koont |
| What Trump's on 15:39 - Dec 9 by Bluesquid |
Rinse and repeat...
"Trump’s campaign has received substantial funding from the Christian right and also hardline American Jewish promoters of Israel. They include Sheldon Adelson, the casino billionaire and Republican donor, who had given $20m (£14.9m) to a PAC (political action committee) which supported the Trump campaign and another $1.5m to the organisers of the Republican convention. Adelson has been lobbying the President persistently on the embassy transfer." |
Of course. But you're ignoring the rest. | |
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| What Trump's on 15:58 - Dec 9 with 2891 views | Bluesquid |
| What Trump's on 15:49 - Dec 9 by Darth_Koont |
Of course. But you're ignoring the rest. |
Im not ignoring them at all.
"There are no fewer than 50 million evangelicals in America who, according to research, are convinced of the literal truth of Biblical prophecy."
"Evangelical Christians Lobbied Hard for Trump’s Move on Jerusalem"
https://www.wsj.com/articles/evangelical-christians-lobbied-hard-for-trumps-move
Like i said - i believe his core audience are in fact extremely wealthy organisations that have lobbied the Trump administration in order to influence foreign policy.
They succeeded. | | | |
| What Trump's on 16:11 - Dec 9 with 2879 views | Darth_Koont |
| What Trump's on 15:58 - Dec 9 by Bluesquid |
Im not ignoring them at all.
"There are no fewer than 50 million evangelicals in America who, according to research, are convinced of the literal truth of Biblical prophecy."
"Evangelical Christians Lobbied Hard for Trump’s Move on Jerusalem"
https://www.wsj.com/articles/evangelical-christians-lobbied-hard-for-trumps-move
Like i said - i believe his core audience are in fact extremely wealthy organisations that have lobbied the Trump administration in order to influence foreign policy.
They succeeded. |
Struggling to see where you're coming from TBH. the clue is in the 50 million evangelicals. | |
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| What Trump's on 16:20 - Dec 9 with 2875 views | Bluesquid |
| What Trump's on 16:11 - Dec 9 by Darth_Koont |
Struggling to see where you're coming from TBH. the clue is in the 50 million evangelicals. |
Yes, extremely wealthy evangelical organisations who lobbied the Trump admin.
"Evangelical Christians Lobbied Hard for Trump’s Move on Jerusalem"
What i said earlier...
I believe his core audience are in fact extremely wealthy organisations that have lobbied the Trump administration in order to influence foreign policy.
They succeeded. | | | |
| What Trump's on 16:29 - Dec 9 with 2871 views | Darth_Koont |
| What Trump's on 16:20 - Dec 9 by Bluesquid |
Yes, extremely wealthy evangelical organisations who lobbied the Trump admin.
"Evangelical Christians Lobbied Hard for Trump’s Move on Jerusalem"
What i said earlier...
I believe his core audience are in fact extremely wealthy organisations that have lobbied the Trump administration in order to influence foreign policy.
They succeeded. |
Well, I think you're wrong re: core audience. | |
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