| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio 13:30 - Jan 9 with 28669 views | Lord_Lucan |
I despair
I thought it was the best man wins
Is it just me who thinks positive discrimination is racist to both black and white
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 15:24 - Jan 10 with 4246 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:38 - Jan 10 by Lord_Lucan |
Can you answer my question then? |
"How does this work in practice? Does everyone have to tick an ethnicity box and a proportion of the final candidates have to be black or Asian?"
From what I gather, they only have to ensure that 1 minority candidate is interviewed who also meets the criteria of course. |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 15:41 - Jan 10 with 4160 views | Superfrans |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:57 - Jan 10 by Lord_Lucan |
SuperFrans - are you about.
I was hoping you would reply last night as I genuinely want to know more about this BAME employment thing. DaftKoont implied I was either daft or a racist and I've taken umbrage to that. If he (and you perhaps) dijested the whole thread you would see where I was coming from -or not of course if you have already decided you are correct.
I'm not bumping this for a row, I just want to get things straight in my mind so I'll ask again.
How does this work in practice? Does everyone have to tick an ethnicity box and a proportion of the final candidates have to be black or Asian? |
I'm absolutely not (and wasn't) suggesting you were racist. I think you misread the point I was making.
I simply was trying to point out that the comment you made (that an interview panel made up of people of Indian descent would be most likely to view a successful candidate in their own image, ie of Indian descent) supported the basic need for the Rooney rule.
I think the comment you made (which I read as an observation, not evidence of racism by you) was a correct one. And that, equally, a majority white interview panel would probably be most likely to visualise a successful candidate who is white.
FWIW I think it is also possibly true that an all female interview panel is more likely to visualise a successful female candidate than an all-male candidate, all other things being equal. Naturally, we all gravitate towards what we know and understand best - and I wouldn't say that's necessarily racist or sexist, I would say that that's human nature.
In fact, the likelihood is that it would begin earlier than that - in the process of selecting candidates from interview stage.
The Rooney rule is all about trying to ensure that non-white candidates get a shot at an interview. This puts such candidates into the process and gives them a chance of proving their case. The other thing it does, of course, if raises it on the agenda of the panel and ensures that they are aware of their potential prejudice, which most surely be a good thing.
Apologies for not answering last night. It wasn't to swerve the debate, but I didn't know how to say I think you've misunderstood me without you thinking I was suggesting you were being a bit thick. I wasn't trying to suggest that. I suspect it was probably my unclear communication...
On your question, I don't know. There would have to be some way of identifying ethnicity, I guess. A tick box would seem obvious - but I suspect it would be more subtle than, "white" or "other"... ;-)
There are lots of surveys which ask you to identify your ethnicity and offer a range of a dozen or more options. In practice, of course, for roles such as these, it would be more straightforward. Many candidates would be known to the FA, not least because they would have to have gone through the formal coach training processes and would be on some database/register which would be available to the FA. [Post edited 10 Jan 2018 15:42]
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 15:47 - Jan 10 with 4150 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 15:24 - Jan 10 by Darth_Koont |
"How does this work in practice? Does everyone have to tick an ethnicity box and a proportion of the final candidates have to be black or Asian?"
From what I gather, they only have to ensure that 1 minority candidate is interviewed who also meets the criteria of course. |
You see this is where I think the whole thing is completely stupid ------if what you are saying is actually what happens.
On your application form you tick white, black, Asian etc, then for the final face to face one bod must be a BAME.
My old best mucker (RIP) was called David Harwood and he was as black as your hat. How would he be discriminated against with a name like that? The panel or board wouldn't know he was black so even if they were unintentionally avoiding black candidates for the final interview they would have no idea David was black
What about someone called Mbodo Ackybyski I hear you ask. This is where I can see a point with a guaranteed ethnic candidate but the whole thing does not sit very well with me at all. If Mbodo actually got the job there would always be people thinking that he got the job unfairly, he might well be thinking the same thing himself. The whole thing reeks of tokenism.
If unintentional racism exists (and I can accept that it does) why can't every initial application be stamped with a number with name withheld until the final face to face stages? You might end up with 100% Mbodos that way if they were the best applications. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 15:50 - Jan 10 with 4142 views | Superfrans |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 15:01 - Jan 10 by rickw |
I think this is a good thing for all the different age groups at England, however not for the senior team.
Paul Ince was interviewed for the U21's last time, but was overlooked for Aidy Boothroyd so just getting an interview may not be enough - Ince was an England legend as a player and I'd prefer the FA to give chances to our former stars...
For the senior team there are so few English managers with enough experience and success (actually there are none...) interviewing a black manager who has even less experience at Premier League and European level than the white managers seems a bit of an empty gesture.
I would also rule out Chris Hughton, not because of his skin or he managed Norwich, but because his allegiances the past 38 years have been with Republic of Ireland, I would do the same with MM (not that I'd want him anyway) If Hughton hadn't played and coached Ireland he would have to be on the very small shortlist of Premier League English managers and in with a shout |
Getting an interview is no guarantee of getting a job, its a guarantee of getting a chance of showing you are relevant for a job.
This whole thing seems to be being misunderstood though. The FA proposal is to bring in the Rooney rule at various levels of recruitment, as it should be - it isn't about just the England manager, that would be nuts. The aim is to help facilitate a balanced recruitment policy, balanced across a range of ethnic backgrounds. At the moment there is clearly no balance - the vast majority of recruits are white.
Having non-white faces in lower coaching positions allows for a flow of non-white faces into higher coaching positions and then into the top jobs. This is important for lots of reasons, not least ensuring that young non-white footballers feel included, feel part of the process.
At Ipswich, we've been pretty good at a coaching level, we've had the likes of Dozzell, Titus, Kieron all involved in youth coaching, as well as Terry Connor as first team coach. I would imagine that a young talented black kid might well be encouraged to join a club which is as inclusive as that, which can only help a club which is so reliant on young players as we are. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 15:50 - Jan 10 with 4135 views | eireblue |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:57 - Jan 10 by Lord_Lucan |
SuperFrans - are you about.
I was hoping you would reply last night as I genuinely want to know more about this BAME employment thing. DaftKoont implied I was either daft or a racist and I've taken umbrage to that. If he (and you perhaps) dijested the whole thread you would see where I was coming from -or not of course if you have already decided you are correct.
I'm not bumping this for a row, I just want to get things straight in my mind so I'll ask again.
How does this work in practice? Does everyone have to tick an ethnicity box and a proportion of the final candidates have to be black or Asian? |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias
Have a look at your first post.
Why wouldn't a female be able to manage a football team?
The best person should get the job.
The purpose of such things is to address unconscious bias.
Ada Lovelace is recognised as the first computer programmer.
Don't see many techies like her nowadays. |  | | |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 15:57 - Jan 10 with 4130 views | Superfrans |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 15:47 - Jan 10 by Lord_Lucan |
You see this is where I think the whole thing is completely stupid ------if what you are saying is actually what happens.
On your application form you tick white, black, Asian etc, then for the final face to face one bod must be a BAME.
My old best mucker (RIP) was called David Harwood and he was as black as your hat. How would he be discriminated against with a name like that? The panel or board wouldn't know he was black so even if they were unintentionally avoiding black candidates for the final interview they would have no idea David was black
What about someone called Mbodo Ackybyski I hear you ask. This is where I can see a point with a guaranteed ethnic candidate but the whole thing does not sit very well with me at all. If Mbodo actually got the job there would always be people thinking that he got the job unfairly, he might well be thinking the same thing himself. The whole thing reeks of tokenism.
If unintentional racism exists (and I can accept that it does) why can't every initial application be stamped with a number with name withheld until the final face to face stages? You might end up with 100% Mbodos that way if they were the best applications. |
Your point might have some validity if the policy was that only a black candidate could be appointed. But it isn't.
I can't see why anyone could possibly think a black person only got a job because they were black under the Rooney rule. It's totally illogical. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 15:58 - Jan 10 with 4126 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 15:47 - Jan 10 by Lord_Lucan |
You see this is where I think the whole thing is completely stupid ------if what you are saying is actually what happens.
On your application form you tick white, black, Asian etc, then for the final face to face one bod must be a BAME.
My old best mucker (RIP) was called David Harwood and he was as black as your hat. How would he be discriminated against with a name like that? The panel or board wouldn't know he was black so even if they were unintentionally avoiding black candidates for the final interview they would have no idea David was black
What about someone called Mbodo Ackybyski I hear you ask. This is where I can see a point with a guaranteed ethnic candidate but the whole thing does not sit very well with me at all. If Mbodo actually got the job there would always be people thinking that he got the job unfairly, he might well be thinking the same thing himself. The whole thing reeks of tokenism.
If unintentional racism exists (and I can accept that it does) why can't every initial application be stamped with a number with name withheld until the final face to face stages? You might end up with 100% Mbodos that way if they were the best applications. |
You make the mistake of falling back on your personal experience and/or what you think. But you just don't know enough about the subject.
Here's the result of the academies trial that they carried out:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/42178440
I think they do carry out the anonymous applications in many normal environments but with football being such a small world it's probably much too easy to identify candidates from their CV. In any case, there also needs to be the transparency of BAME applicants being seen to be interviewed, such is the poor representation in the game. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 16:05 - Jan 10 with 4098 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 15:41 - Jan 10 by Superfrans |
I'm absolutely not (and wasn't) suggesting you were racist. I think you misread the point I was making.
I simply was trying to point out that the comment you made (that an interview panel made up of people of Indian descent would be most likely to view a successful candidate in their own image, ie of Indian descent) supported the basic need for the Rooney rule.
I think the comment you made (which I read as an observation, not evidence of racism by you) was a correct one. And that, equally, a majority white interview panel would probably be most likely to visualise a successful candidate who is white.
FWIW I think it is also possibly true that an all female interview panel is more likely to visualise a successful female candidate than an all-male candidate, all other things being equal. Naturally, we all gravitate towards what we know and understand best - and I wouldn't say that's necessarily racist or sexist, I would say that that's human nature.
In fact, the likelihood is that it would begin earlier than that - in the process of selecting candidates from interview stage.
The Rooney rule is all about trying to ensure that non-white candidates get a shot at an interview. This puts such candidates into the process and gives them a chance of proving their case. The other thing it does, of course, if raises it on the agenda of the panel and ensures that they are aware of their potential prejudice, which most surely be a good thing.
Apologies for not answering last night. It wasn't to swerve the debate, but I didn't know how to say I think you've misunderstood me without you thinking I was suggesting you were being a bit thick. I wasn't trying to suggest that. I suspect it was probably my unclear communication...
On your question, I don't know. There would have to be some way of identifying ethnicity, I guess. A tick box would seem obvious - but I suspect it would be more subtle than, "white" or "other"... ;-)
There are lots of surveys which ask you to identify your ethnicity and offer a range of a dozen or more options. In practice, of course, for roles such as these, it would be more straightforward. Many candidates would be known to the FA, not least because they would have to have gone through the formal coach training processes and would be on some database/register which would be available to the FA. [Post edited 10 Jan 2018 15:42]
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I didn't take offence from you SF as you seem a straight up guy.
To be honest I think it is you that may have misread things.
"I simply was trying to point out that the comment you made (that an interview panel made up of people of Indian descent would be most likely to view a successful candidate in their own image, ie of Indian descent) supported the basic need for the Rooney rule."
I really never said anything of the sort.
Koont was talking about the lack of black managers and asked people to imagine in your head a successful manager - referring to the fact that everyone would think of a white guy. I replied that a white guy would think of a white guy, Indian and Indian and so on. I may have misinterpreted his point as I suggested that everyone would imagine the successful manager in his own image - a sort of boyhood dream.
What I think Koont was trying to say was that everyone would imagine a white guy regardless. I still fail to see the point he was making because in that instance everyone would think of a successful manager and there aren't really any (that I know) successful black football managers. On the same basis in Koonts example if I was asked to imagine a successful 100m sprinter I am going to picture a black man. I'm not really sure what he was trying to prove really.
Anyhoo, I have genuinely got to crack on with some work now as I'm running out of time but I'll pop back in to have a look tonight.
Tally ho. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 16:15 - Jan 10 with 4067 views | Superfrans |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 16:05 - Jan 10 by Lord_Lucan |
I didn't take offence from you SF as you seem a straight up guy.
To be honest I think it is you that may have misread things.
"I simply was trying to point out that the comment you made (that an interview panel made up of people of Indian descent would be most likely to view a successful candidate in their own image, ie of Indian descent) supported the basic need for the Rooney rule."
I really never said anything of the sort.
Koont was talking about the lack of black managers and asked people to imagine in your head a successful manager - referring to the fact that everyone would think of a white guy. I replied that a white guy would think of a white guy, Indian and Indian and so on. I may have misinterpreted his point as I suggested that everyone would imagine the successful manager in his own image - a sort of boyhood dream.
What I think Koont was trying to say was that everyone would imagine a white guy regardless. I still fail to see the point he was making because in that instance everyone would think of a successful manager and there aren't really any (that I know) successful black football managers. On the same basis in Koonts example if I was asked to imagine a successful 100m sprinter I am going to picture a black man. I'm not really sure what he was trying to prove really.
Anyhoo, I have genuinely got to crack on with some work now as I'm running out of time but I'll pop back in to have a look tonight.
Tally ho. |
Fair enough. Although I have to say, I do think my point stands.
This from your last post:
"Koont was talking about the lack of black managers and asked people to imagine in your head a successful manager - referring to the fact that everyone would think of a white guy. I replied that a white guy would think of a white guy, Indian and Indian and so on. I may have misinterpreted his point as I suggested that everyone would imagine the successful manager in his own image - a sort of boyhood dream."
I agree that there is indeed something in your reply. This projection of a reflection of yourself/oneself as the successful candidate is precisely why the Rooney rule is needed - an all-white panel is most likely to choose a white candidate as coach.
Does that make sense?? | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 16:53 - Jan 10 with 3994 views | GlasgowBlue |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 21:41 - Jan 9 by Superfrans |
My point is, the reason it is important to put non-white candidates in front of all-white selection boards is because a all-white selection board will most likely visualise the successful candidate as white.
Putting non-white candidates in front of such boards gives those candidates an opportunity to sway them. It also flags the issue and encourages the all-white boards to consider their own (perhaps natural) prejudice. |
Why would an all white selection board visualise the successful candidate as being white?
That is utter nonsense and assumes discrimination that doesn’t exist.
There is enough racism and discrimination in the world without making it up. |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 17:01 - Jan 10 with 4027 views | Superfrans |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 16:53 - Jan 10 by GlasgowBlue |
Why would an all white selection board visualise the successful candidate as being white?
That is utter nonsense and assumes discrimination that doesn’t exist.
There is enough racism and discrimination in the world without making it up. |
I long since ignored you because I found your posts so tiresome (your comment here being a great example of unnecessarily trying to pick a fight), but I came onto the site while logged out - and do still seem to comment. Odd that.
If you care to, please look back through the thread and you'll see I'm repeating back a point that someone else made, which I happen to think has something to it. I don't think it happens in all cases, but it can and (I'm sure) does happen. That's all. No biggie.
Cheers. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 17:32 - Jan 10 with 3999 views | eireblue |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 16:53 - Jan 10 by GlasgowBlue |
Why would an all white selection board visualise the successful candidate as being white?
That is utter nonsense and assumes discrimination that doesn’t exist.
There is enough racism and discrimination in the world without making it up. |
Probably why it is called unconscious or implicit bias. | | | |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:27 - Jan 10 with 3970 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 15:50 - Jan 10 by eireblue |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias
Have a look at your first post.
Why wouldn't a female be able to manage a football team?
The best person should get the job.
The purpose of such things is to address unconscious bias.
Ada Lovelace is recognised as the first computer programmer.
Don't see many techies like her nowadays. |
Where have I said a women could not manage a football team?
Whether I think they could or not is irrelevant, I simply haven't said it.
I have addressed unconscious bias when I suggested that initial applications (we are talking about all jobs here) should be name free. If that isn't an ideal solution then I don't know what is.
I can't see how guaranteeing one BAME candidate through to a final interview is better than a complete 100% name free initial application process. If the panel were either racist or inadvertently racist my method wins hands down. There is a likelihood of a greater proportion of final stage BAME applicants | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:39 - Jan 10 with 3959 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:27 - Jan 10 by Lord_Lucan |
Where have I said a women could not manage a football team?
Whether I think they could or not is irrelevant, I simply haven't said it.
I have addressed unconscious bias when I suggested that initial applications (we are talking about all jobs here) should be name free. If that isn't an ideal solution then I don't know what is.
I can't see how guaranteeing one BAME candidate through to a final interview is better than a complete 100% name free initial application process. If the panel were either racist or inadvertently racist my method wins hands down. There is a likelihood of a greater proportion of final stage BAME applicants |
Because in the small world of football the group of applicants is too specialized and too intimately known for that to work well. Plus that means there isn't the transparency and the conscious consideration of "other' candidates which are additional beneficial effects.
No-one is saying that the anonymous route doesn't work in other areas where people are processing hundreds or thousands of qualified applicants. [Post edited 10 Jan 2018 18:43]
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:45 - Jan 10 with 3946 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:27 - Jan 10 by Lord_Lucan |
Where have I said a women could not manage a football team?
Whether I think they could or not is irrelevant, I simply haven't said it.
I have addressed unconscious bias when I suggested that initial applications (we are talking about all jobs here) should be name free. If that isn't an ideal solution then I don't know what is.
I can't see how guaranteeing one BAME candidate through to a final interview is better than a complete 100% name free initial application process. If the panel were either racist or inadvertently racist my method wins hands down. There is a likelihood of a greater proportion of final stage BAME applicants |
A name free process doesn’t really work in football though
For example, an applicant has on his CV: Current Role - Ipswich Town manager
Hmm |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:47 - Jan 10 with 3942 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 15:50 - Jan 10 by Superfrans |
Getting an interview is no guarantee of getting a job, its a guarantee of getting a chance of showing you are relevant for a job.
This whole thing seems to be being misunderstood though. The FA proposal is to bring in the Rooney rule at various levels of recruitment, as it should be - it isn't about just the England manager, that would be nuts. The aim is to help facilitate a balanced recruitment policy, balanced across a range of ethnic backgrounds. At the moment there is clearly no balance - the vast majority of recruits are white.
Having non-white faces in lower coaching positions allows for a flow of non-white faces into higher coaching positions and then into the top jobs. This is important for lots of reasons, not least ensuring that young non-white footballers feel included, feel part of the process.
At Ipswich, we've been pretty good at a coaching level, we've had the likes of Dozzell, Titus, Kieron all involved in youth coaching, as well as Terry Connor as first team coach. I would imagine that a young talented black kid might well be encouraged to join a club which is as inclusive as that, which can only help a club which is so reliant on young players as we are. |
Think the England manager thing has stolen the headlines from what is a good initiative personally
The FA couldn’t win on that one to be fair. Including the England manager was always going to grab the headlines, but by the same token had they only brought it in further down the chain they’d have been panned for not including it | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:52 - Jan 10 with 3937 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:45 - Jan 10 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
A name free process doesn’t really work in football though
For example, an applicant has on his CV: Current Role - Ipswich Town manager
Hmm |
Or even as a coach and then you give details of your playing career:
Aston Villa
Manchester Utd
Blackburn Rovers
50+ caps for Trinidad and Tobago
I'm sure those living and breathing lower league football also know who's who with just a few details. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:02 - Jan 10 with 3919 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:52 - Jan 10 by Darth_Koont |
Or even as a coach and then you give details of your playing career:
Aston Villa
Manchester Utd
Blackburn Rovers
50+ caps for Trinidad and Tobago
I'm sure those living and breathing lower league football also know who's who with just a few details. |
The thread moved away from football on page 1 for crying out loud. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:17 - Jan 10 with 3910 views | Superfrans |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 18:27 - Jan 10 by Lord_Lucan |
Where have I said a women could not manage a football team?
Whether I think they could or not is irrelevant, I simply haven't said it.
I have addressed unconscious bias when I suggested that initial applications (we are talking about all jobs here) should be name free. If that isn't an ideal solution then I don't know what is.
I can't see how guaranteeing one BAME candidate through to a final interview is better than a complete 100% name free initial application process. If the panel were either racist or inadvertently racist my method wins hands down. There is a likelihood of a greater proportion of final stage BAME applicants |
In a sector which is clearly wildly unrepresentative, this move shows to prospective non-white candidates that the FA takes the issue seriously, which will encourage them to apply - and also places the issue firmly on agenda for those involved in the early stages of the recruitment process | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:17 - Jan 10 with 3910 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:02 - Jan 10 by Lord_Lucan |
The thread moved away from football on page 1 for crying out loud. |
The thread has moved wherever you've been trying to take it.
What's the problem? And why do you care so much about your own entirely personal view?
I bet you've also got opinions on #metoo and where women are getting it wrong. You just seem to default to your own experience, never mind other people more involved and knowledgeable who have worked on this.
And that's certainly not me. I've just read about it and listened.
For crying out loud. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:37 - Jan 10 with 3880 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:17 - Jan 10 by Darth_Koont |
The thread has moved wherever you've been trying to take it.
What's the problem? And why do you care so much about your own entirely personal view?
I bet you've also got opinions on #metoo and where women are getting it wrong. You just seem to default to your own experience, never mind other people more involved and knowledgeable who have worked on this.
And that's certainly not me. I've just read about it and listened.
For crying out loud. |
Righty ho.
Why do I care about my personal view?
Why wouldn't I?
You don't care about your views then? | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:37 - Jan 10 with 3880 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:02 - Jan 10 by Lord_Lucan |
The thread moved away from football on page 1 for crying out loud. |
Fair enough - agree that makes complete sense in the real world | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:46 - Jan 10 with 3867 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:37 - Jan 10 by Lord_Lucan |
Righty ho.
Why do I care about my personal view?
Why wouldn't I?
You don't care about your views then? |
Of course I do.
But the frustration is that you're clearly a smart guy. But you're also smart enough to be able to live on your wits to ignore and counter more knowledgeable points of view.
There are real studies of cognitive bias. And there are real benefits from the Rooney rule.
Personal and subjective views don't really come into it. They're just not as valid. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:57 - Jan 10 with 3848 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 19:46 - Jan 10 by Darth_Koont |
Of course I do.
But the frustration is that you're clearly a smart guy. But you're also smart enough to be able to live on your wits to ignore and counter more knowledgeable points of view.
There are real studies of cognitive bias. And there are real benefits from the Rooney rule.
Personal and subjective views don't really come into it. They're just not as valid. |
I think we've done this to death - and it's my year end and I'm trying to get the books in order before I send them to the launderette.
The stupid thing is we agree with the same thing (to an extent) but in different ways.
Shall we call it a day? I'm going to try and finish up and then go for a pint. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 20:05 - Jan 10 with 3837 views | RoyKeanesDog |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 15:47 - Jan 10 by Lord_Lucan |
You see this is where I think the whole thing is completely stupid ------if what you are saying is actually what happens.
On your application form you tick white, black, Asian etc, then for the final face to face one bod must be a BAME.
My old best mucker (RIP) was called David Harwood and he was as black as your hat. How would he be discriminated against with a name like that? The panel or board wouldn't know he was black so even if they were unintentionally avoiding black candidates for the final interview they would have no idea David was black
What about someone called Mbodo Ackybyski I hear you ask. This is where I can see a point with a guaranteed ethnic candidate but the whole thing does not sit very well with me at all. If Mbodo actually got the job there would always be people thinking that he got the job unfairly, he might well be thinking the same thing himself. The whole thing reeks of tokenism.
If unintentional racism exists (and I can accept that it does) why can't every initial application be stamped with a number with name withheld until the final face to face stages? You might end up with 100% Mbodos that way if they were the best applications. |
They'll probably work out your ethnicity from what ethnicity you select when applying for the job. |  |
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