| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 08:28 - Oct 3 with 633 views | NewcyBlue |
| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 08:22 - Oct 3 by artsbossbeard |
The problem being is that if (when?) it does go wrong, it will be the fault of everyone else for not getting behind it wholly rather than the true patriots who only want what's good for our beloved nation.*
*I read this on social media |
There really should have been some sort of test before the referendum, perhaps a look at people’s social media to decide if they should be allowed to vote. |  |
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| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 09:15 - Oct 3 with 615 views | chicoazul |
| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 07:05 - Oct 3 by Dubtractor |
We're not getting that genie back in the bottle now. Unfortunately. |
Thank Mad Dave Cameron for that. He promised he would have a referendum as the idiot was confident he wouldnt have to implement it as he felt there was no chance he would win a majority in 2015. |  |
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| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 09:23 - Oct 3 with 600 views | Steve_M |
| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 09:15 - Oct 3 by chicoazul |
Thank Mad Dave Cameron for that. He promised he would have a referendum as the idiot was confident he wouldnt have to implement it as he felt there was no chance he would win a majority in 2015. |
Cameron and Osborne repeatedly chose the most politically expedient short-term course without any consideration of either a wider timespan or the longer-term consequences of their decisions.
Cameron didn't put any effort into the referendum because he thought it would be won comfortable, some kind of scenario planning for losing would have made the last three years less volatile and less in sway to the loudest of the Brexiter voters.
Tw at. [Post edited 3 Oct 2019 10:23]
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| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 09:26 - Oct 3 with 594 views | chicoazul |
| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 09:23 - Oct 3 by Steve_M |
Cameron and Osborne repeatedly chose the most politically expedient short-term course without any consideration of either a wider timespan or the longer-term consequences of their decisions.
Cameron didn't put any effort into the referendum because he thought it would be won comfortable, some kind of scenario planning for losing would have made the last three years less volatile and less in sway to the loudest of the Brexiter voters.
Tw at. [Post edited 3 Oct 2019 10:23]
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It's almost as if they were a pair of morons unfit for high office. | |
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| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 10:19 - Oct 3 with 573 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 09:23 - Oct 3 by Steve_M |
Cameron and Osborne repeatedly chose the most politically expedient short-term course without any consideration of either a wider timespan or the longer-term consequences of their decisions.
Cameron didn't put any effort into the referendum because he thought it would be won comfortable, some kind of scenario planning for losing would have made the last three years less volatile and less in sway to the loudest of the Brexiter voters.
Tw at. [Post edited 3 Oct 2019 10:23]
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Disagree on the first point, the referendum was inevitable eventually due to the strength of public feeling in some quarters and the rise of UKIP. The issue wasn’t going to go away
Agree fully on the second point, and will also point to those politicians that jumped on the Leave train for no reason other than to further their own careers (very successfully in one case) |  |
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| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 10:25 - Oct 3 with 566 views | chicoazul |
| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 10:19 - Oct 3 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Disagree on the first point, the referendum was inevitable eventually due to the strength of public feeling in some quarters and the rise of UKIP. The issue wasn’t going to go away
Agree fully on the second point, and will also point to those politicians that jumped on the Leave train for no reason other than to further their own careers (very successfully in one case) |
UKIP was a tiny minority party that couldnt win a single seat in the HoC and had just 45000 members at its' peak. Mad Dave was threatened by people in his own party simply because he hates direct confrontation (like all softcock Etonians & PPE grads) so thought he could do away with the issue by putting a referendum policy in place that he never intended to carry out. | |
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| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 10:49 - Oct 3 with 549 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 10:25 - Oct 3 by chicoazul |
UKIP was a tiny minority party that couldnt win a single seat in the HoC and had just 45000 members at its' peak. Mad Dave was threatened by people in his own party simply because he hates direct confrontation (like all softcock Etonians & PPE grads) so thought he could do away with the issue by putting a referendum policy in place that he never intended to carry out. |
They got 12.6% of the vote in 2015 - and that was with the Tories running on a referendum promise. They had been gaining hugely in profile - that an increasing number of people wanted this was obvious and it wasn’t going to go away
You’re absolutely right though that Cameron assumed a remain outcome was a given | |
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| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 11:18 - Oct 3 with 526 views | Steve_M |
| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 10:19 - Oct 3 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Disagree on the first point, the referendum was inevitable eventually due to the strength of public feeling in some quarters and the rise of UKIP. The issue wasn’t going to go away
Agree fully on the second point, and will also point to those politicians that jumped on the Leave train for no reason other than to further their own careers (very successfully in one case) |
The second point is very much an example of the first. I'm not sure that a referendum was inevitable but, if one assumes that it was, then it was still beholden on the Prime Minister to put some effort into it. | |
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| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 11:26 - Oct 3 with 517 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 11:18 - Oct 3 by Steve_M |
The second point is very much an example of the first. I'm not sure that a referendum was inevitable but, if one assumes that it was, then it was still beholden on the Prime Minister to put some effort into it. |
Yep absolutely - think Cameron still viewed it as a relative minority and thus the result would be a given | |
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| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 12:51 - Oct 3 with 481 views | itfcjoe |
| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 09:48 - Oct 2 by Darth_Koont |
Very good. The analysis and conclusion seem pretty much spot on.
"The two sides are not operating to the same time horizon. Both say they want a deal, but Johnson means a headline to get through the week; Brussels means a treaty to secure the integrity of the European project for a generation.
That misalignment of perspectives has plagued the Brexit process. Eurosceptics constantly underestimate EU states’ readiness to prize collective solidarity over relations with a splitter nation on its way out of the club. It never occurred to them, for example, that an Irish voice could carry further across the continent than an English one. They did not anticipate the difference between a European negotiation among member states (the kind where Britain often got its way) and a negotiation between the EU and an exiting country issuing unrealistic demands backed by improbable threats." |
This is a good piece too:
https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/10/02/johnson-s-brexit-plan-no-viability-n
If Brussels accepted the package, Ireland would be thrown under the bus. It would be a complete betrayal, something they have made clear they would never do.
That's not just a moral point. It is a strategic one. If they go against Ireland, no other member state would trust them again. The offer the EU makes to countries - that they become stronger by working together - would be shown to be false.
....
But this assessment is very weak, because the moral reality of that point is inverted. If the UK decides to leave without a deal, then the consequences are its responsibility. But if the EU signed up to this deal, then it shares that responsibility. And on the areas it cares about - checks on the border, north-south cooperation - those consequences would be equivalent to no-deal.
Such a move would also destroy the EU's credibility in negotiations around the world. It would be seen to buckle on all its key demands in the face of intransigence and threats. Why wouldn't other negotiating partners try the same trick? |  |
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| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 12:56 - Oct 3 with 481 views | itfcjoe |
| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 16:28 - Oct 2 by SpruceMoose |
Me either.
I have never, ever, seen a well evidenced, rational, factual explanation for the benefits of Brexit.
It's safe to conclude there isn't one. |
I think there obviously were ones, but there was never a big enough consensus behind one so they've had to pool everything together and there is clearly nothing that can be agreed on.
The tactics of Vote Leave, were purely about winning, what they won they didn't care it was just about proving how clever they are at the expense of the country.
There are plenty on the Remain side now who have worked in research teams as Eurosceptics and believe we would be better off out than in, but not like this.
If Leave meant a huge programme of upskilling, training and making the British people better coupled with a fair immigration system, then I'd be all for it - but it's a right wing coup | |
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| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 12:58 - Oct 3 with 476 views | itfcjoe |
| This is good on the dynamic of a Brexit deal on 10:25 - Oct 3 by chicoazul |
UKIP was a tiny minority party that couldnt win a single seat in the HoC and had just 45000 members at its' peak. Mad Dave was threatened by people in his own party simply because he hates direct confrontation (like all softcock Etonians & PPE grads) so thought he could do away with the issue by putting a referendum policy in place that he never intended to carry out. |
But those 45000 members and UKIPs vote share were taking people away from the Tories and losing them seats - that was always the issue | |
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