| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party 11:17 - May 31 with 19671 views | ElderGrizzly |
I wonder how quickly a member of the NEC is expelled vs someone voting Lib Dem is? |  | | |  |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:35 - Jun 3 with 2019 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:21 - Jun 3 by JETPower |
Accidental misogyny, casual homophobia, inadvertently offending someone's heritage, echoing anti-Semitism. It's easy. Maybe if you are not in any form of minority yourself it is harder to grasp?
What Ann Widdecombe said yesterday was hate speech, an attack. She didn't realise that (probably). It's easily done, and you have to listen to the experience of affected minorities respectfully and without pre-condition, should you want to avoid it. They don't seem to want to. |
If it's accidental it's accidental. It's not an "attack." The word attack implies intent. |  |
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| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:37 - Jun 3 with 2017 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:32 - Jun 3 by JETPower |
I'm going round in circles. You can't see the implications, the inherent tropes, because you don't actively reject them. Those that do, do.
On the MacPherson thing, the proof that perceived hate speech is not hate speech requires evidence. If the evidence is absent or insufficient, as it is on Pete Willsman's 3 claims, it's hate speech.
EDIT: going to work. Chaps, please reflect, honestly. [Post edited 3 Jun 2019 8:34]
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Actually you investigate the evidence before making that decision.
You've misinterpreted the Macpherson principle from the start. And you're now essentially wanting to shut down the debate and any criticism for being automatically antisemitic.
I think you're doing a sterling job of showing how the public debate has become so skewed and unobjective with this kind of thinking. |  |
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| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:38 - Jun 3 with 2009 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:26 - Jun 3 by JETPower |
Downvotes to this might not reflect well on you, but it'll be a handy reference point for the ignore feature.
Not that that's in any way adequate. |
Ignore me then. Take your own advice. The downvote was for the suggestion that anyone on here tolerates or promotes anti-Semitism. I find that offensive. | |
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| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:41 - Jun 3 with 1999 views | JETPower |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:38 - Jun 3 by BrixtonBlue |
Ignore me then. Take your own advice. The downvote was for the suggestion that anyone on here tolerates or promotes anti-Semitism. I find that offensive. |
They just admitted it (though one tried to couch it as 'unfortunate'). Horse to water |  | | |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:41 - Jun 3 with 1997 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:27 - Jun 3 by JETPower |
'Do you have zero tolerance for anti-semitism?' 'No'
That bit. He tolerates anti-Semitism.
I don't. |
Where has he said that? You're literally making things up now!
I think I've been duped and you're a troll. Pretty shameful if true. I'm done here. | |
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| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:43 - Jun 3 with 1993 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:32 - Jun 3 by JETPower |
I'm going round in circles. You can't see the implications, the inherent tropes, because you don't actively reject them. Those that do, do.
On the MacPherson thing, the proof that perceived hate speech is not hate speech requires evidence. If the evidence is absent or insufficient, as it is on Pete Willsman's 3 claims, it's hate speech.
EDIT: going to work. Chaps, please reflect, honestly. [Post edited 3 Jun 2019 8:34]
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Take your own advice. | |
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| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:46 - Jun 3 with 1985 views | JETPower |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:37 - Jun 3 by Darth_Koont |
Actually you investigate the evidence before making that decision.
You've misinterpreted the Macpherson principle from the start. And you're now essentially wanting to shut down the debate and any criticism for being automatically antisemitic.
I think you're doing a sterling job of showing how the public debate has become so skewed and unobjective with this kind of thinking. |
As I said.
A lot of the argument on this thread is 'why do you assume something that sounds like an anti-Semitic trope is false?'. I am pleading with people on this site to not assume something that sounds like an anti-Semitic trope is true.
Your search for prior 'evidence' is based on the above, and affects your judgement and interpretation. That's what you have demonstrated. Many rightly find that offensive.
68 rabbis. Embassy whipping up anti-Semitism as a 'total lie'. Tropes. No conclusive evidence. Hate speech. Attack. | | | |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:47 - Jun 3 with 1982 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:41 - Jun 3 by BrixtonBlue |
Where has he said that? You're literally making things up now!
I think I've been duped and you're a troll. Pretty shameful if true. I'm done here. |
I don't think he's trolling but he certainly seems to be wading in (and wading out) on some pretty odd premises.
I do at least understand where he's coming from now and why we've been miles apart. | |
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| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:48 - Jun 3 with 1976 views | JETPower |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:46 - Jun 3 by JETPower |
As I said.
A lot of the argument on this thread is 'why do you assume something that sounds like an anti-Semitic trope is false?'. I am pleading with people on this site to not assume something that sounds like an anti-Semitic trope is true.
Your search for prior 'evidence' is based on the above, and affects your judgement and interpretation. That's what you have demonstrated. Many rightly find that offensive.
68 rabbis. Embassy whipping up anti-Semitism as a 'total lie'. Tropes. No conclusive evidence. Hate speech. Attack. |
And for legal as well as moral reasons, has no place on a community football forum. | | | |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:52 - Jun 3 with 1964 views | lowhouseblue |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:46 - Jun 3 by JETPower |
As I said.
A lot of the argument on this thread is 'why do you assume something that sounds like an anti-Semitic trope is false?'. I am pleading with people on this site to not assume something that sounds like an anti-Semitic trope is true.
Your search for prior 'evidence' is based on the above, and affects your judgement and interpretation. That's what you have demonstrated. Many rightly find that offensive.
68 rabbis. Embassy whipping up anti-Semitism as a 'total lie'. Tropes. No conclusive evidence. Hate speech. Attack. |
it is hate speech. saying that '68 rabbis "organised" by embassy to complain about "severe" anti-Semitism within Labour' was 'pretty accurate' was spreading an anti-semitic trope. saying that he has no evidence for it being 'pretty accurate' is not an excuse. posting that '"And it's no secret that most UK Jewish organisations and many prominent representatives promote Israel's interests. " is both promoting an anti-Semitic trope and breach of the definition of anti-Semitism accepted in the uk. his excuse that it's true because it's what those people do, is appalling.
I have no idea why twtd is happy to have this stuff on the site. lot's of people have explained why it's offensive and yet it's still here. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:54 - Jun 3 with 1951 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:48 - Jun 3 by JETPower |
And for legal as well as moral reasons, has no place on a community football forum. |
You remind me of a player we used to have....had an incredibly powerful shot but never on target....at best he would hit the crossbar and the ball would head back towards him at an amazing velocity! |  |
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| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:56 - Jun 3 with 1941 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:46 - Jun 3 by JETPower |
As I said.
A lot of the argument on this thread is 'why do you assume something that sounds like an anti-Semitic trope is false?'. I am pleading with people on this site to not assume something that sounds like an anti-Semitic trope is true.
Your search for prior 'evidence' is based on the above, and affects your judgement and interpretation. That's what you have demonstrated. Many rightly find that offensive.
68 rabbis. Embassy whipping up anti-Semitism as a 'total lie'. Tropes. No conclusive evidence. Hate speech. Attack. |
Sorry, you're wrong.
I took his comments as "pretty accurate" because I already knew the evidence for much of what he was talking about. The only digging I had to do was to understand what could be behind his third claim re: the rabbis' letter. But I've been clear that this needs evidence of its own even if the close connection to the JLM is already established.
You seem to have come on here to shut down the debate from the start because of a faulty premise that discussion of evidence was antisemitic because a hate crime had already been committed due to your narrow and incorrect reading of it. No, a hate crime hasn't been committed until that is proven by looking at the evidence. | |
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| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 09:01 - Jun 3 with 1922 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:52 - Jun 3 by lowhouseblue |
it is hate speech. saying that '68 rabbis "organised" by embassy to complain about "severe" anti-Semitism within Labour' was 'pretty accurate' was spreading an anti-semitic trope. saying that he has no evidence for it being 'pretty accurate' is not an excuse. posting that '"And it's no secret that most UK Jewish organisations and many prominent representatives promote Israel's interests. " is both promoting an anti-Semitic trope and breach of the definition of anti-Semitism accepted in the uk. his excuse that it's true because it's what those people do, is appalling.
I have no idea why twtd is happy to have this stuff on the site. lot's of people have explained why it's offensive and yet it's still here. |
See above.
And you know that I didn't say the third claim about the rabbis was true. So please stop being incredibly inaccurate with my words. | |
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| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 09:17 - Jun 3 with 1886 views | lowhouseblue |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 09:01 - Jun 3 by Darth_Koont |
See above.
And you know that I didn't say the third claim about the rabbis was true. So please stop being incredibly inaccurate with my words. |
you said it was 'pretty accurate'. but lying goes well with your other attitudes.
you wanted to support someone who had just been suspended from the labour party for being anti-semitic. your 'pretty accurate' didn't have any if or buts attached because you wanted to back up willsman. you think you're very clever by the worming and back tracking, but you've done this far too many times for anyone to have any real doubt about you.
this is a dreadful thread and i'm done with it. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 09:20 - Jun 3 with 1875 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 09:17 - Jun 3 by lowhouseblue |
you said it was 'pretty accurate'. but lying goes well with your other attitudes.
you wanted to support someone who had just been suspended from the labour party for being anti-semitic. your 'pretty accurate' didn't have any if or buts attached because you wanted to back up willsman. you think you're very clever by the worming and back tracking, but you've done this far too many times for anyone to have any real doubt about you.
this is a dreadful thread and i'm done with it. |
I never said that specific claim was pretty accurate. So you're lying now.
Yes, please leave. You've been useless and dangerous on this thread from start to finish. | |
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| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 10:52 - Jun 3 with 1814 views | JETPower |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 09:20 - Jun 3 by Darth_Koont |
I never said that specific claim was pretty accurate. So you're lying now.
Yes, please leave. You've been useless and dangerous on this thread from start to finish. |
We can read. I'm leaving this, and the board as a whole until something is done about it. Been on here for more than 20 years. Think on that, please. Virulent anti-Semitism in our midst, and I can't abide it any longer. | | | |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:33 - Jun 3 with 1793 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 10:52 - Jun 3 by JETPower |
We can read. I'm leaving this, and the board as a whole until something is done about it. Been on here for more than 20 years. Think on that, please. Virulent anti-Semitism in our midst, and I can't abide it any longer. |
I think that sounds a good idea. I'm getting tired of your accusations too. | |
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| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 13:04 - Jun 3 with 1647 views | giant_stow |
I wonder what his angle will be if he really does sue. |  |
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| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 13:07 - Jun 3 with 1637 views | phillymark |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 07:42 - Jun 3 by Darth_Koont |
Of course, your perception is valid and has to be addressed and not ignored. But there's still an objective discussion of whether something is valid using evidence.
That's the Macpherson principle. It doesn't mean that once someone says something is antisemitic, racist or homophobic etc. it is and case closed. |
From what I can see here (obviously a very limited sample size), I don't think you are an antisemite. I certainly believe that you don't believe you are an antisemite. However, as a Jew who is, I think a reasonable voice in my community, I do think you fall into the mix of people who dismiss Jewish concerns too quickly - why? I think this is the point - Take a look at the amount of security necessary at all Jewish institutions nowadays and the amount of violent attacks against us in so many countries and I hope you'll try to sympathise a little more about how we worry about how what you might consider to be innocent statements, for us actually foster additional hatred. If you do this, then I hope you will be more careful with words about Jews and their beliefs. |  | | |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 13:25 - Jun 3 with 1608 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 08:14 - Jun 3 by BrixtonBlue |
Yes. I have zero tolerance for antisemitism. I don't try to find it where it doesn't exist either. You can't just twist everything to make it look antisemitic!
He didn't remotely say anything about the Jews controlling the media. |
“Yes. I have zero tolerance for antisemitism”
So you’re not the BrixtonBlue who has been dismissing the complaints of antisentism against the Labour Party over the past four years from British Jews as “smears”? |  |
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| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 13:41 - Jun 3 with 1590 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 13:07 - Jun 3 by phillymark |
From what I can see here (obviously a very limited sample size), I don't think you are an antisemite. I certainly believe that you don't believe you are an antisemite. However, as a Jew who is, I think a reasonable voice in my community, I do think you fall into the mix of people who dismiss Jewish concerns too quickly - why? I think this is the point - Take a look at the amount of security necessary at all Jewish institutions nowadays and the amount of violent attacks against us in so many countries and I hope you'll try to sympathise a little more about how we worry about how what you might consider to be innocent statements, for us actually foster additional hatred. If you do this, then I hope you will be more careful with words about Jews and their beliefs. |
Cheers. And yes, I do take on board what you're saying.
There's no place for antisemitism in civilized society. I'm conscious of the antisemitic threat to the Jewish community and I even understand much of why Israel acts like it does living with the threat from its enemies.
So I know I have to walk a fine and respectful line when talking about what I perceive are actions that go too far and against the wrong targets. But I think if we're not honest and transparent then we're actually causing more long-term issues and fuelling the distrust of the Jew-haters and I think we also risk enabling islamophobia and poor treatment of Palestinians in its place too.
Unfortunately, my perspective is that the fight against antisemitism has become increasingly dominated by political and national interests that go against the core of that struggle. And it's why we're seeing even a big divide in the Jewish community about this. So, I think it's important to be able talk openly about that without getting attacked and silenced. | |
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| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 14:15 - Jun 3 with 1553 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 13:25 - Jun 3 by GlasgowBlue |
“Yes. I have zero tolerance for antisemitism”
So you’re not the BrixtonBlue who has been dismissing the complaints of antisentism against the Labour Party over the past four years from British Jews as “smears”? |
Show me where I've dismissed an actual case of antisemitism as a smear. | |
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| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 15:27 - Jun 3 with 1512 views | phillymark |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 13:41 - Jun 3 by Darth_Koont |
Cheers. And yes, I do take on board what you're saying.
There's no place for antisemitism in civilized society. I'm conscious of the antisemitic threat to the Jewish community and I even understand much of why Israel acts like it does living with the threat from its enemies.
So I know I have to walk a fine and respectful line when talking about what I perceive are actions that go too far and against the wrong targets. But I think if we're not honest and transparent then we're actually causing more long-term issues and fuelling the distrust of the Jew-haters and I think we also risk enabling islamophobia and poor treatment of Palestinians in its place too.
Unfortunately, my perspective is that the fight against antisemitism has become increasingly dominated by political and national interests that go against the core of that struggle. And it's why we're seeing even a big divide in the Jewish community about this. So, I think it's important to be able talk openly about that without getting attacked and silenced. |
Appreciate the thoughtful response. I think you'll find more consensus within the Jewish community about antisemitism than you think - read someone like Jonathan Freedland. I know plenty of mainstream Labour supporting Jews who feel so betrayed. | | | |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 15:43 - Jun 3 with 1498 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 15:27 - Jun 3 by phillymark |
Appreciate the thoughtful response. I think you'll find more consensus within the Jewish community about antisemitism than you think - read someone like Jonathan Freedland. I know plenty of mainstream Labour supporting Jews who feel so betrayed. |
I think Jonathan Freedland is probably not the most representative. Certainly there are quite a few "dissenting" Jews who see him as leading the charge.
But sure, it's important to read both sides. Unfortunately the most outspoken are often heavily stuck in their views so often difficult to see where the balance should be. | |
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