| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio 13:30 - Jan 9 with 28713 views | Lord_Lucan |
I despair
I thought it was the best man wins
Is it just me who thinks positive discrimination is racist to both black and white
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:40 - Jan 9 with 4793 views | upthewallpaul |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:34 - Jan 9 by Darth_Koont |
Of course they would. But that's more unlikely given how few managers and coaches are coming through.
The England manager's job is literally the extreme end of the FA's proposal, especially when the possible candidates would be so few and far between anyway. |
But that's the point. The focus needs to be on getting minority coaches into lower league manager and backroom staff jobs then naturally some will be successful and rise up into the top jobs and some won't. Not just through the selection process but through helping with coaching qualifications, generating contacts, mentoring, etc.
Trying to do it at the top seems bonkers given that managers are generally selected on past record at Premier League Level never mind at international level. |  | | |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:44 - Jan 9 with 4782 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:40 - Jan 9 by upthewallpaul |
But that's the point. The focus needs to be on getting minority coaches into lower league manager and backroom staff jobs then naturally some will be successful and rise up into the top jobs and some won't. Not just through the selection process but through helping with coaching qualifications, generating contacts, mentoring, etc.
Trying to do it at the top seems bonkers given that managers are generally selected on past record at Premier League Level never mind at international level. |
Who said that they're going to start with the manager? This is throughout the England coaching set-up too.
And yes, the rule should be implemented in the Football League as a whole not just the academies as it is now I believe. |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:49 - Jan 9 with 4778 views | upthewallpaul |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:13 - Jan 9 by Darth_Koont |
It's all very well looking for rational explanations (and we should) but unconscious bias is counter-intuitive because we're not aware of it.
If people are asked to visualize a successful football manager and if that visualization is of a white manager an overwhelming proportion if not all of the time then there's a likely effect from unconscious bias and certainly a huge risk. |
If I'm asked to visualize an unsuccessful manager I visualize Mick McCarthy, Paul Jewell and Roy Keane.
Does this represent an unconscious bias? Or a conscious one based on the examples burned into my brain through years of watching them 'manage'? | | | |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:52 - Jan 9 with 4774 views | upthewallpaul |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:44 - Jan 9 by Darth_Koont |
Who said that they're going to start with the manager? This is throughout the England coaching set-up too.
And yes, the rule should be implemented in the Football League as a whole not just the academies as it is now I believe. |
The OP referenced England manager, no mention of other roles. I think the idea is good but in practical terms it wouldn't work for this job. | | | |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:53 - Jan 9 with 4765 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:49 - Jan 9 by upthewallpaul |
If I'm asked to visualize an unsuccessful manager I visualize Mick McCarthy, Paul Jewell and Roy Keane.
Does this represent an unconscious bias? Or a conscious one based on the examples burned into my brain through years of watching them 'manage'? |
But who recruits with an unsuccessful manager in mind? The failures are nameless and faceless in this scenario. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:55 - Jan 9 with 4760 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:52 - Jan 9 by upthewallpaul |
The OP referenced England manager, no mention of other roles. I think the idea is good but in practical terms it wouldn't work for this job. |
Yeah, I didn't trust the source so I looked it up and got the right information. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:56 - Jan 9 with 4759 views | upthewallpaul |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:53 - Jan 9 by Darth_Koont |
But who recruits with an unsuccessful manager in mind? The failures are nameless and faceless in this scenario. |
Marcus Evans! | | | |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:59 - Jan 9 with 4753 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:55 - Jan 9 by Darth_Koont |
Yeah, I didn't trust the source so I looked it up and got the right information. |
Oi ya big barmpot, what do you mean you didn't trust the source.
I was completely talking about the managers job as that was what I saw being reported on the tele. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 21:22 - Jan 9 with 4733 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:59 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
Oi ya big barmpot, what do you mean you didn't trust the source.
I was completely talking about the managers job as that was what I saw being reported on the tele. |
When you called it positive discrimination which has a checkered past, and is also unlawful in the UK as being discriminatory in itself, it was pretty obvious I needed to find out for myself. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 21:26 - Jan 9 with 4724 views | Superfrans |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:49 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
It's obviously for the interview process - and one would think that the best man wins, and I have no doubt that would be the case.
I just personally feel that positive discrimination is not a way to prevent racism. If a person, panel or organisation is racist then the candidate won't get the job anyway.
I feel the same way for organisations such as the black lawyers association and the gay ITFC supporters club. For me it is a backward step and continues to separate.
If there was a white xxxxxxxxx association or straight ITFC supporters club I would want nothing to do with them. |
It’s not positive discrimination.
I thought it was us lefties who were supposed to be a bunch of snowflakes who got upset over nothing. 😂😂😂😂😂 |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 21:28 - Jan 9 with 4719 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 21:26 - Jan 9 by Superfrans |
It’s not positive discrimination.
I thought it was us lefties who were supposed to be a bunch of snowflakes who got upset over nothing. 😂😂😂😂😂 |
Why isn't it positive discrimination - and who said I wasn't a leftie? | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 21:30 - Jan 9 with 4712 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 21:28 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
Why isn't it positive discrimination - and who said I wasn't a leftie? |
Positive discrimination is largely about making jobs only available to minorities in order to redress an overall imbalance. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 21:31 - Jan 9 with 4707 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 21:30 - Jan 9 by Darth_Koont |
Positive discrimination is largely about making jobs only available to minorities in order to redress an overall imbalance. |
Same meat different gravy. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 21:31 - Jan 9 with 4705 views | Superfrans |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:18 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
I'm not buying that.
If a black person was asked to visualise a successful manager he would probably be black, Indian - Indian and so on. |
Your second point is making the case for the Rooney rule better than any amount of lobbying. This is the entire point. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 21:32 - Jan 9 with 4701 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 21:31 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
Same meat different gravy. |
Stop digging.
This isn't the same and you know it. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 21:34 - Jan 9 with 4700 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 21:31 - Jan 9 by Superfrans |
Your second point is making the case for the Rooney rule better than any amount of lobbying. This is the entire point. |
Not really, I got the wrong end of the stick of Koonts scenario, which he later acknowledged. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 21:41 - Jan 9 with 4693 views | Superfrans |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 21:34 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
Not really, I got the wrong end of the stick of Koonts scenario, which he later acknowledged. |
My point is, the reason it is important to put non-white candidates in front of all-white selection boards is because a all-white selection board will most likely visualise the successful candidate as white.
Putting non-white candidates in front of such boards gives those candidates an opportunity to sway them. It also flags the issue and encourages the all-white boards to consider their own (perhaps natural) prejudice. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 21:48 - Jan 9 with 4689 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 21:41 - Jan 9 by Superfrans |
My point is, the reason it is important to put non-white candidates in front of all-white selection boards is because a all-white selection board will most likely visualise the successful candidate as white.
Putting non-white candidates in front of such boards gives those candidates an opportunity to sway them. It also flags the issue and encourages the all-white boards to consider their own (perhaps natural) prejudice. |
Yes I completely understand what you are saying and I completely understand the argument - although I am not 100% convinced that it is necessary these days.
Edit; And I still can't help it's demeaning to minorities - no matter how good the intention. [Post edited 9 Jan 2018 22:03]
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 22:25 - Jan 9 with 4662 views | Superfrans |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 21:48 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
Yes I completely understand what you are saying and I completely understand the argument - although I am not 100% convinced that it is necessary these days.
Edit; And I still can't help it's demeaning to minorities - no matter how good the intention. [Post edited 9 Jan 2018 22:03]
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I’m not sure you do understand stand what I’m saying.
“If a black person was asked to visualise a successful manager he would probably be black, Indian - Indian and so on.” if a white person was asked to visualise a successful manager he would probably be white.
That’s why the Rooney rule has a place in the game. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 22:37 - Jan 9 with 4651 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 22:25 - Jan 9 by Superfrans |
I’m not sure you do understand stand what I’m saying.
“If a black person was asked to visualise a successful manager he would probably be black, Indian - Indian and so on.” if a white person was asked to visualise a successful manager he would probably be white.
That’s why the Rooney rule has a place in the game. |
No, get over that. I would imagine myself in every scenario, I was looking at a childhood dream. If someone were to ask me to suggest a real life successful manager then I would suggest a - er successful manager like Mouhrino or the like.
Seeing that you are insisting on dragging this out let's get on to this BAME subject for an ordinary job (not England manager as per the OP)
How does this work in practice? Does everyone have to tick an ethnicity box and a proportion of the final candidates have to be black or Asian? [Post edited 9 Jan 2018 22:45]
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:57 - Jan 10 with 4556 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 22:37 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
No, get over that. I would imagine myself in every scenario, I was looking at a childhood dream. If someone were to ask me to suggest a real life successful manager then I would suggest a - er successful manager like Mouhrino or the like.
Seeing that you are insisting on dragging this out let's get on to this BAME subject for an ordinary job (not England manager as per the OP)
How does this work in practice? Does everyone have to tick an ethnicity box and a proportion of the final candidates have to be black or Asian? [Post edited 9 Jan 2018 22:45]
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SuperFrans - are you about.
I was hoping you would reply last night as I genuinely want to know more about this BAME employment thing. DaftKoont implied I was either daft or a racist and I've taken umbrage to that. If he (and you perhaps) dijested the whole thread you would see where I was coming from -or not of course if you have already decided you are correct.
I'm not bumping this for a row, I just want to get things straight in my mind so I'll ask again.
How does this work in practice? Does everyone have to tick an ethnicity box and a proportion of the final candidates have to be black or Asian? | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:36 - Jan 10 with 4526 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:57 - Jan 10 by Lord_Lucan |
SuperFrans - are you about.
I was hoping you would reply last night as I genuinely want to know more about this BAME employment thing. DaftKoont implied I was either daft or a racist and I've taken umbrage to that. If he (and you perhaps) dijested the whole thread you would see where I was coming from -or not of course if you have already decided you are correct.
I'm not bumping this for a row, I just want to get things straight in my mind so I'll ask again.
How does this work in practice? Does everyone have to tick an ethnicity box and a proportion of the final candidates have to be black or Asian? |
I didn't imply you were daft or racist, you wrote things that were stupid and/or dodgy throughout the thread. E.g. your Asian bookkeeper and the suggestion that black players don't go into coaching because of "lifestyle" choices
Whether you were serious or not, only you can say. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:38 - Jan 10 with 4521 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:36 - Jan 10 by Darth_Koont |
I didn't imply you were daft or racist, you wrote things that were stupid and/or dodgy throughout the thread. E.g. your Asian bookkeeper and the suggestion that black players don't go into coaching because of "lifestyle" choices
Whether you were serious or not, only you can say. |
Can you answer my question then? | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 15:01 - Jan 10 with 4509 views | rickw |
I think this is a good thing for all the different age groups at England, however not for the senior team.
Paul Ince was interviewed for the U21's last time, but was overlooked for Aidy Boothroyd so just getting an interview may not be enough - Ince was an England legend as a player and I'd prefer the FA to give chances to our former stars...
For the senior team there are so few English managers with enough experience and success (actually there are none...) interviewing a black manager who has even less experience at Premier League and European level than the white managers seems a bit of an empty gesture.
I would also rule out Chris Hughton, not because of his skin or he managed Norwich, but because his allegiances the past 38 years have been with Republic of Ireland, I would do the same with MM (not that I'd want him anyway) If Hughton hadn't played and coached Ireland he would have to be on the very small shortlist of Premier League English managers and in with a shout |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 15:08 - Jan 10 with 4500 views | Radlett_blue |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 15:01 - Jan 10 by rickw |
I think this is a good thing for all the different age groups at England, however not for the senior team.
Paul Ince was interviewed for the U21's last time, but was overlooked for Aidy Boothroyd so just getting an interview may not be enough - Ince was an England legend as a player and I'd prefer the FA to give chances to our former stars...
For the senior team there are so few English managers with enough experience and success (actually there are none...) interviewing a black manager who has even less experience at Premier League and European level than the white managers seems a bit of an empty gesture.
I would also rule out Chris Hughton, not because of his skin or he managed Norwich, but because his allegiances the past 38 years have been with Republic of Ireland, I would do the same with MM (not that I'd want him anyway) If Hughton hadn't played and coached Ireland he would have to be on the very small shortlist of Premier League English managers and in with a shout |
Paul Ince & Aidy Boothroyd were the best 2 candidates?
Heaven help us! |  |
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