| I've not been following the British coverage... 14:54 - Jun 19 with 5452 views | SpruceMoose |
... but do my fellow posters agree with the premise of this article? Could it be another example of women having to work twice as hard as their male colleagues to just get the same credit?
https://www.theguardian.com/football/shortcuts/2018/jun/18/eni-aluko-alex-scott- |  |
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:39 - Jun 19 with 1925 views | SpruceMoose |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:35 - Jun 19 by Marshalls_Mullet |
I suspect film critics and food critics would be better at their job if they had a top level professional background.
Would I take more notice of what Martin Scorsese had to say about a film than say Jonathan Ross or Claudia Winkleman.
.....erm, yup. |
You've chosen two awful examples there. How about using Roger Ebert or Pauline Kael? | |
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:42 - Jun 19 with 1923 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:39 - Jun 19 by SpruceMoose |
You've chosen two awful examples there. How about using Roger Ebert or Pauline Kael? |
Ebert - Screenwriter and author. Relevant professional experience.
Kael - Wrote plays and worked in experimental film. Relevant professional experience.
To be fair, Id still listen to Scorsese ahead of them.
P.S. You chose awful examples in Lawro, Savage and Sutton.... [Post edited 19 Jun 2018 15:42]
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:43 - Jun 19 with 1922 views | SpruceMoose |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:38 - Jun 19 by Marshalls_Mullet |
I get that, and agree with it.
But that counts for the men too, some of them will have had it easier than others.
And why is it OK for a journo to 'applaud' Aluko, but not OK for Evra to do it. Yes I realise it was a bit patronising, but the journo is doing the same thing. |
They will still have the safety net of being a man and the extra credibility that brings.
The very fact that this is even a discussion point shows that women start off at a disadvantage. | |
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:45 - Jun 19 with 1919 views | SpruceMoose |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:42 - Jun 19 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Ebert - Screenwriter and author. Relevant professional experience.
Kael - Wrote plays and worked in experimental film. Relevant professional experience.
To be fair, Id still listen to Scorsese ahead of them.
P.S. You chose awful examples in Lawro, Savage and Sutton.... [Post edited 19 Jun 2018 15:42]
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You seem to be broadening your definition of relevant professional experience now. | |
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:45 - Jun 19 with 1919 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:43 - Jun 19 by SpruceMoose |
They will still have the safety net of being a man and the extra credibility that brings.
The very fact that this is even a discussion point shows that women start off at a disadvantage. |
Its a discussion point because a female journalist raised the issue and made a sweeping statement about male pundits. Some of whom were working in the second language, which is very commendable in itself. | |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:46 - Jun 19 with 1913 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:45 - Jun 19 by SpruceMoose |
You seem to be broadening your definition of relevant professional experience now. |
Ha ha. Nice try.
I stand by my point and my two living examples. | |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:49 - Jun 19 with 1914 views | SpruceMoose |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:45 - Jun 19 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Its a discussion point because a female journalist raised the issue and made a sweeping statement about male pundits. Some of whom were working in the second language, which is very commendable in itself. |
The female journalist is not the person raising this for the first time is she? As I said, this is a common discussion point. It's been discussed previously on here. She's responding to criticism and patronising attitudes that he female pundits have been on the receiving end of, both on and off screen.
I also wouldn't call have the bare minimum skills required to do your job commendable myself, so I'm not sure what having a working grasp of English has to do with it. | |
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:50 - Jun 19 with 1915 views | Ftnfwest |
not really, keown gets hammered (most of the time quite rightly like last night) for his 'punditry/co-commentary'. i think male ex players are there to be shot at far more mainly due to the club partisanship of viewers, but admittedly not because of their gender. |  | | |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:52 - Jun 19 with 1912 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:49 - Jun 19 by SpruceMoose |
The female journalist is not the person raising this for the first time is she? As I said, this is a common discussion point. It's been discussed previously on here. She's responding to criticism and patronising attitudes that he female pundits have been on the receiving end of, both on and off screen.
I also wouldn't call have the bare minimum skills required to do your job commendable myself, so I'm not sure what having a working grasp of English has to do with it. |
I've not seen any criticism of the pundits based on their gender. So I'm not sure whether she was responding to criticism. Maybe just criticism she assumed might be there.
I think speaking a second language fluently is commendable, no worries if you dont.
Its a world cup, so it would be strange just to employ English pundits. | |
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| As far as I'm concerned if you are crap..... on 15:53 - Jun 19 with 1912 views | Bloots |
....at the job you are being employed to do then it doesn't matter if you've got knockers or a wanger.
It also helps to have the ability to not listen to "expert summarisers" whenever possible.
You tend to not get wound up about them then. |  |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:57 - Jun 19 with 1903 views | SpruceMoose |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:52 - Jun 19 by Marshalls_Mullet |
I've not seen any criticism of the pundits based on their gender. So I'm not sure whether she was responding to criticism. Maybe just criticism she assumed might be there.
I think speaking a second language fluently is commendable, no worries if you dont.
Its a world cup, so it would be strange just to employ English pundits. |
If it is a minimum requirement to do you job it's not commendable. Evra spent a large bulk of his career in the UK anyway, so I should hope he gained a working knowledge of English.
Why would they put a person who couldn't speak English on as a pundit? Speaking English for a pundit is the '5 GCSE' requirement of the punditry world. They may as well stick 12th_man on there if they were going down that route... | |
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:59 - Jun 19 with 1900 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:57 - Jun 19 by SpruceMoose |
If it is a minimum requirement to do you job it's not commendable. Evra spent a large bulk of his career in the UK anyway, so I should hope he gained a working knowledge of English.
Why would they put a person who couldn't speak English on as a pundit? Speaking English for a pundit is the '5 GCSE' requirement of the punditry world. They may as well stick 12th_man on there if they were going down that route... |
As I said. Happy to agree to differ on that one. Working in a second language will always make life more difficult, especially if you job is to articulate your views.
And I haven't seen Evra's punditry yet, so I have no idea whether he is any good or not.
But I doubt hes any good as hes a man so doesnt do any homework. | |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 16:10 - Jun 19 with 1893 views | SpruceMoose |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:59 - Jun 19 by Marshalls_Mullet |
As I said. Happy to agree to differ on that one. Working in a second language will always make life more difficult, especially if you job is to articulate your views.
And I haven't seen Evra's punditry yet, so I have no idea whether he is any good or not.
But I doubt hes any good as hes a man so doesnt do any homework. |
To bring this back round to some kind of conclusion I'm with you on on that people should be judged by their merits. I guess we differ on some other points, but I enjoyed the pleasant debate.
Let us be a shining example to the TWTD community! | |
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 16:28 - Jun 19 with 1887 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:16 - Jun 19 by SpruceMoose |
It's not distasteful. Are you telling me the likes of Savage, Lawrenson and Sutton are spending the hours honing their craft? They are there because of the old boys club. |
I guess the counter argument would be that the men are ex pro footballers and the women are like having ex amature men commentating.
My opinion is that I don’t really care as I always pause and fast forward the commentry except for when Alex Scott is on |  | | |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 16:29 - Jun 19 with 1891 views | J2BLUE |
Scott is excellent. Can't comment on Aluko, haven't seen her yet but she's played over 100 games for England. No reason either of them shouldn't be pundits. |  |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 16:33 - Jun 19 with 1886 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 16:29 - Jun 19 by J2BLUE |
Scott is excellent. Can't comment on Aluko, haven't seen her yet but she's played over 100 games for England. No reason either of them shouldn't be pundits. |
Come on l, Scott isn’t excellent but she’s no worse than most of the men. She’s not particularly insightful though. Have t seen aluko either | | | |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 16:41 - Jun 19 with 1878 views | J2BLUE |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 16:33 - Jun 19 by FrowsyArmLarry |
Come on l, Scott isn’t excellent but she’s no worse than most of the men. She’s not particularly insightful though. Have t seen aluko either |
IMO she is. The best pundit BBC have had for the world cup. | |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 22:38 - Jun 19 with 1837 views | tcblue |
It seems the point has been somewhat lost into a discussion about individual meritocracy.
The point is, these women get scrutiny because of their gender, or in spite of it. None of the blokes have that additional hurdle. We can talk around that point all we like, and how gender doesn't matter to us as well-adjusted humans but it does to a LOT of people who criticise.
The same went for Jacqui Oatley when she first started commentating on MoTD. There were a lot of dismissive criticism because she was different and obviously a female voice where it had been only men. Not based solely on merit (ironically enough I'm pretty sure she was the most qualified - literally, she has coaching badges - of all the MoTD commentators of late). |  | | |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 22:46 - Jun 19 with 1834 views | jeera |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:16 - Jun 19 by SpruceMoose |
It's not distasteful. Are you telling me the likes of Savage, Lawrenson and Sutton are spending the hours honing their craft? They are there because of the old boys club. |
I shan't be happy until Grayson Perry is responsible for the half time summary. |  |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 07:29 - Jun 20 with 1783 views | Superfrans |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:19 - Jun 19 by Marshalls_Mullet |
I have no reason to suspect that they don't put any time in.
...and I have no reason to write all men off in one generalist statement. |
It’s a reflection on past World Cups particularly, when pundits (who have all happened to be male) have openly mocked those doing their research or laughed about their ignorance, almost bragging that they know nothing about the players from a country like Costa Rica or South Korea. Many of the big name pundits have tended to turn up preparing to give an opinion (as if it is somehow woven in gold), without doing any cursory research.
Scott and Aluko have clearly done their research and have both been consistently more insightful than their male counterparts.
Why is their gender highlighted? Because they’re the first two female pundits employed by any broadcaster - which proportionally is still way lower than it should be. |  |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 08:17 - Jun 20 with 1777 views | Pinewoodblue |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 07:29 - Jun 20 by Superfrans |
It’s a reflection on past World Cups particularly, when pundits (who have all happened to be male) have openly mocked those doing their research or laughed about their ignorance, almost bragging that they know nothing about the players from a country like Costa Rica or South Korea. Many of the big name pundits have tended to turn up preparing to give an opinion (as if it is somehow woven in gold), without doing any cursory research.
Scott and Aluko have clearly done their research and have both been consistently more insightful than their male counterparts.
Why is their gender highlighted? Because they’re the first two female pundits employed by any broadcaster - which proportionally is still way lower than it should be. |
It is no coincidence that the best prepared pundits on both channels have been female. It is abundantly clear they have put a lot more effort into their preparation, probably because they feel they have to in a male dominated environment. All the likes of Shearer seem to have done is polished their ego.
If it wasn't for the freshness of the two ladies I wouldn't bother to listen to the punditry.
I'm surprised though how Mullet * seems to have appointed himself as defender of the indefensible. Didn't have him down as someone with closed views, or perhaps he is just doing a Benters and being provocative.
Edit * I do of course mean Marshalls Mullet. [Post edited 20 Jun 2018 8:22]
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 13:01 - Jun 20 with 1751 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 22:38 - Jun 19 by tcblue |
It seems the point has been somewhat lost into a discussion about individual meritocracy.
The point is, these women get scrutiny because of their gender, or in spite of it. None of the blokes have that additional hurdle. We can talk around that point all we like, and how gender doesn't matter to us as well-adjusted humans but it does to a LOT of people who criticise.
The same went for Jacqui Oatley when she first started commentating on MoTD. There were a lot of dismissive criticism because she was different and obviously a female voice where it had been only men. Not based solely on merit (ironically enough I'm pretty sure she was the most qualified - literally, she has coaching badges - of all the MoTD commentators of late). |
They don’t get scrutiny ‘because they’re female’. They get more scrutiny because they haven’t played at that level. Also, the fact that they both happen to be attractive and black makes it seem like a box ticking excercise | | | |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 13:08 - Jun 20 with 1747 views | SpruceMoose |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 13:01 - Jun 20 by FrowsyArmLarry |
They don’t get scrutiny ‘because they’re female’. They get more scrutiny because they haven’t played at that level. Also, the fact that they both happen to be attractive and black makes it seem like a box ticking excercise |
"Also, the fact that they both happen to be attractive and black makes it seem like a box ticking excercise"
Only to those people who spend their lives going round ranting about PC gone mad, constantly panicking that they are missing out on something somewhere because they're a white male. That doesn't cross the minds of the rest of us normal people. | |
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 13:15 - Jun 20 with 1744 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 13:08 - Jun 20 by SpruceMoose |
"Also, the fact that they both happen to be attractive and black makes it seem like a box ticking excercise"
Only to those people who spend their lives going round ranting about PC gone mad, constantly panicking that they are missing out on something somewhere because they're a white male. That doesn't cross the minds of the rest of us normal people. |
You are insane. I prefer them as commentators, but can also understand the reality that’s put them there. You’re the one that’s ranting, as usual | | | |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 13:18 - Jun 20 with 1739 views | SpruceMoose |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 13:15 - Jun 20 by FrowsyArmLarry |
You are insane. I prefer them as commentators, but can also understand the reality that’s put them there. You’re the one that’s ranting, as usual |
Edit - I take it all back. Too harsh. I'm sorry. Not had my coffee yet and Benters distracted me.
Let's just say I fundamentally disagree with you that their appearance is a box ticking exercise. Hopefully most people don't think that way. [Post edited 20 Jun 2018 13:22]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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