| Theresa defeated.... 19:30 - Dec 13 with 40323 views | ElderGrizzly |
Whoops :)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/13/tory-brexit-rebels-inflict-majo
Theresa May has lost a Brexit vote in the Commons for the first time.
MPs voted to back the Dominic Grieve amendment by 309 votes to 305 - a majority of four.
The amendment will curb some of the powers the government is giving itself in the EU withdrawal bill. Specifically, it means that although clause 9 of the bill gives ministers powers to implement the Brexit withdrawal agreement by order, the amendment that has been passed means says they can only exercise these powers “subject to the prior enactment of a statute by parliament approving the final terms of withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union.”
Opposition MPs also claim the amendment gives parliament a “meaningful vote” on the withdrawal agreement. This is contested because ministers say parliament is already going to get a meaningful vote. But what it will mean is that ministers will not be able to use the powers in clause 9 to implement the EU withdrawal bill by order until the Commons has passed the bill allowing this. See
Around a dozen Tory MPs rebelled, according to Labour. [Post edited 13 Dec 2017 19:33]
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| Theresa defeated.... on 02:35 - Dec 15 with 3710 views | Swansea_Blue |
I'd never heard of them, but then I don't look to pressure groups or social media or the tabloids (or any press really) to tell me how to think (that's not a dig at you btw). |  |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 05:50 - Dec 15 with 3688 views | powinswitch |
| Theresa defeated.... on 00:01 - Dec 15 by jeera |
That's a dreadful reply.
I'm not sure what newspaper you've been reading but people who are unwell are sent for regular 'fit for work' assessments and are starved of funds until they do as they are bullied to do as ordered, often regardless of health or impact.
Which possibly gives some credence to Hammond's comments last week.
Heck knows what you're imagining where people have a choice whether to work or not. |
I don’t read a newspaper. My reply is part of a conversation within the thread with Herbivore, in which I have tried to engage with him, after he used the phrase ‘thick racists’. He claims it was meant in jest. Whilst accepting that may be how he meant it, I wanted to engage in proper debate, on what is a hugely divisive subject. I think Herbivore and I have managed that.
After the post that you have pulled up as being dreadful, Herbivore replied, and in my repl6 to his post I wrote; ‘Anyway you make some fair comments. I am not an expert on benefits, having never claimed, and brought up two children who have never claimed. However I find it astonishing that we have so many people out of work and claiming benefits, who are able t9 work (I realise there are a number who cannot for various reasons),yet need a substantial number of immigrants to do certain jobs. Whilst being* stereotypical, many farm workers, care workers, NHS staff, cafe baristas etc are from a foreign land. Yet we have so many of our own who claim benefits. I do understand that no system would be perfect, but ours does not appear fit for purpose’.
I have described in my initial post on page 1 that my widowed mother received benefits whilst bringing up 3children in the 70s following my father’s death. I even say that ‘ I am extremely grateful and have personal experience of its power’ about the welfare system. My 54 year old cousin has learning difficulties, being blind, deaf and having cognitive issues since birth. I look after her finances, and issues surrounding her care. She has never and never will work, and receives £360 ( well thereabouts) per month to live on.
The work capability assessment was designed during Blair’s adm8nistration, and was immediately a cause for concern. I think it’s premise is sound, but it’s delivery leaves a lot to be desired. I don’t doubt it causes a lot of stress to those who will face it. Probably mostly on those who need it most. My cousin for instance worries because she does not understand the questions, and therefore worries that when she answers she will cock it up and lose her money.
I am content for there to be a robust, regular review system to ensure that claimants are correctly receiving the allowance, although I am uncomfortable with this being outsourced to a private company. There are other concerns as well, and these should be addressed. But I know 2 people who were on this allowance, who are now in work, who always could work, but knew they would be found out. Not many I know, but I don’t know many claimants.
Herbivore made an excellent point about the fact that those not working may be in one area of the country, while the work is in another. I take that on board, and accept that will be a part of the issue. But just to use the farm workers and care workers as examples. Why have we needed so many immigrants to do this work in recent years. Who did it before they did. Why the change.
I used to be in the army - for 30+ years. You would be shocked if you knew how many soldiers were from our commonwealth countries. This used to be a job for the thick, often uneducated lad who fancied a bit of adventure or who could do nothing else. Now they won’t join up. Herbivore highlights how youngsters now have high expectations, which is a fair point. I would suggest that people now bandy words like austerity round so much, that the meaning of austere has been lost. Those living on the streets in Ipswich tonight have it austere. I have seen austere up close in Bosnia, in Afghanistan, and parts of Africa and Asia. Not many who will go to bed tonight in a house in UK will have it austere. The problem is that we are soft.
One of the soldiers who worked for me was a early 20s Black South African who spoke 9languages. He asked me why the British paid people to not work ( our benefits system), and why we put our old relatives away when they could not look after themselves (our care system). I discussed it with my other commonwealth soldiers. They think we have fooked it up big time, although they look after the dispossessed, the weak, the vulnerable. We don’t, we pay them t9 not work, or put them in homes. And then forget them.
Ive rambled on for too long, but have more to contribute. But I need to walk my dog. And then go t9 work. I realise I am lucky to have a job, and am grateful for what it brings me. So are the millions of immigrants who have made them home and lives here. But we cannot go on forever welcoming uncontrolled numbers to do our sh1t jobs. When this generation of immigrants have done it who will do it then. Because i rather suspect their kids will be the ones who do well at school, and will have the better jobs. The answer will be to bring in more immigrants. Sooner or later the infrastructure will collapse. |  | | |
| Theresa defeated.... on 06:55 - Dec 15 with 3673 views | m14_blue |
Fair enough, they do seem every bit as disingenuous as the more unsavory leave types. If they're the propaganda that j2 was referring to then I don't think he need lose any sleep though.
Oh, and I was a remain supporter, I'm not any more. The referendum is over and I don't think it's helpful to continually divide the country down bipartisan lines (not you, everyone - no one can talk about Brexit without first disclosing which side they supported, it shouldn't matter) we all want the best deal possible now, excepting a few extremists from either camp. | | | |
| Theresa defeated.... on 07:28 - Dec 15 with 3655 views | Herbivore |
They've got 72k Twitter followers, most of whom probably already agree with them that we shouldn't leave the EU. I'm against what they are doing but they aren't exactly influential. I'd never heard of them until you posted those Twitter links, you need to be careful spreading remain propaganda like that. |  |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 07:31 - Dec 15 with 3645 views | Herbivore |
| Theresa defeated.... on 02:35 - Dec 15 by Swansea_Blue |
I'd never heard of them, but then I don't look to pressure groups or social media or the tabloids (or any press really) to tell me how to think (that's not a dig at you btw). |
This. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 07:39 - Dec 15 with 3643 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 07:28 - Dec 15 by Herbivore |
They've got 72k Twitter followers, most of whom probably already agree with them that we shouldn't leave the EU. I'm against what they are doing but they aren't exactly influential. I'd never heard of them until you posted those Twitter links, you need to be careful spreading remain propaganda like that. |
I agree. They have very little support. Despite having the likes of Blair, Alistair Campbell, the Kinnocks, Hilary Benn, Clegg and every major remain public figure.
If you were to leave your bubble for a moment you will find that the majority of people who voted remain accept the result of the referendum and just want to get on with it.
They are like the Japanese soldier on an Island still fighting War 2. |  |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 07:49 - Dec 15 with 3630 views | Herbivore |
| Theresa defeated.... on 07:39 - Dec 15 by GlasgowBlue |
I agree. They have very little support. Despite having the likes of Blair, Alistair Campbell, the Kinnocks, Hilary Benn, Clegg and every major remain public figure.
If you were to leave your bubble for a moment you will find that the majority of people who voted remain accept the result of the referendum and just want to get on with it.
They are like the Japanese soldier on an Island still fighting War 2. |
And yet the most recent polls show that if the referendum was held now, remain would win. Go figure. Maybe it's best to just think for yourself on these issues and not get swept along by the opinions of others like a turd floating in the sea. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:01 - Dec 15 with 3623 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 07:49 - Dec 15 by Herbivore |
And yet the most recent polls show that if the referendum was held now, remain would win. Go figure. Maybe it's best to just think for yourself on these issues and not get swept along by the opinions of others like a turd floating in the sea. |
I really wish you would read what is posted. I didn’t mention how people would vote in a second referendum. That isn’t on the table. I said that the majority of remainers accept the result and just want to get on with it.
A recent YouGov found only 14% think Brexit should be abandoned. A new YouGov/Times poll reports that a majority think there should be no second referendum. [Post edited 15 Dec 2017 8:01]
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:11 - Dec 15 with 3615 views | Herbivore |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:01 - Dec 15 by GlasgowBlue |
I really wish you would read what is posted. I didn’t mention how people would vote in a second referendum. That isn’t on the table. I said that the majority of remainers accept the result and just want to get on with it.
A recent YouGov found only 14% think Brexit should be abandoned. A new YouGov/Times poll reports that a majority think there should be no second referendum. [Post edited 15 Dec 2017 8:01]
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You can find polls to support any view, Glassers. That's why it's better to form your own opinions on things instead of trawling through endless polls and Twitter posts in the hope they might help you to score political points on an internet forum. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:12 - Dec 15 with 3615 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:11 - Dec 15 by Herbivore |
You can find polls to support any view, Glassers. That's why it's better to form your own opinions on things instead of trawling through endless polls and Twitter posts in the hope they might help you to score political points on an internet forum. |
“Cough” you brought up polls first to support your view, “cough” | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:23 - Dec 15 with 3598 views | Herbivore |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:12 - Dec 15 by GlasgowBlue |
“Cough” you brought up polls first to support your view, “cough” |
So you weren't referring to poll evidence when you said the majority of remain voters wanted us to get on with Brexit? You made that up? | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:24 - Dec 15 with 3600 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:23 - Dec 15 by Herbivore |
So you weren't referring to poll evidence when you said the majority of remain voters wanted us to get on with Brexit? You made that up? |
Did I mention polls or did you mention polls? I speak to remain voters all of the time. They are not bad people. Some of my best friends voted remain 😃. The majority of them all accept the decision and want put us to move on. [Post edited 15 Dec 2017 8:26]
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:26 - Dec 15 with 3590 views | Herbivore |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:24 - Dec 15 by GlasgowBlue |
Did I mention polls or did you mention polls? I speak to remain voters all of the time. They are not bad people. Some of my best friends voted remain 😃. The majority of them all accept the decision and want put us to move on. [Post edited 15 Dec 2017 8:26]
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Here comes the swerve. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:32 - Dec 15 with 3584 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:26 - Dec 15 by Herbivore |
Here comes the swerve. |
I just answered your question. I still have one outstanding from last week Mr Swervy.
Well done from taking the debate away from anti Brexit propaganda . I note you haven’t addressed the point regarding the blatant misleading lies regarding Fox getting trade deals.
So shall we get back on track, which may save you the embarrassment of having to answer a question out to you a week ago, and accept that the official Remain campaign, whose members include Blair, Ckegg, Umunna and every high profile remainer, are spreading anti Brexit propogsbda? [Post edited 15 Dec 2017 8:39]
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:36 - Dec 15 with 3573 views | Herbivore |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:32 - Dec 15 by GlasgowBlue |
I just answered your question. I still have one outstanding from last week Mr Swervy.
Well done from taking the debate away from anti Brexit propaganda . I note you haven’t addressed the point regarding the blatant misleading lies regarding Fox getting trade deals.
So shall we get back on track, which may save you the embarrassment of having to answer a question out to you a week ago, and accept that the official Remain campaign, whose members include Blair, Ckegg, Umunna and every high profile remainer, are spreading anti Brexit propogsbda? [Post edited 15 Dec 2017 8:39]
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I already responded to you posting some nonsense from Twitter. You edited your previous post with some lies about having friends, didn't really answer my question though. Anyway, I'm out. I get nothing of any value from conversing with you so I'm just going to avoid it entirely I think. You're the first person I've put on ignore, you win the internet. [Post edited 15 Dec 2017 8:42]
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:41 - Dec 15 with 3571 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:36 - Dec 15 by Herbivore |
I already responded to you posting some nonsense from Twitter. You edited your previous post with some lies about having friends, didn't really answer my question though. Anyway, I'm out. I get nothing of any value from conversing with you so I'm just going to avoid it entirely I think. You're the first person I've put on ignore, you win the internet. [Post edited 15 Dec 2017 8:42]
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I edited my post with a smiley face to highlight the humour in my “some of my best friends” joke.
I’m div listing you fir a while as you add fcuk all to any debate and avoid any questions put to you. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 10:05 - Dec 15 with 3544 views | No9 |
| Theresa defeated.... on 20:06 - Dec 14 by GlasgowBlue |
Yes propaganda.
What else do you call this:
Your mob are quick to moan about the Boris Bus but Open Britain are deliberately misleading he public with this anti Brexit message. They know full well that the UK can't sign a single trade deal until we have left the EU. |
More misleading stuff from you?
Open Britain don't claim any trade deals have not been signed- it says struck.
Fox was full of BS that he could have a whole load lined up ready to sign - he has done nothing except spend a considerable amount of taxpayers money shoving two fingers up to the British public in the process. | | | |
| Theresa defeated.... on 10:08 - Dec 15 with 3542 views | No9 |
| Theresa defeated.... on 21:10 - Dec 14 by Herbivore |
I have no idea who they are. Hardly propaganda when it's not pricking the public consciousness. |
While Fox has been talking the Germans have been doing - showing that Brexiteers are just full of BS.
Mercedes have commenced making cars in Vietnam
They have superior personnel to Fox | | | |
| Theresa defeated.... on 11:18 - Dec 15 with 3515 views | NewcyBlue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 10:08 - Dec 15 by No9 |
While Fox has been talking the Germans have been doing - showing that Brexiteers are just full of BS.
Mercedes have commenced making cars in Vietnam
They have superior personnel to Fox |
The factory that they started building in 1995? |  |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:05 - Dec 15 with 3489 views | No9 |
| Theresa defeated.... on 11:18 - Dec 15 by NewcyBlue |
The factory that they started building in 1995? |
Not that I am aware of but it maybe
The Germans make cares all over the world
Of course this makes a complete nonsense of the claim by the Brexiteers that we can't trade ouside the EU doesn't it? | | | |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:07 - Dec 15 with 3485 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:05 - Dec 15 by No9 |
Not that I am aware of but it maybe
The Germans make cares all over the world
Of course this makes a complete nonsense of the claim by the Brexiteers that we can't trade ouside the EU doesn't it? |
Who says we can't trade outside of the EU? More remainer propaganda. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:08 - Dec 15 with 3480 views | NewcyBlue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:05 - Dec 15 by No9 |
Not that I am aware of but it maybe
The Germans make cares all over the world
Of course this makes a complete nonsense of the claim by the Brexiteers that we can't trade ouside the EU doesn't it? |
The Mercedes factory in Vietnam is there to build Mercedes for the Vietnam market to get past their tax import costs.
First car rolled off the line in 1996. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:09 - Dec 15 with 3472 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:08 - Dec 15 by NewcyBlue |
The Mercedes factory in Vietnam is there to build Mercedes for the Vietnam market to get past their tax import costs.
First car rolled off the line in 1996. |
He's not interested in facts | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:10 - Dec 15 with 3464 views | No9 |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:08 - Dec 15 by NewcyBlue |
The Mercedes factory in Vietnam is there to build Mercedes for the Vietnam market to get past their tax import costs.
First car rolled off the line in 1996. |
Thanks for that.
But they now export them don't they?
Isn't the 'S' class exported? | | | |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:11 - Dec 15 with 3460 views | No9 |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:07 - Dec 15 by GlasgowBlue |
Who says we can't trade outside of the EU? More remainer propaganda. |
You've said so on a number of occasions
& this shows the tory claims to be just more lies. | | | |
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