| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio 13:30 - Jan 9 with 28714 views | Lord_Lucan |
I despair
I thought it was the best man wins
Is it just me who thinks positive discrimination is racist to both black and white
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 16:09 - Jan 9 with 5304 views | Pendejo |
Dyche then... equal opps for those of ginger extraction |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 16:23 - Jan 9 with 5295 views | Trequartista |
ridiculous rule. it's just the f.a. trying to make themselves look better. |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 16:56 - Jan 9 with 5267 views | imsureazzure |
Houghton is doing well because he is good, Ince got sacked several times because he was sh1t.
If ever there was a meritocracy then surely it is at its finest in football. |  | | |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 17:38 - Jan 9 with 5247 views | tcblue |
This thread does a really good job at indicating why this is unfortunately necessary - much like it was in American sports.
I'm sure the idea is that this gets adopted from the top-down, because as I said some of the responses on here have really made the point in saying how few high level coaches who aren't white make / made it. Why is that? It's completely out of whack with the proportion of (say) black players.
The only conclusion of why that is, is that there's (conscious or hopefully unconscious) bias towards white coaches, across the sport. "not good enough" can't be the answer given the mix of ethnicity at the top playing level. Which in turn manifests in the ludicrously small amount of black managers close to the top level (I think this thread mentioned them in a depressingly short amount of replies), which I have no doubt makes what probably could be some of the finest potential coaches just never bother.
Hopefully this will be adopted throughout the clubs at all the levels and does away with some of that. It certainly proved it did in the NFL, with the youngest ever head coach to win the Super Bowl being am African American who may never have had a chance without the unfortunately necessary helping hand. |  | | |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 17:40 - Jan 9 with 5245 views | chicoazul |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 15:31 - Jan 9 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Its only really positive discriminatuon if the BAME candidate were to get the job and didnt have the credentials to support that decision.
I dont really have a problem with it.
Genuine question though... if the England job came available now, which BAME candidate might be considered? |
Simple; the FA guarantee to interview at least 1 BAME applicant who meet their criteria of having managed a professional team at a high level and who have all their coaching badges. |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 17:48 - Jan 9 with 5235 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 17:40 - Jan 9 by chicoazul |
Simple; the FA guarantee to interview at least 1 BAME applicant who meet their criteria of having managed a professional team at a high level and who have all their coaching badges. |
Yes, that's correct.
I was trying to think of a candidate who currently fits that criteria. |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 17:50 - Jan 9 with 5234 views | tcblue |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 17:48 - Jan 9 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Yes, that's correct.
I was trying to think of a candidate who currently fits that criteria. |
This is a massive problem, and why the ruling needs applying at lower levels. | | | |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 17:56 - Jan 9 with 5221 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 17:50 - Jan 9 by tcblue |
This is a massive problem, and why the ruling needs applying at lower levels. |
I was listening to Leroy Rosenior talking about it today, he made some good points.
He went for his original interview with Torquay and missed out on the job as it went to Roy MacFarland. LR didnt have a problem with that as RM had better credentials.
....however, when RM left 18 months later, the chairman called LR and offered him the job as he was impressed by their previous meeting.
So the Rooney rule may not always lead to the job the BAME candidate is interviewed for, but may open other doors.
LR had very balanced views on the Rooney rule. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 17:58 - Jan 9 with 5228 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 17:48 - Jan 9 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Yes, that's correct.
I was trying to think of a candidate who currently fits that criteria. |
Chris Hughton - doesn't matter if he represented Rep of Ireland.
Anyway, it depends on the criteria. The Rooney rule or similar is to ensure there's some transparency that the process is open enough to all candidates that meet the criteria. And perhaps shake the interview committee out of a pre-conceived approach that actually limits them. |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:01 - Jan 9 with 5212 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 17:58 - Jan 9 by Darth_Koont |
Chris Hughton - doesn't matter if he represented Rep of Ireland.
Anyway, it depends on the criteria. The Rooney rule or similar is to ensure there's some transparency that the process is open enough to all candidates that meet the criteria. And perhaps shake the interview committee out of a pre-conceived approach that actually limits them. |
Good suggestion.
I understand the Rooney rule. Thanks. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:06 - Jan 9 with 5212 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 17:38 - Jan 9 by tcblue |
This thread does a really good job at indicating why this is unfortunately necessary - much like it was in American sports.
I'm sure the idea is that this gets adopted from the top-down, because as I said some of the responses on here have really made the point in saying how few high level coaches who aren't white make / made it. Why is that? It's completely out of whack with the proportion of (say) black players.
The only conclusion of why that is, is that there's (conscious or hopefully unconscious) bias towards white coaches, across the sport. "not good enough" can't be the answer given the mix of ethnicity at the top playing level. Which in turn manifests in the ludicrously small amount of black managers close to the top level (I think this thread mentioned them in a depressingly short amount of replies), which I have no doubt makes what probably could be some of the finest potential coaches just never bother.
Hopefully this will be adopted throughout the clubs at all the levels and does away with some of that. It certainly proved it did in the NFL, with the youngest ever head coach to win the Super Bowl being am African American who may never have had a chance without the unfortunately necessary helping hand. |
But how many black ex players are going for their coaching badges? I have no idea by the way but I would imagine very few in comparison - maybe it's a lifestyle thing, I don't know.
Isn't Kieron going for his badges? I think he is.
I would be very enthusiastic to have him as our manager and I cannot see any way any chairman would not welcome the best manager regardless of colour.
Maybe I'm living in a dreamworld, I tend to assume that everyone is a good person, generally I think they are. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:23 - Jan 9 with 5196 views | tcblue |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:06 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
But how many black ex players are going for their coaching badges? I have no idea by the way but I would imagine very few in comparison - maybe it's a lifestyle thing, I don't know.
Isn't Kieron going for his badges? I think he is.
I would be very enthusiastic to have him as our manager and I cannot see any way any chairman would not welcome the best manager regardless of colour.
Maybe I'm living in a dreamworld, I tend to assume that everyone is a good person, generally I think they are. |
See, that's kinda my point, if there's not many black former players going for their badges, why might that be? Unfortunate acceptance of the discriminatory status quo?
It's more complex than "there's no black applicants, so there's no problem", in my opinion. | | | |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:23 - Jan 9 with 5195 views | textbackup |
SO basically paul ince will get an interview and everyone will know it’s a waste of everyone’s time, tick in the box [Post edited 9 Jan 2018 19:52]
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:30 - Jan 9 with 5179 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:06 - Jan 9 by unbelievablue |
In the NFL, teams can avoid interviewing Black and Ethnic Minority candidates and pay a $200k fine instead. |
I think the rule is well intentioned and certainly has merit, but the NFL does show where this doesn’t always work for professional sport. Plenty of examples of teams performing obvious ‘sham’ interviews which are a waste of everyone’s time, before ultimately appointing the guy they were going to appoint anyway
I think it’s a small price to pay though for promoting equality - and this should definitely provide benefits further down the Wngland setup, even if it isn’t going to make a difference at the very top (which in fairness it shouldn’t) |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:33 - Jan 9 with 5185 views | sparks |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:49 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
It's obviously for the interview process - and one would think that the best man wins, and I have no doubt that would be the case.
I just personally feel that positive discrimination is not a way to prevent racism. If a person, panel or organisation is racist then the candidate won't get the job anyway.
I feel the same way for organisations such as the black lawyers association and the gay ITFC supporters club. For me it is a backward step and continues to separate.
If there was a white xxxxxxxxx association or straight ITFC supporters club I would want nothing to do with them. |
I think the Association of Black Lawyers was very important in the past, but is arguably divisive now.
This "Rooney rule" would make more sense if there was reason to think that there are genuine candidates for the England job who are not getting to be part of hte process as a result of their race, but there really isnt at the moment is there? Importantly, imo, it risks creating a mindset that certain groups need special help which can be seriously counter productive. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:40 - Jan 9 with 5173 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:33 - Jan 9 by sparks |
I think the Association of Black Lawyers was very important in the past, but is arguably divisive now.
This "Rooney rule" would make more sense if there was reason to think that there are genuine candidates for the England job who are not getting to be part of hte process as a result of their race, but there really isnt at the moment is there? Importantly, imo, it risks creating a mindset that certain groups need special help which can be seriously counter productive. |
I think the benefit will be for jobs further down the England setup, and perhaps more importantly is the FA taking a lead on something which they’d presumably like the clubs to adopt too [Post edited 9 Jan 2018 18:42]
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:45 - Jan 9 with 5170 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:33 - Jan 9 by sparks |
I think the Association of Black Lawyers was very important in the past, but is arguably divisive now.
This "Rooney rule" would make more sense if there was reason to think that there are genuine candidates for the England job who are not getting to be part of hte process as a result of their race, but there really isnt at the moment is there? Importantly, imo, it risks creating a mindset that certain groups need special help which can be seriously counter productive. |
Well I agree with all of that (including the black lawyers bit) and you have explained it better than I did.
I think all groups are counter productive to be honest. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:45 - Jan 9 with 5171 views | sparks |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:23 - Jan 9 by tcblue |
See, that's kinda my point, if there's not many black former players going for their badges, why might that be? Unfortunate acceptance of the discriminatory status quo?
It's more complex than "there's no black applicants, so there's no problem", in my opinion. |
It may well be. But its also problematic to take the "Inequality of outcome demonstrates inequality of opportunity" approach, without being exceedingly careful about the other variables, where cultural issues, economic issues, demographics, or even gender differences are potentially relevant.
For instance many managers are still the wrong side of 50. Seems to come with the territory. Those are players who started playing 30+ years ago. There were far fewer black players 30 years ago, so comparing current ratios of black players to black managers is hugely misleading. Query also whether a fair proportion of black players are foreign and do not stay in the country, or have different cultural upbringings which might affect their decisions.
We need to be scrupulous about equality of opportunity, but this type of positive discrimination can be counter productive and divisive. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:55 - Jan 9 with 5150 views | itfcjoe |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:45 - Jan 9 by sparks |
It may well be. But its also problematic to take the "Inequality of outcome demonstrates inequality of opportunity" approach, without being exceedingly careful about the other variables, where cultural issues, economic issues, demographics, or even gender differences are potentially relevant.
For instance many managers are still the wrong side of 50. Seems to come with the territory. Those are players who started playing 30+ years ago. There were far fewer black players 30 years ago, so comparing current ratios of black players to black managers is hugely misleading. Query also whether a fair proportion of black players are foreign and do not stay in the country, or have different cultural upbringings which might affect their decisions.
We need to be scrupulous about equality of opportunity, but this type of positive discrimination can be counter productive and divisive. |
When the PL started, 1 in 6 English players were black, that's now down to 1 in 3.
That was 25 years ago and whilst I appreciate there is a timelag there are clearly underlying reasons why those figures aren't even close to being represented - 25 years is a long time. |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:57 - Jan 9 with 5143 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:45 - Jan 9 by sparks |
It may well be. But its also problematic to take the "Inequality of outcome demonstrates inequality of opportunity" approach, without being exceedingly careful about the other variables, where cultural issues, economic issues, demographics, or even gender differences are potentially relevant.
For instance many managers are still the wrong side of 50. Seems to come with the territory. Those are players who started playing 30+ years ago. There were far fewer black players 30 years ago, so comparing current ratios of black players to black managers is hugely misleading. Query also whether a fair proportion of black players are foreign and do not stay in the country, or have different cultural upbringings which might affect their decisions.
We need to be scrupulous about equality of opportunity, but this type of positive discrimination can be counter productive and divisive. |
But managers have been getting much, much younger in recent years so the "number of black players back in the 80s" argument isn't that relevant. In any case, the numbers are way off even making a generous allowance for that as a key factor.
Unconscious bias is however a documented phenomenon so it makes zero sense not to address that in the shortlist stage. Who does it hurt versus who does it potentially help? | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:59 - Jan 9 with 5138 views | sparks |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:55 - Jan 9 by itfcjoe |
When the PL started, 1 in 6 English players were black, that's now down to 1 in 3.
That was 25 years ago and whilst I appreciate there is a timelag there are clearly underlying reasons why those figures aren't even close to being represented - 25 years is a long time. |
You can reasonably suggest that 20 years ago, it was problematic to get into management if you were black. Maybe 15 or even 10 years ago- exacerbating any time lag. I dont think its really a thing now, personally. Clubs are interested solely in what will succeed. Most clubs would employ a talking camel if they were confident it would get them into the premiership and secure a 100m a year payday!
The main point though- is to be very cautious about assuming that because representation is not exactly even, that is the result of a current barrier, rather than the many other very hard to track variables. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:13 - Jan 9 with 5121 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:59 - Jan 9 by sparks |
You can reasonably suggest that 20 years ago, it was problematic to get into management if you were black. Maybe 15 or even 10 years ago- exacerbating any time lag. I dont think its really a thing now, personally. Clubs are interested solely in what will succeed. Most clubs would employ a talking camel if they were confident it would get them into the premiership and secure a 100m a year payday!
The main point though- is to be very cautious about assuming that because representation is not exactly even, that is the result of a current barrier, rather than the many other very hard to track variables. |
It's all very well looking for rational explanations (and we should) but unconscious bias is counter-intuitive because we're not aware of it.
If people are asked to visualize a successful football manager and if that visualization is of a white manager an overwhelming proportion if not all of the time then there's a likely effect from unconscious bias and certainly a huge risk. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:14 - Jan 9 with 5116 views | sparks |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:13 - Jan 9 by Darth_Koont |
It's all very well looking for rational explanations (and we should) but unconscious bias is counter-intuitive because we're not aware of it.
If people are asked to visualize a successful football manager and if that visualization is of a white manager an overwhelming proportion if not all of the time then there's a likely effect from unconscious bias and certainly a huge risk. |
Undoutbedly a relevant variable. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:18 - Jan 9 with 5112 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:13 - Jan 9 by Darth_Koont |
It's all very well looking for rational explanations (and we should) but unconscious bias is counter-intuitive because we're not aware of it.
If people are asked to visualize a successful football manager and if that visualization is of a white manager an overwhelming proportion if not all of the time then there's a likely effect from unconscious bias and certainly a huge risk. |
I'm not buying that.
If a black person was asked to visualise a successful manager he would probably be black, Indian - Indian and so on. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:19 - Jan 9 with 5109 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:14 - Jan 9 by sparks |
Undoutbedly a relevant variable. |
Bit more than that, it's a documented effect.
Which means over the numbers of coaching and manager appointments in professional football there will be a lot fewer than there should be.
By putting this type of rule in place you can break through that bias to a large extent. Literally snapping people out of it. [Post edited 9 Jan 2018 19:22]
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