| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison 22:02 - Mar 4 with 8681 views | Doctor_Earman |
Many (inc. Lambert) constantly refer to the fact that many other 'big' clubs have also found themselves in League 1 at some point. This is true. Therefore I shall show where these clubs finished in their first League 1 seasons after their most recent relegation from the Championship:
Sheffield Wednesday - 15th
Leicester - 1st
Forest - 7th
Leeds - 5th (Lost in play-offs)*
Southampton - 7th**
Wolves - 1st
Sheffield United - 3rd (Lost in play-offs)
Sunderland - 5th (Lost in play-offs)
*15-point deduction
**10-point deduction
Assuming ITFC finish where they are now (9th), that would be the worst first season for a comparable 'big' club in League One since Sheffield Wednesday in 2010-11. Bear in mind however Wednesday had off-field issues and a takeover that season - ITFC have no such problems. This just illustrates further how badly the club is doing. Heck you could even throw in Blackburn and Norwich who finished 2nd and 1st respectively. It's an utter disgrace what's happening to this club. Hopefully the above really crystallises it in people's minds about just how much of a failure this season looks like it will become. |  | | |  |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 09:46 - Mar 5 with 2669 views | itfcjoe |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 09:43 - Mar 5 by WarkTheWarkITFC |
If we drop into League Two he won't have to put in £5m any more.
We will effectively end up breaking even due to the level of players we will have playing for us, so the interesting thing will be how these people then defend Evans.
'He's goes to all the games, well some of them, well I did see him in August against Barrow'. |
We won't drop into league 2, look at the clubs at the bottom of this league - they are absolute minnows and would kill for an owner chucking 7 figures in on a daily basis
Having more money makes it difficult to keep failing |  |
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| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 09:46 - Mar 5 with 2666 views | monytowbray |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 09:44 - Mar 5 by itfcjoe |
It doesn't necessarily need to be a DoF, but just a structure off the field to help the manager
Cole Skuse is probably on £200k a year, when he goes in the summer you could appoint 4-5 smart football guys who have had success in recruitment and sports science at other clubs for the same outlay |
*Recruits a retired Skuse as head of football* |  |
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| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 09:49 - Mar 5 with 2659 views | Oxford_Blue |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 09:45 - Mar 5 by monytowbray |
You pressure him, as fans, to force a sale to a suitable candidate.
I don't know how many people on this forum find this matter so complex. Evans is still here through ignorance or a refusal to give up out of choice. He's not lumped with us. |
Your presumption here all rests on a suitable candidate existing. There may have been offers before when the club was in the championship. I doubt there would be any now.
That is the entire issue. There isn’t one. Because the club loses millions and is a long long way off even being a mid table Championship club. Any purchaser is not going to be a businessman but a town fan who can afford to lose several million a year but not put in the levels now needed to compete for promotion. | | | |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 09:53 - Mar 5 with 2649 views | monytowbray |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 09:49 - Mar 5 by Oxford_Blue |
Your presumption here all rests on a suitable candidate existing. There may have been offers before when the club was in the championship. I doubt there would be any now.
That is the entire issue. There isn’t one. Because the club loses millions and is a long long way off even being a mid table Championship club. Any purchaser is not going to be a businessman but a town fan who can afford to lose several million a year but not put in the levels now needed to compete for promotion. |
Again, no one's going to randomly run to buy something not for sale that could potentially cost £80m outright. Evans needs to actually state it's for sale and the asking price. | |
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| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 09:54 - Mar 5 with 2650 views | Mossy |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 09:21 - Mar 5 by itfcjoe |
There seems a massive amount of revisionism, or lack of knowledge from town fans, who just look at the end result rather than how they got there with regards to Sheffield United.
I read lots about how we need to show ambition like Sheffield United, how they spent a load to get back up, how they have a great owner etc.
The reality is they were a big club in this league who couldn't get there, and a bit of a muddle off the pitch - they then appointed Chris Wilder and he has been utterly incredible in galvanising the whole club and totally turning it round.
Whilst I would like Evans to invest more, and invest more smartly off the pitch - the reality is a good manager covers up so many problems and finding one of those is the best thing he can do - Lambert isn't one.
For all Mick's faults, he got us within touching distance of the Premier League. That shows what a good manager can do, and is what we need to find |
Yup, totally agree with this 😊 |  |
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| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 09:54 - Mar 5 with 2649 views | itfcjoe |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 09:49 - Mar 5 by Oxford_Blue |
Your presumption here all rests on a suitable candidate existing. There may have been offers before when the club was in the championship. I doubt there would be any now.
That is the entire issue. There isn’t one. Because the club loses millions and is a long long way off even being a mid table Championship club. Any purchaser is not going to be a businessman but a town fan who can afford to lose several million a year but not put in the levels now needed to compete for promotion. |
It’s hugely unlikely there is someone out there who can and will back us financially as much as Evans does - but will they be a smarter operator? That is the unknown.
My preference is Evans just learns what he needs to be doing and empowers people - I think the amount of trust O’Neill seems to be getting, in comparison to previous incumbents is a positive - and bar on pitch things are moving in the right direction
The problem is Lambert has totally f*cked this season up on the pitch and Evans made the stupid decision with regards to his 5 year deal - but the devil will be in the detail on that with regards to break clauses | |
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| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 09:55 - Mar 5 with 2647 views | WarkTheWarkITFC |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 09:46 - Mar 5 by itfcjoe |
We won't drop into league 2, look at the clubs at the bottom of this league - they are absolute minnows and would kill for an owner chucking 7 figures in on a daily basis
Having more money makes it difficult to keep failing |
I don't believe we would.
Pompey and Luton did in far worse situations that we find ourselves in. It is hugely unlikely but - when you consider we are 20th of 23 teams on form over half a season with Downes and Woolfy, you can't really rule it out as completely impossible.
Far more likely we could go down next season if things continue that Sheffield United qualifying for Europe through their league position.
Very unlikely but not completely insane to think it could happen. | |
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| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 10:03 - Mar 5 with 2636 views | LankHenners |
I looked into this a few weeks ago and literally every single ‘big’ club Lambert has cited as evidence of league 1 being hard to get out of sacked their manager to get the job done. Sunderland still pending but are in a much better position than we are.
It’s just another one of the many excuses he’s been making all season and whilst all situations aren’t as straightforward as that, it certainly doesn’t make the point at all that he thinks it does. [Post edited 5 Mar 2020 10:07]
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| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 10:21 - Mar 5 with 2606 views | Oxford_Blue |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 09:53 - Mar 5 by monytowbray |
Again, no one's going to randomly run to buy something not for sale that could potentially cost £80m outright. Evans needs to actually state it's for sale and the asking price. |
This isn’t a house purchase.
This isn’t how company sales work. When Evans bought the club on 2007/08 it wasn’t for sale.
In the case of limited companies, interested parties make enquiries, normally through third parties with proof of funds and a business plan. In any event, it is in the public domain that Evans will listen to serious offers.
Fact is, the club loses millions and doesn’t make any profit. It’s not a viable business. So no one is going to buy it who wants to make money unless it can get to the premiership. That leaves a rich fan who is prepared to lose several million a year. We already have him.
The notion that there is a white knight in shining armour with £500m in cash ready to spend on the club is delusional I’m sorry to say. | | | |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 10:24 - Mar 5 with 2604 views | Oxford_Blue |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 09:54 - Mar 5 by itfcjoe |
It’s hugely unlikely there is someone out there who can and will back us financially as much as Evans does - but will they be a smarter operator? That is the unknown.
My preference is Evans just learns what he needs to be doing and empowers people - I think the amount of trust O’Neill seems to be getting, in comparison to previous incumbents is a positive - and bar on pitch things are moving in the right direction
The problem is Lambert has totally f*cked this season up on the pitch and Evans made the stupid decision with regards to his 5 year deal - but the devil will be in the detail on that with regards to break clauses |
It’s not really about the owner. Clubs above us have less money and lower crowds but are able to push for promotion because they have good managers who have developed teams to play at this level. | | | |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 10:52 - Mar 5 with 2579 views | PrideOfTheEast |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 10:21 - Mar 5 by Oxford_Blue |
This isn’t a house purchase.
This isn’t how company sales work. When Evans bought the club on 2007/08 it wasn’t for sale.
In the case of limited companies, interested parties make enquiries, normally through third parties with proof of funds and a business plan. In any event, it is in the public domain that Evans will listen to serious offers.
Fact is, the club loses millions and doesn’t make any profit. It’s not a viable business. So no one is going to buy it who wants to make money unless it can get to the premiership. That leaves a rich fan who is prepared to lose several million a year. We already have him.
The notion that there is a white knight in shining armour with £500m in cash ready to spend on the club is delusional I’m sorry to say. |
Indeed, in football, everything is always for sale. Callis - the marketing of it isn't an issue. The likelihood of somebody being out there willing to chuck in the money Evans does is.
We were actively looking for investment in 2007/2008. | | | |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 10:53 - Mar 5 with 2578 views | PrideOfTheEast |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 10:24 - Mar 5 by Oxford_Blue |
It’s not really about the owner. Clubs above us have less money and lower crowds but are able to push for promotion because they have good managers who have developed teams to play at this level. |
Exactly. | | | |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 11:16 - Mar 5 with 2552 views | Half_Idiot |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 07:35 - Mar 5 by Oxford_Blue |
I’d be interested to also know how long it took each of these clubs to get promoted? This is the true test - not whether a side got in the play offs and lost.
Didn’t it take Leeds and Sheff Utd quite a while?
Portsmouth too? |
It only took Leeds 3 years but Sheff U took 6 years to get out |  | | |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 12:12 - Mar 5 with 2513 views | Half_Idiot |
"Big clubs" relegated to L1 in the last 15 years stats
Forest - 3 years to get out, 7th in first season
Leeds - 3 years to get out, 5th in first season
Leicester - 1 year to get out, 1st in first season
Southampton - 2 years to get out, 7th in first season
Wednesday - 2 years to get out, 15th in first season
Sheff U - 6 years to get out, 3rd in first season
Portsmouth - 7 years without getting back to Champ, including 3 years in L2, 24th in first season (included these for our resident Pompey fan)
Wolves - 1 year to get out, 1st in first season
Blackburn - 1 year to get out, 2nd in first season
Sunderland - in their second season, 5th in first season
Not sure if I've missed anyone out but on average it takes 2-3 seasons to get out | | | |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 13:50 - Mar 5 with 2457 views | jayessess |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 12:12 - Mar 5 by Half_Idiot |
"Big clubs" relegated to L1 in the last 15 years stats
Forest - 3 years to get out, 7th in first season
Leeds - 3 years to get out, 5th in first season
Leicester - 1 year to get out, 1st in first season
Southampton - 2 years to get out, 7th in first season
Wednesday - 2 years to get out, 15th in first season
Sheff U - 6 years to get out, 3rd in first season
Portsmouth - 7 years without getting back to Champ, including 3 years in L2, 24th in first season (included these for our resident Pompey fan)
Wolves - 1 year to get out, 1st in first season
Blackburn - 1 year to get out, 2nd in first season
Sunderland - in their second season, 5th in first season
Not sure if I've missed anyone out but on average it takes 2-3 seasons to get out |
Re: managers
Some of these, it's worth looking at the circumstances for context about first seasons in League and how our club is being run. Southampton and Leeds both got points deductions over finance issues and would've got closer to achieving their goals otherwise - Leeds would've gone straight back up and Southampton would've made the play-offs.
Wednesday were subject to a winding-up order during season one of their brief sojourn in League One and were in total financial chaos. Portsmouth were in even greater turmoil and didn't get bought out until April of that season. They were playing whoever turned up at some points.
So the good news is we're more stably run than any of that lot.
The bad news is that none of the big clubs that were financially stable did as badly as us. All of them bar Forest were top 6 by the end of season 1. Forest started their season atrociously, were 13th in February, then sacked the manager who'd got them there and only just missed out on the play-offs after a brilliant run in. The rest all made the top 6 after sacking the manager who had got them relegated.
The only exception were Blackburn Rovers, who had appointed Tony Mowbray late February in their relegation season when stuck in 23rd place. They then improved markedly - taking 22 points from their last 15, winning 3 of their last 5. They went down on goal difference after looking dead and buried in February. In many respects it wasn't surprising that they went on to boss League One, as Mowbray had effectively already turned things around before relegation.
So... keep the useless manager who got you relegated and give them chance after chance probably isn't the lesson here. [Post edited 5 Mar 2020 14:00]
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| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 14:06 - Mar 5 with 2439 views | Doctor_Earman |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 13:50 - Mar 5 by jayessess |
Re: managers
Some of these, it's worth looking at the circumstances for context about first seasons in League and how our club is being run. Southampton and Leeds both got points deductions over finance issues and would've got closer to achieving their goals otherwise - Leeds would've gone straight back up and Southampton would've made the play-offs.
Wednesday were subject to a winding-up order during season one of their brief sojourn in League One and were in total financial chaos. Portsmouth were in even greater turmoil and didn't get bought out until April of that season. They were playing whoever turned up at some points.
So the good news is we're more stably run than any of that lot.
The bad news is that none of the big clubs that were financially stable did as badly as us. All of them bar Forest were top 6 by the end of season 1. Forest started their season atrociously, were 13th in February, then sacked the manager who'd got them there and only just missed out on the play-offs after a brilliant run in. The rest all made the top 6 after sacking the manager who had got them relegated.
The only exception were Blackburn Rovers, who had appointed Tony Mowbray late February in their relegation season when stuck in 23rd place. They then improved markedly - taking 22 points from their last 15, winning 3 of their last 5. They went down on goal difference after looking dead and buried in February. In many respects it wasn't surprising that they went on to boss League One, as Mowbray had effectively already turned things around before relegation.
So... keep the useless manager who got you relegated and give them chance after chance probably isn't the lesson here. [Post edited 5 Mar 2020 14:00]
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Spot on with points you've made there. Also worth pointing out the following:
-Forest's manger for their debut League One season was Megson (shiver!) until he got sacked in February.
- Southampton won the Football League Trophy (Leasing.com) on their first season in League One. I know no one really cares about that competition but at least the club won some silverware and fans got a day out at Wembley. | | | |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 14:12 - Mar 5 with 2435 views | Doctor_Earman |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 09:21 - Mar 5 by itfcjoe |
There seems a massive amount of revisionism, or lack of knowledge from town fans, who just look at the end result rather than how they got there with regards to Sheffield United.
I read lots about how we need to show ambition like Sheffield United, how they spent a load to get back up, how they have a great owner etc.
The reality is they were a big club in this league who couldn't get there, and a bit of a muddle off the pitch - they then appointed Chris Wilder and he has been utterly incredible in galvanising the whole club and totally turning it round.
Whilst I would like Evans to invest more, and invest more smartly off the pitch - the reality is a good manager covers up so many problems and finding one of those is the best thing he can do - Lambert isn't one.
For all Mick's faults, he got us within touching distance of the Premier League. That shows what a good manager can do, and is what we need to find |
Two things worth remembering about Sheffield United:
- They were only penalty kicks away from returning to the Championship at the first attempt.
- They have a wealthy Saudi prince bankrolling the club. | | | |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 14:25 - Mar 5 with 2413 views | Moisha |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 14:06 - Mar 5 by Doctor_Earman |
Spot on with points you've made there. Also worth pointing out the following:
-Forest's manger for their debut League One season was Megson (shiver!) until he got sacked in February.
- Southampton won the Football League Trophy (Leasing.com) on their first season in League One. I know no one really cares about that competition but at least the club won some silverware and fans got a day out at Wembley. |
I think the issue is the position we were in, top of the table with games in hand, to where we find ourselves now after such a poor run.
If we’d have just won another 5 of those 4 wins in 20 we’d still be top and in a good place for the run in.
We/Lambert has royally screwed this up. |  | | |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 14:43 - Mar 5 with 2387 views | The_Realist_09 |
I fear we are no longer said 'big' club, whilst we have the fan base and facilities, we of course always have the potential to return to that status, however football is now more than ever about money. Whilst teams have done well on very little, achieving our goals on almost 0 is ridiculous. We surely knew it would take longer than a season to rebuild after having effectively mid-table championship team decimated and replaced with players that have never played at that level, some not even league 1.
I am not totally defending Lambert, he has clearly lost the plot atm and would clearly benefit from having a tactician by his side, however he isn't entirely to blame for the plummet of this club. Whilst Evans is maintaining our status as a football club, that is all we will be whilst he is at the realm, he's never going to show the ambition to get us back to our heights. Two January transfer windows managers have taken us to the top of the table only to not be backed.
For now, we are going nowhere. Even if by some miracle, a manager managed to get us into the championship. What realistically are our chances of staying there? | | | |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 14:53 - Mar 5 with 2367 views | r2d2 |
Big club my @rse. We havent been a big club for years. |  | | |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 15:00 - Mar 5 with 2357 views | Doctor_Earman |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 14:43 - Mar 5 by The_Realist_09 |
I fear we are no longer said 'big' club, whilst we have the fan base and facilities, we of course always have the potential to return to that status, however football is now more than ever about money. Whilst teams have done well on very little, achieving our goals on almost 0 is ridiculous. We surely knew it would take longer than a season to rebuild after having effectively mid-table championship team decimated and replaced with players that have never played at that level, some not even league 1.
I am not totally defending Lambert, he has clearly lost the plot atm and would clearly benefit from having a tactician by his side, however he isn't entirely to blame for the plummet of this club. Whilst Evans is maintaining our status as a football club, that is all we will be whilst he is at the realm, he's never going to show the ambition to get us back to our heights. Two January transfer windows managers have taken us to the top of the table only to not be backed.
For now, we are going nowhere. Even if by some miracle, a manager managed to get us into the championship. What realistically are our chances of staying there? |
Exactly. As I've said before the best we can hope for under Evans going forward are the lower reaches of the Championship and being a yo-yo League One/Championship club like Rotherham and Barnsley. | | | |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 15:17 - Mar 5 with 2344 views | Terry_Nutkins |
Are we not much more of a Charlton? 13th last time relegated and 1st season.
Whatever way you look at it we should be making the playoffs. I don't really care about anyone else.I
If we're looking at others then lets buy a load of big lads and play like Rotherham. They are the experts at getting out of L1. | |
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| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 15:19 - Mar 5 with 2340 views | WarkTheWarkITFC |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 14:53 - Mar 5 by r2d2 |
Big club my @rse. We havent been a big club for years. |
Well we are a big club.
We are in League One and are probably the second biggest club after Sunderland. We have the 2nd or 3rd highest attendance, one of the top wage bills and has as many major honours as any club, Pompey or Sunderland aside.
The three of us are very big League One clubs.
Are we a big club in English football? Absolutely not. There are 30 or so clubs as big or bigger. But in this division, almost every club is smaller. | |
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| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 15:27 - Mar 5 with 2328 views | daisyisabaddog |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 09:44 - Mar 5 by itfcjoe |
It doesn't necessarily need to be a DoF, but just a structure off the field to help the manager
Cole Skuse is probably on £200k a year, when he goes in the summer you could appoint 4-5 smart football guys who have had success in recruitment and sports science at other clubs for the same outlay |
Try doubling that figure | | | |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 15:42 - Mar 5 with 2307 views | jayessess |
| 'Big clubs' first seasons in League 1: A Comparison on 15:19 - Mar 5 by WarkTheWarkITFC |
Well we are a big club.
We are in League One and are probably the second biggest club after Sunderland. We have the 2nd or 3rd highest attendance, one of the top wage bills and has as many major honours as any club, Pompey or Sunderland aside.
The three of us are very big League One clubs.
Are we a big club in English football? Absolutely not. There are 30 or so clubs as big or bigger. But in this division, almost every club is smaller. |
2nd biggest, we get a 1500 more a week than Pompey, nearly double what Bolton in 4th are getting, more than double everybody else in the division, triple what Wycombe get, six times what Fleetwood do. We'll be charging more per head than all of those as well.
Even if Evans' financial contribution was £0, we should still have enough resources to get out of this division. [Post edited 5 Mar 2020 15:44]
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