| Why not Jackson 10:55 - Sep 17 with 4270 views | wkj |
I have seen a fair few people posting fantasy line ups omitting Jackson from the team, I find that a little odd as he's probably been more industrious than Norwood, while both have been good, no doubt. Is the draw vs Donny really that much of a flinch we would risk dropping one of our best players for a new system? |  |
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| Why not Jackson on 11:50 - Sep 17 with 908 views | lmfcblue |
| Why not Jackson on 11:20 - Sep 17 by Herbivore |
But if you have wingers hugging the touchline in a 4-3-3 you have just one very isolated striker. In a 4-2-3-1 you at least have a number 10 centrally to support the main striker. If anything it's more essential for the wide forwards to support the front man in a 4-3-3 otherwise they become really cut adrift. |
yeah spot on that, it has to be 4.2.3.1 over a 4.3.3 |  | | |
| Why not Jackson on 11:50 - Sep 17 with 912 views | itfcjoe |
| Why not Jackson on 11:42 - Sep 17 by StokieBlue |
There is no evidence that Jackson is good off the bench. There is far more evidence that he's been more effective when he's started games (such as this season).
You can't just say someone is fast and thus will be better later in the game against allegedly tired players.
SB |
The same AFC game which suggests we should never play 433 again?
Also scored off the bench a couple of times last year - Millwall was one |  |
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| Why not Jackson on 11:51 - Sep 17 with 910 views | homer_123 |
| Why not Jackson on 11:46 - Sep 17 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
Kenlock can't have been that bad considering we have only conceded 4 goals all season, why change the defence?
In answer to your other point about Edwards not being a goalscorer. Edwards who was our top scorer last season scoring 6 goals from the wing in a team that didnt score? |
We conceded 4 in spite of Kenlocke though.
On Saturday his passing and decision making meant we lost possession many times and in a lot of instances in very dangerous places.
He wins a lots in the air for a LB and his defending at the death saved us a point but he's off form and Chambers and Wolfy have been having to cover for him - he could do with a break. |  |
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| Why not Jackson on 11:52 - Sep 17 with 909 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
| Why not Jackson on 11:48 - Sep 17 by homer_123 |
Had Kenlock been showing any kind of form then I'd say leave Kenlock at LB and pop Garbutt back in at LM ahead of Judge.
However, Kenlocke has been very poor and could do with a break. Garbutt is a natural alternative in that position to Kenlocke and therefore seems eminently sensible to pop him there with someone like Georgiou ahead of him.
Why can the formation to suit players like Nolan and Judge who haven't showed any kind of form and therefore don't warrant such a change.
Stay with 4-4-2 but play a natural winger in the LM role, perm one from Edwards or Rowe at RM. Balanced, with players that will stay in position and formation but with Garbutt and KVY offersa genuine threat down either flank with both being able to get beyond the LM and RM players.
Leaves the spine of the team intact with Downes and Skuse doing well in the middle and continues to allow Norwood and Jackson to develop as a partnership.
I'm not against playing Judge or Nolan in the AM role but neither have shown they really deserve to warrant such an significant change. |
Very harsh on Nolan who hasn't had a pre season and was one of our most improved performers last season? |  |
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| Why not Jackson on 11:54 - Sep 17 with 905 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
| Why not Jackson on 11:51 - Sep 17 by homer_123 |
We conceded 4 in spite of Kenlocke though.
On Saturday his passing and decision making meant we lost possession many times and in a lot of instances in very dangerous places.
He wins a lots in the air for a LB and his defending at the death saved us a point but he's off form and Chambers and Wolfy have been having to cover for him - he could do with a break. |
Admittedly he hasn't been great but he hasn't really had a lot of cover from Judge playing on his wing. If it was Edwards on that side consistently I imagine he would look a lot better ?? | |
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| Why not Jackson on 11:54 - Sep 17 with 898 views | homer_123 |
| Why not Jackson on 11:52 - Sep 17 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
Very harsh on Nolan who hasn't had a pre season and was one of our most improved performers last season? |
Maybe but what has he done to warrant changing the system to suit him?
He came on Saturday and didn't offer anything of note. Sure, he's coming back from injury and needs game time but to change the system to accomodate him now, would be very odd. | |
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| Why not Jackson on 11:57 - Sep 17 with 894 views | homer_123 |
| Why not Jackson on 11:54 - Sep 17 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
Admittedly he hasn't been great but he hasn't really had a lot of cover from Judge playing on his wing. If it was Edwards on that side consistently I imagine he would look a lot better ?? |
Judge is wasted at LM - he is an AM as we know.
He doesn't provide the cover for Kenlock as well as others because he drifts, which is fine if he was effective but at the moment he isn't.
Regardless of cover, take Saturday. The number of times Kenlocke passed the ball directly to the opposition was numerous and in dangerous areas - Judge providing cover or not doesn't account for that.
I like Kenlocke as it happens but I do think he needs a few games rest. | |
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| Why not Jackson on 11:57 - Sep 17 with 891 views | StokieBlue |
| Why not Jackson on 11:46 - Sep 17 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
Kenlock can't have been that bad considering we have only conceded 4 goals all season, why change the defence?
In answer to your other point about Edwards not being a goalscorer. Edwards who was our top scorer last season scoring 6 goals from the wing in a team that didnt score? |
That's a false conclusion.
It's entirely possible for someone to be bad whilst being either lucky to not concede or not factoring in the lesser opposition. He's also offering nothing going forward and giving away possession all the time. Have you seen him this season?
He's still not a goalscorer. Jackson has 4 goals already yet you've decided to drop him.
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| Why not Jackson on 11:58 - Sep 17 with 889 views | StokieBlue |
| Why not Jackson on 11:48 - Sep 17 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
Except of course when he came off the bench against Wimbledon and changed the game. |
I think changing the formation back to 442 and not playing the 433 you are advocating changed the game - not specifically him coming off the bench.
I'd also argue Georgiou coming on and out left had a bigger change even if he didn't score.
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| Why not Jackson on 12:01 - Sep 17 with 881 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
| Why not Jackson on 11:54 - Sep 17 by homer_123 |
Maybe but what has he done to warrant changing the system to suit him?
He came on Saturday and didn't offer anything of note. Sure, he's coming back from injury and needs game time but to change the system to accomodate him now, would be very odd. |
You could argue that he is proven at this level, and with Shrewsbury he was a goal scoring midfielder, which is what we need.
With regards to the Donny game, he came on late in a game where the system we were playing, especially the midfielders was completely ineffective. Downes was poor in that game as well. Skuse was at his best as he needed to keep winning the ball back as we were dominated in midfield. I think he has a huge part to play this season, and the quicker he is up to speed the better. | |
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| Why not Jackson on 12:03 - Sep 17 with 879 views | homer_123 |
| Why not Jackson on 12:01 - Sep 17 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
You could argue that he is proven at this level, and with Shrewsbury he was a goal scoring midfielder, which is what we need.
With regards to the Donny game, he came on late in a game where the system we were playing, especially the midfielders was completely ineffective. Downes was poor in that game as well. Skuse was at his best as he needed to keep winning the ball back as we were dominated in midfield. I think he has a huge part to play this season, and the quicker he is up to speed the better. |
Not saying he isn't proven at this level.
I'm asking, what's he done, recently, to warrant a change of system to accomodate him? Maybe he's blown Lambert away in training and deserves it? Nothing we've seen on the pitch suggests we should.
Same with Judge. [Post edited 17 Sep 2019 12:04]
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| Why not Jackson on 12:05 - Sep 17 with 878 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
| Why not Jackson on 11:57 - Sep 17 by StokieBlue |
That's a false conclusion.
It's entirely possible for someone to be bad whilst being either lucky to not concede or not factoring in the lesser opposition. He's also offering nothing going forward and giving away possession all the time. Have you seen him this season?
He's still not a goalscorer. Jackson has 4 goals already yet you've decided to drop him.
SB |
I don't think he has been 'bad' this season. I don't think any of our players that have featured regularly have been bad. He isn't our best player, but he seems to be this years scapegoat of choice. As long as we are keeping cleansheets, I think keep the defence as is. | |
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| Why not Jackson on 12:08 - Sep 17 with 870 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
| Why not Jackson on 12:03 - Sep 17 by homer_123 |
Not saying he isn't proven at this level.
I'm asking, what's he done, recently, to warrant a change of system to accomodate him? Maybe he's blown Lambert away in training and deserves it? Nothing we've seen on the pitch suggests we should.
Same with Judge. [Post edited 17 Sep 2019 12:04]
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It isn't to do with him. I would change systems for tonight, as it gives some players a chance to rest and we can try a new system. I am not saying that we should put out a weak side. Tonight I would play a 433 or a 4231 and Nolan fits that system perfectly. Give him a game. | |
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| Why not Jackson on 12:08 - Sep 17 with 869 views | StokieBlue |
| Why not Jackson on 12:05 - Sep 17 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
I don't think he has been 'bad' this season. I don't think any of our players that have featured regularly have been bad. He isn't our best player, but he seems to be this years scapegoat of choice. As long as we are keeping cleansheets, I think keep the defence as is. |
Getting quite annoyed at the accusation of "scapegoating" at anyone who dares to criticise one of our players.
The role of the modern full back is not only to defend, they have to get forward as well like Young does. As well as not defending that well in general he gives the ball away all the time going forward. You can't look at defending in isolation and I'd argue even that isn't very good this season.
Shutting down the debate by accusing people of "scapegoating" isn't helpful.
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| Why not Jackson on 12:11 - Sep 17 with 865 views | PhilTWTD |
| Why not Jackson on 11:41 - Sep 17 by StokieBlue |
That is a fair point however we were very rubbish.
Other options are available to try as others have pointed out. It does seem that some people want to change formations just to shoehorn in players who haven't done well thus far at the expense of players who have (see Judge/Jackson).
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But was that necessarily down to the system? |  | | |
| Why not Jackson on 12:12 - Sep 17 with 866 views | Metal_Hacker |
I think it’s to accommodate Judge for some reason
Play our in form players or those deserving a chance , it isn’t offer science |  |
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| Why not Jackson on 12:17 - Sep 17 with 853 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
| Why not Jackson on 12:08 - Sep 17 by StokieBlue |
Getting quite annoyed at the accusation of "scapegoating" at anyone who dares to criticise one of our players.
The role of the modern full back is not only to defend, they have to get forward as well like Young does. As well as not defending that well in general he gives the ball away all the time going forward. You can't look at defending in isolation and I'd argue even that isn't very good this season.
Shutting down the debate by accusing people of "scapegoating" isn't helpful.
SB |
He is the best and only left back at the club. No I didn't watch Garbutt at left back at oxford, but by account of there fans, manager and himself, he wasn't up to standard in that position.
Kenlock going forward is poor, I'm not arguing against that. However, against Wimbledon, I thought he linked up very well with AG down the left hand side. Possibly with a player ahead of him who is willing to stay wide and support him, he may look a better player himself. I just see the criticism very harsh, it is easy to say we are doing well defensively despite him, but we have conceded 4 goals all season. One of them was a howler from Chambo. I find it very harsh to be criticising members of the best defence in the league so far. Modern full backs have to get forward yes, but there job is to defend, give kenlock an actual left winger on his side and I am sure we will see his attacking play improve. | |
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| Why not Jackson on 12:20 - Sep 17 with 849 views | homer_123 |
| Why not Jackson on 12:08 - Sep 17 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
It isn't to do with him. I would change systems for tonight, as it gives some players a chance to rest and we can try a new system. I am not saying that we should put out a weak side. Tonight I would play a 433 or a 4231 and Nolan fits that system perfectly. Give him a game. |
I understand your thinking there - I'm just not convinced by it. | |
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| Why not Jackson on 12:23 - Sep 17 with 848 views | itfcjoe |
| Why not Jackson on 11:49 - Sep 17 by homer_123 |
True but nor should we change to 433 just to accomodate a couple of players who can't really play anywhere else.
If either showed any kind of form - then fine but they haven't. |
It's more to accomodate the areas of the squad where we have the most quality and depth, which is central midfield, it feels as though the squad has been built for that system when you look at the numbers | |
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| Why not Jackson on 12:27 - Sep 17 with 843 views | Herbivore |
| Why not Jackson on 12:17 - Sep 17 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
He is the best and only left back at the club. No I didn't watch Garbutt at left back at oxford, but by account of there fans, manager and himself, he wasn't up to standard in that position.
Kenlock going forward is poor, I'm not arguing against that. However, against Wimbledon, I thought he linked up very well with AG down the left hand side. Possibly with a player ahead of him who is willing to stay wide and support him, he may look a better player himself. I just see the criticism very harsh, it is easy to say we are doing well defensively despite him, but we have conceded 4 goals all season. One of them was a howler from Chambo. I find it very harsh to be criticising members of the best defence in the league so far. Modern full backs have to get forward yes, but there job is to defend, give kenlock an actual left winger on his side and I am sure we will see his attacking play improve. |
How will having a different player ahead of him make him capable of passing to a blue shirt? |  |
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| Why not Jackson on 12:28 - Sep 17 with 847 views | homer_123 |
| Why not Jackson on 12:23 - Sep 17 by itfcjoe |
It's more to accomodate the areas of the squad where we have the most quality and depth, which is central midfield, it feels as though the squad has been built for that system when you look at the numbers |
I don't disagree Joe.
In theory, Judge should be extremely effective in this division when played in that AM, and to a degree Nolan as well (Dozzer and Hughes should also fall into this category).
My main issue is that Judge, especially, hasn't shown any kind of form. Yes, he's been played out of position and is certainly no LM but regardless of that he'snot offered anything of note at all.
In fact, he's not really done much since joining us. In theory we should be building a team around him but for me, at the moment, he doesn't warrant that at all. Nolan hasn't really had enough game time to warrant such a change either.
I'm not against it and we need to be able to mix it up formation and player wise. But 4-4-2, so far, has got us to where it has. It wasn't great Saturday but I'd rather advocate a personnel change than a formation change right now. | |
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| Why not Jackson on 12:29 - Sep 17 with 845 views | homer_123 |
| Why not Jackson on 12:27 - Sep 17 by Herbivore |
How will having a different player ahead of him make him capable of passing to a blue shirt? |
Why not Jackson by homer_123 17 Sep 2019 11:57Judge is wasted at LM - he is an AM as we know.
He doesn't provide the cover for Kenlock as well as others because he drifts, which is fine if he was effective but at the moment he isn't.
Regardless of cover, take Saturday. The number of times Kenlocke passed the ball directly to the opposition was numerous and in dangerous areas - Judge providing cover or not doesn't account for that.
I like Kenlocke as it happens but I do think he needs a few games rest.
"Regardless of cover, take Saturday. The number of times Kenlocke passed the ball directly to the opposition was numerous and in dangerous areas - Judge providing cover or not doesn't account for that." | |
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| Why not Jackson on 12:39 - Sep 17 with 837 views | StokieBlue |
| Why not Jackson on 12:11 - Sep 17 by PhilTWTD |
But was that necessarily down to the system? |
Well any system can of course work with the right players.
On that day it was down to the system and the players deployed though. As soon as we reverted to 442 with the changes we grabbed 2 goals and an unlikely win. When we were 433 the defence had little options to pass to and with the distribution of our defenders that's not ideal.
What would you like to see as the formation/system/team?
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| Why not Jackson on 12:45 - Sep 17 with 831 views | PhilTWTD |
| Why not Jackson on 12:39 - Sep 17 by StokieBlue |
Well any system can of course work with the right players.
On that day it was down to the system and the players deployed though. As soon as we reverted to 442 with the changes we grabbed 2 goals and an unlikely win. When we were 433 the defence had little options to pass to and with the distribution of our defenders that's not ideal.
What would you like to see as the formation/system/team?
SB |
As per the previous thread, I've not thought 4-4-2 has worked particularly well all season in terms of really controlling games, aside from the Sunderland match really. But we have been scoring and winning games so I think it's been difficult to change it.
Thought it was little surprise that PL switched after the Posh game as I thought its failings were most notable in that match.
I was less convinced it was the system that was the problem against AFC Wimbledon, just seemed a general lack of belief and willingness to do anything risky in that game - aside from Dozzell's excellent pass through for Norwood - until Georgiou came on and livened things up with his direct running.
Not sure the change of system was what neceesarily changed the game but more the change of personnel with Jackson also making an impact. And also Wimbledon sitting back and allowing us to play virtually the whole half in their half of the field. | | | |
| Why not Jackson on 12:52 - Sep 17 with 819 views | StokieBlue |
| Why not Jackson on 12:45 - Sep 17 by PhilTWTD |
As per the previous thread, I've not thought 4-4-2 has worked particularly well all season in terms of really controlling games, aside from the Sunderland match really. But we have been scoring and winning games so I think it's been difficult to change it.
Thought it was little surprise that PL switched after the Posh game as I thought its failings were most notable in that match.
I was less convinced it was the system that was the problem against AFC Wimbledon, just seemed a general lack of belief and willingness to do anything risky in that game - aside from Dozzell's excellent pass through for Norwood - until Georgiou came on and livened things up with his direct running.
Not sure the change of system was what neceesarily changed the game but more the change of personnel with Jackson also making an impact. And also Wimbledon sitting back and allowing us to play virtually the whole half in their half of the field. |
That's all fair but without a change of system Jackson wouldn't have been able to come on upfront as a pairing with Norwood so I don't think the system change can be dismissed.
I do agree we aren't controlling games though. Perhaps a 4231 or 352 might work better in that regard - I'm just not sold on the 433 at the moment.
I'm happy to be proven wrong.
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