| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio 13:30 - Jan 9 with 28715 views | Lord_Lucan |
I despair
I thought it was the best man wins
Is it just me who thinks positive discrimination is racist to both black and white
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:19 - Jan 9 with 3434 views | sparks |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:18 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
I'm not buying that.
If a black person was asked to visualise a successful manager he would probably be black, Indian - Indian and so on. |
I dont think that is necessarily so.
Self image is influenced heavily by society. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:21 - Jan 9 with 3431 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:18 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
I'm not buying that.
If a black person was asked to visualise a successful manager he would probably be black, Indian - Indian and so on. |
He wouldn't just visualize one of Guardiola, Pochettino, Ferguson or Mourinho like the rest of us?
That's a bit racist. |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:24 - Jan 9 with 3413 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:21 - Jan 9 by Darth_Koont |
He wouldn't just visualize one of Guardiola, Pochettino, Ferguson or Mourinho like the rest of us?
That's a bit racist. |
Incorrect it may be - in your opinion - but don't go all racist Godwin on me for crying out loud. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:26 - Jan 9 with 3413 views | Trequartista |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 17:38 - Jan 9 by tcblue |
This thread does a really good job at indicating why this is unfortunately necessary - much like it was in American sports.
I'm sure the idea is that this gets adopted from the top-down, because as I said some of the responses on here have really made the point in saying how few high level coaches who aren't white make / made it. Why is that? It's completely out of whack with the proportion of (say) black players.
The only conclusion of why that is, is that there's (conscious or hopefully unconscious) bias towards white coaches, across the sport. "not good enough" can't be the answer given the mix of ethnicity at the top playing level. Which in turn manifests in the ludicrously small amount of black managers close to the top level (I think this thread mentioned them in a depressingly short amount of replies), which I have no doubt makes what probably could be some of the finest potential coaches just never bother.
Hopefully this will be adopted throughout the clubs at all the levels and does away with some of that. It certainly proved it did in the NFL, with the youngest ever head coach to win the Super Bowl being am African American who may never have had a chance without the unfortunately necessary helping hand. |
Why is it BAME? ie why are all the ethnicities lumped into one? how many asian players are there in football compared to the amount of asian people in the country? why in the england youth teams are their an over proportionate amount of mixed raced players? it's just ludicrous to try and artificially change reality. [Post edited 9 Jan 2018 19:28]
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:27 - Jan 9 with 3405 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:24 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
Incorrect it may be - in your opinion - but don't go all racist Godwin on me for crying out loud. |
But that's what you're saying. Why on earth would an Indian PROBABLY visualize an Indian manager if they thought of a successful football manager?
They'd have to put race ahead of reality. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:30 - Jan 9 with 3389 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:27 - Jan 9 by Darth_Koont |
But that's what you're saying. Why on earth would an Indian PROBABLY visualize an Indian manager if they thought of a successful football manager?
They'd have to put race ahead of reality. |
I would imagine most people would image themself in it. If I am daydreaming about the best basketball player that ever lived it will have my bonce on it - and I've never played the game. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:39 - Jan 9 with 3380 views | upthewallpaul |
I think it's a great idea in principal but how would it work in practice given the sheer lack of black managers?
Would an in work manager like Chris Hughton want to go and interview for another job knowing they are highly unlikely to get it?
Would it mean hauling in Paul Ince for an interview every time only to then reach the conclusion that a couple of good years at MK Dons doesn't quite qualify him for England?
Also are football managers really hired based on performance in an interview? I think record in other jobs and in this case international experience are surely the key criteria. I remember Mick McCarthy once saying he turned down Forrest he doesn't do interviews, I wonder how many other manager think like this? |  | | |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:43 - Jan 9 with 3373 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:30 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
I would imagine most people would image themself in it. If I am daydreaming about the best basketball player that ever lived it will have my bonce on it - and I've never played the game. |
I should have made it clearer perhaps but I'm not saying imagine being a successful football manager. I meant the first picture of a successful football manager that comes into your head. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:48 - Jan 9 with 3354 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:39 - Jan 9 by upthewallpaul |
I think it's a great idea in principal but how would it work in practice given the sheer lack of black managers?
Would an in work manager like Chris Hughton want to go and interview for another job knowing they are highly unlikely to get it?
Would it mean hauling in Paul Ince for an interview every time only to then reach the conclusion that a couple of good years at MK Dons doesn't quite qualify him for England?
Also are football managers really hired based on performance in an interview? I think record in other jobs and in this case international experience are surely the key criteria. I remember Mick McCarthy once saying he turned down Forrest he doesn't do interviews, I wonder how many other manager think like this? |
Exactly, this is why I think the whole thing is torrid, what poor black bloke is going to get the stick.
Bernard Manning would call him a "Token"
Now I did think one poster made a good point a few pages back on ordinary jobs with x amount of candidates making it to a face to face interview. Not sure how that works though, does one have to tick an ethnicity box? | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:49 - Jan 9 with 3363 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:55 - Jan 9 by itfcjoe |
When the PL started, 1 in 6 English players were black, that's now down to 1 in 3.
That was 25 years ago and whilst I appreciate there is a timelag there are clearly underlying reasons why those figures aren't even close to being represented - 25 years is a long time. |
Perhaps we need a rule that allows a fairer representation of white players.
;-) |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:52 - Jan 9 with 3345 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:48 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
Exactly, this is why I think the whole thing is torrid, what poor black bloke is going to get the stick.
Bernard Manning would call him a "Token"
Now I did think one poster made a good point a few pages back on ordinary jobs with x amount of candidates making it to a face to face interview. Not sure how that works though, does one have to tick an ethnicity box? |
Eh? That's exactly what this is.
It's not about making sure a BAME manager is given any specific job to boost the numbers. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:59 - Jan 9 with 3331 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:52 - Jan 9 by Darth_Koont |
Eh? That's exactly what this is.
It's not about making sure a BAME manager is given any specific job to boost the numbers. |
Yes I completely understand this but it is completely unworkable for the England manager.
On a normal job I completely get it - although I am still not 100% convinced I have to say.
When I'm employing someone I immediately throw half the applicants straight in the bin anyway - thus not employing unlucky people. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:04 - Jan 9 with 3323 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:59 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
Yes I completely understand this but it is completely unworkable for the England manager.
On a normal job I completely get it - although I am still not 100% convinced I have to say.
When I'm employing someone I immediately throw half the applicants straight in the bin anyway - thus not employing unlucky people. |
This is like talking to a climate change denier who talks about how cold it's been recently.
You really should do a bit of reading about this. And I don't care how condescending that sounds. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:05 - Jan 9 with 3317 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:59 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
Yes I completely understand this but it is completely unworkable for the England manager.
On a normal job I completely get it - although I am still not 100% convinced I have to say.
When I'm employing someone I immediately throw half the applicants straight in the bin anyway - thus not employing unlucky people. |
Classic Viz top tip right there |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:12 - Jan 9 with 3294 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:04 - Jan 9 by Darth_Koont |
This is like talking to a climate change denier who talks about how cold it's been recently.
You really should do a bit of reading about this. And I don't care how condescending that sounds. |
For me it's like arguing with someone that can't accept that weather changes. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:14 - Jan 9 with 3288 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:12 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
For me it's like arguing with someone that can't accept that weather changes. |
That didn't make sense. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:20 - Jan 9 with 3260 views | Suffolktractor |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:43 - Jan 9 by Darth_Koont |
I should have made it clearer perhaps but I'm not saying imagine being a successful football manager. I meant the first picture of a successful football manager that comes into your head. |
The first picture of a successful football manager to come into my head is of Bobby Robson. Does that make me a middle class racist or some one with old fashioned memories of when football was really a beautiful game and we were really very good at it? | | | |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:21 - Jan 9 with 3251 views | upthewallpaul |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:48 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
Exactly, this is why I think the whole thing is torrid, what poor black bloke is going to get the stick.
Bernard Manning would call him a "Token"
Now I did think one poster made a good point a few pages back on ordinary jobs with x amount of candidates making it to a face to face interview. Not sure how that works though, does one have to tick an ethnicity box? |
The other thing is how far do you take this?
Presumably you would need a female candidate as otherwise it would be sexist? Then if you have a black candidate surely you should also have an Asian and Arabic candidate as otherwise they are being given an unfair chance. So a Male and Female of each and your up to 8. But don't stop there - you can't leave out LGBT people or non binary of each race so that makes 28. And why not throw different nationalities and religions into the mix?
Looks like the FA could be doing a lot of interviews. | | | |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:25 - Jan 9 with 3248 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:14 - Jan 9 by Darth_Koont |
That didn't make sense. |
Weather changes, it's what weather does.
Did global warming change the ice age? | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:27 - Jan 9 with 3232 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:20 - Jan 9 by Suffolktractor |
The first picture of a successful football manager to come into my head is of Bobby Robson. Does that make me a middle class racist or some one with old fashioned memories of when football was really a beautiful game and we were really very good at it? |
No, that's just normal.
It leaves an imprint though - especially when the vast majority of other successful managers and coaches are also white. This is the thing about the unconscious bias — it's nothing to do with racism which is a conscious preference or discrimination. [Post edited 9 Jan 2018 20:28]
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:28 - Jan 9 with 3226 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:21 - Jan 9 by upthewallpaul |
The other thing is how far do you take this?
Presumably you would need a female candidate as otherwise it would be sexist? Then if you have a black candidate surely you should also have an Asian and Arabic candidate as otherwise they are being given an unfair chance. So a Male and Female of each and your up to 8. But don't stop there - you can't leave out LGBT people or non binary of each race so that makes 28. And why not throw different nationalities and religions into the mix?
Looks like the FA could be doing a lot of interviews. |
People will be marrying their dogs next etc. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:29 - Jan 9 with 3220 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:25 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
Weather changes, it's what weather does.
Did global warming change the ice age? |
Oh dear. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:30 - Jan 9 with 3215 views | upthewallpaul |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:27 - Jan 9 by Darth_Koont |
No, that's just normal.
It leaves an imprint though - especially when the vast majority of other successful managers and coaches are also white. This is the thing about the unconscious bias — it's nothing to do with racism which is a conscious preference or discrimination. [Post edited 9 Jan 2018 20:28]
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Serious question - do you really think if a black English manager had won major trophies at club level, say if they had Bobby Robson's record for example, the FA would not at least interview them anyway? | | | |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:33 - Jan 9 with 3175 views | blue_oyster |
Liberty and equality for all exists until you make laws that discriminate on that basis. |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:34 - Jan 9 with 3182 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:30 - Jan 9 by upthewallpaul |
Serious question - do you really think if a black English manager had won major trophies at club level, say if they had Bobby Robson's record for example, the FA would not at least interview them anyway? |
Of course they would. But that's more unlikely given how few managers and coaches are coming through.
The England manager's job is literally the extreme end of the FA's proposal, especially when the possible candidates would be so few and far between anyway. | |
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