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But we will still clap for you! on 11:31 - May 17 by Darth_Koont
2017 was close despite those working against the leadership and rebelling during the first two years.
2019 was lost more because of Brexit although people doubling down on the attacks and smears clearly didn't help either.
And one can talk about Corbyn's strengths and undoubted weaknesses as a politician and leader, but he is only toxic to his more loony, often right-wing opponents in politics and the media. And those who unquestioningly swallowed the narrative while ignoring the factual evidence.
But we will still clap for you! on 11:31 - May 17 by Darth_Koont
2017 was close despite those working against the leadership and rebelling during the first two years.
2019 was lost more because of Brexit although people doubling down on the attacks and smears clearly didn't help either.
And one can talk about Corbyn's strengths and undoubted weaknesses as a politician and leader, but he is only toxic to his more loony, often right-wing opponents in politics and the media. And those who unquestioningly swallowed the narrative while ignoring the factual evidence.
Your middle paragraph talks about brexit as something that just happenned *to* jez, when in actualy fact he had full agency over labour's approach. Not making rhe forceful argument in favour of continued EU membership from the off was his failure.
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
But we will still clap for you! on 11:50 - May 17 by giant_stow
Your middle paragraph talks about brexit as something that just happenned *to* jez, when in actualy fact he had full agency over labour's approach. Not making rhe forceful argument in favour of continued EU membership from the off was his failure.
No, Brexit became an intractable mess to the country with the electorate still split and not even along left-right lines.
What do you think Labour's Brexit position should have been? And should be now? Choosing outright revoke and remain or going along with the Tories narrative are both fraught with problems. As we'll continue to see this year.
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But we will still clap for you! on 12:07 - May 17 with 539 views
But we will still clap for you! on 11:35 - May 17 by GlasgowBlue
The "culture of betrayal"? LOL
Considering how much he and his faction fought, cheated and lied to keep their cosy little club against the Labour party members' wishes, Johnson needs to wind his neck in.
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But we will still clap for you! on 12:22 - May 17 with 518 views
But we will still clap for you! on 12:02 - May 17 by Darth_Koont
No, Brexit became an intractable mess to the country with the electorate still split and not even along left-right lines.
What do you think Labour's Brexit position should have been? And should be now? Choosing outright revoke and remain or going along with the Tories narrative are both fraught with problems. As we'll continue to see this year.
Labour's brexit policy should have reflected it's member's wishes: a forceful remain policy. Id have thought the democeat in you would approve too no?
Now the battle is lost (well and truly) it would be poibtless to cintinue fighting.
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
But we will still clap for you! on 12:22 - May 17 by giant_stow
Labour's brexit policy should have reflected it's member's wishes: a forceful remain policy. Id have thought the democeat in you would approve too no?
Now the battle is lost (well and truly) it would be poibtless to cintinue fighting.
Well, on that score it did. It was certainly stepping back from a worst-case No deal which was the biggest concern. Which eventually could lead to remaining depending on what was possible with a more sensible deal.
There was/is no binary solution to Brexit unless you're the Tories who are having to own their gung-ho attitude and dig a deeper hole or you're the LibDems who had nothing to lose (or indeed gain it turns out).
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But we will still clap for you! on 13:06 - May 17 with 462 views
But we will still clap for you! on 12:30 - May 17 by Darth_Koont
Well, on that score it did. It was certainly stepping back from a worst-case No deal which was the biggest concern. Which eventually could lead to remaining depending on what was possible with a more sensible deal.
There was/is no binary solution to Brexit unless you're the Tories who are having to own their gung-ho attitude and dig a deeper hole or you're the LibDems who had nothing to lose (or indeed gain it turns out).
Labpur sat on the fence with brexit. Neither major party argued unambiguously in favour of remain, denying the 48% true parliamentary representation. A disgraceful failure.
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
But we will still clap for you! on 13:06 - May 17 by giant_stow
Labpur sat on the fence with brexit. Neither major party argued unambiguously in favour of remain, denying the 48% true parliamentary representation. A disgraceful failure.
If you think it was a disgraceful failure, then Starmer doubled down on it even two months after the election.
It was pretty much his proposal too. And I bet my bottom dollar that if he'd been leader at the time then it would have been called a "grown-up, thoughtful and democratic response" by you and others.
Anyone who couldn't see the inherent sense of the policy at the time as a way out of the Brexit mess (that had more people wanting No Deal than Remain at the end, such was the madness) or argued that it was confusing shouldn't be in charge of a motor vehicle or a pair of scissors. I mean seriously, that's after we already had 4 years of talking about Brexit and seeing a total impasse based on binary positions.
It was pretty much his proposal too. And I bet my bottom dollar that if he'd been leader at the time then it would have been called a "grown-up, thoughtful and democratic response" by you and others.
Anyone who couldn't see the inherent sense of the policy at the time as a way out of the Brexit mess (that had more people wanting No Deal than Remain at the end, such was the madness) or argued that it was confusing shouldn't be in charge of a motor vehicle or a pair of scissors. I mean seriously, that's after we already had 4 years of talking about Brexit and seeing a total impasse based on binary positions.
It's bordering on delusional.
The policy was fine.
In the article
“He said he would have gone further and pushed the leadership to come out and tell members which side they would have campaigned for.”
That’s the issue. And it wasn’t so big an issue that I didn’t vote labour.
But we will still clap for you! on 14:20 - May 17 by NewcyBlue
The policy was fine.
In the article
“He said he would have gone further and pushed the leadership to come out and tell members which side they would have campaigned for.”
That’s the issue. And it wasn’t so big an issue that I didn’t vote labour.
I agree that leadership was the problem but only because people in the media and on social media were so ready to make it about Corbyn and not defend (let alone discuss) the policy on its own terms.
How can the policy that would lead to a public vote be so casually be referred to as a "disgraceful failure"? Answer that properly and you'll be more than halfway to seeing what's been going on.
If Starmer has the effect that we can actually discuss policies without people pulling down the mental shutters (and the media are happier to provide the coverage and balance needed) than that will be a huge boost to politics in this country.
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But we will still clap for you! on 15:20 - May 17 with 386 views
But we will still clap for you! on 14:36 - May 17 by Darth_Koont
I agree that leadership was the problem but only because people in the media and on social media were so ready to make it about Corbyn and not defend (let alone discuss) the policy on its own terms.
How can the policy that would lead to a public vote be so casually be referred to as a "disgraceful failure"? Answer that properly and you'll be more than halfway to seeing what's been going on.
If Starmer has the effect that we can actually discuss policies without people pulling down the mental shutters (and the media are happier to provide the coverage and balance needed) than that will be a huge boost to politics in this country.
Well it self evidently was a failure, you’ve said yourself that Brexit was the deciding factor in an election that Labour collapsed in.
Whether you like it or not (I certainly do not), Brexit ultimately IS a binary issue. Labour just wanted to postpone telling everyone which way they would go until after the election. How is that going to convince people to vote for them??
It was a difficult, perhaps impossible, situation but Corbyn still made a tremendous hash of it.
I voted for him, and have no doubt he would have been much better for the country than the current shower, but I think you have a real blond spot where JC and his party are concerned. I know they very closely matched your values (and mine really) but they were a weak, ineffective opposition throughout a period when we desperately needed a strong and competent Labour Party. The country continues to pay the price.
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But we will still clap for you! on 15:38 - May 17 with 376 views
But we will still clap for you! on 15:20 - May 17 by m14_blue
Well it self evidently was a failure, you’ve said yourself that Brexit was the deciding factor in an election that Labour collapsed in.
Whether you like it or not (I certainly do not), Brexit ultimately IS a binary issue. Labour just wanted to postpone telling everyone which way they would go until after the election. How is that going to convince people to vote for them??
It was a difficult, perhaps impossible, situation but Corbyn still made a tremendous hash of it.
I voted for him, and have no doubt he would have been much better for the country than the current shower, but I think you have a real blond spot where JC and his party are concerned. I know they very closely matched your values (and mine really) but they were a weak, ineffective opposition throughout a period when we desperately needed a strong and competent Labour Party. The country continues to pay the price.
"A real blond spot" - I'm a proud brunette. I might to have to use that though.
Brexit was certainly what dominated in an election that's about even bigger issues than that. That was the disaster because it detracted from what should have been discussed in the wider sense. That the Brexit "debate" has become an identity issue over the years made it even more unhelpful from a democratic perspective.
You seem to be saying that the way out of the Brexit impasse was just to pick a side and stick with it. That would have made the election even more about Brexit which was where the Tories wanted it to be. So not sure how that would have worked. Personally I don't think Remain would have worked electorally and committing to Brexit would have shown a distinct lack of principles and the responsibility to look after the UK as a whole.
However weak Labour was under Corbyn, they were unfairly maligned and the message distorted. That's even before we address the sabotage from too many Labour MPs and those behind the scenes which the media gleefully endorsed. So I think it's all a bit academic - we've got caught up in the game that isn't about representation, policies or objective facts. That's what we're paying the price for - both in the rise of the populist right and the dismissal of those who opposed it most.
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But we will still clap for you! on 15:42 - May 17 with 370 views
But we will still clap for you! on 15:38 - May 17 by Darth_Koont
"A real blond spot" - I'm a proud brunette. I might to have to use that though.
Brexit was certainly what dominated in an election that's about even bigger issues than that. That was the disaster because it detracted from what should have been discussed in the wider sense. That the Brexit "debate" has become an identity issue over the years made it even more unhelpful from a democratic perspective.
You seem to be saying that the way out of the Brexit impasse was just to pick a side and stick with it. That would have made the election even more about Brexit which was where the Tories wanted it to be. So not sure how that would have worked. Personally I don't think Remain would have worked electorally and committing to Brexit would have shown a distinct lack of principles and the responsibility to look after the UK as a whole.
However weak Labour was under Corbyn, they were unfairly maligned and the message distorted. That's even before we address the sabotage from too many Labour MPs and those behind the scenes which the media gleefully endorsed. So I think it's all a bit academic - we've got caught up in the game that isn't about representation, policies or objective facts. That's what we're paying the price for - both in the rise of the populist right and the dismissal of those who opposed it most.
I love a blonde, always have.
We’re not going to agree but we’re pretty much on the same side anyway so I’ll leave it there.
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But we will still clap for you! on 15:45 - May 17 with 367 views
But we will still clap for you! on 11:34 - May 17 by bournemouthblue
It was an election like no other with Brexit on the agenda
Corbyn was only one part of the problem, what never seems to be talked about is the fact Blairism turned Scotland against Labour.
Labour will only ever achieve a majority outright if they win back Scotland
It's fair to say that Neo-Liberalism has turned the North against Labour also and Brexit was a protest vote against that whole system. Whether the Tories maintain those seats in the Red Wall, remains to be seen.
I think Scotland is lost forever to Labour, or at least until it becomes an independent country and voters want a left-leaning alternative to the SNP and don't have to worry about the independence angle. In the meantime, the SNP have shown they are better at opposing the Tories, and it appears that most left-leaning people in Scotland support independence (which Scottish Labour are against).
One thing that may really determine their future is what happens at the next Scottish Parliament election if the SNP are the largest party but don't have a majority and Labour hold the balance of power between them and the Tories. If they opted to allow the latter to form a government on the basis of being fellow unionists, it really would be suicide. Sadly I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they did that.
Separately, who in Labour actually decided it was a good idea to have a general election in 2019? The Tories were completely on the ropes in Parliament. They could have kept them there for a couple more years. It was pretty clear (to me at least) that if there was an election, it would be won by the Tories. Agreeing to dissolve parliament must be one of the biggest mistakes of its kind made in UK politics.
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But we will still clap for you! on 15:49 - May 17 with 361 views
But we will still clap for you! on 15:42 - May 17 by m14_blue
I love a blonde, always have.
We’re not going to agree but we’re pretty much on the same side anyway so I’ll leave it there.
Fair enough. And yes - we're probably talking perceptions and tactics more than anything else.
And I've said it before, Starmer's "boring" and Establishment persona is probably his greatest strength. Not just that the right-wing press will have to jump the shark to attack him (cf Donkeymillions) but the centre won't join in and will defend him. That's huge.
All he needs to do is keep his word about being committed to progressive policies and he'll be a great leader to have and a definite step up on Corbyn.
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But we will still clap for you! on 16:08 - May 17 with 335 views
But we will still clap for you! on 15:45 - May 17 by Clapham_Junction
I think Scotland is lost forever to Labour, or at least until it becomes an independent country and voters want a left-leaning alternative to the SNP and don't have to worry about the independence angle. In the meantime, the SNP have shown they are better at opposing the Tories, and it appears that most left-leaning people in Scotland support independence (which Scottish Labour are against).
One thing that may really determine their future is what happens at the next Scottish Parliament election if the SNP are the largest party but don't have a majority and Labour hold the balance of power between them and the Tories. If they opted to allow the latter to form a government on the basis of being fellow unionists, it really would be suicide. Sadly I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they did that.
Separately, who in Labour actually decided it was a good idea to have a general election in 2019? The Tories were completely on the ropes in Parliament. They could have kept them there for a couple more years. It was pretty clear (to me at least) that if there was an election, it would be won by the Tories. Agreeing to dissolve parliament must be one of the biggest mistakes of its kind made in UK politics.
Agree re: Scotland. The traditional parties can largely forget it unless they make some pretty major changes that won't go down well south of the border. So still a net loss.
Yes, in retrospect the decision to have an election was very strange. If Corbyn and the leadership team thought that they would repeat the 2017 charge made during Purdah and the media's enforced balanced coverage then that was the triumph of hope over expectation. They must have entirely misjudged how entrenched the Brexit positions and perceptions of Corbyn had become even from 2017.
I sort of want to blame Swinson and the People's Vote lot for pushing to go all-in but that shouldn't have forced the issue.
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But we will still clap for you! on 16:16 - May 17 with 324 views
But we will still clap for you! on 16:08 - May 17 by Darth_Koont
Agree re: Scotland. The traditional parties can largely forget it unless they make some pretty major changes that won't go down well south of the border. So still a net loss.
Yes, in retrospect the decision to have an election was very strange. If Corbyn and the leadership team thought that they would repeat the 2017 charge made during Purdah and the media's enforced balanced coverage then that was the triumph of hope over expectation. They must have entirely misjudged how entrenched the Brexit positions and perceptions of Corbyn had become even from 2017.
I sort of want to blame Swinson and the People's Vote lot for pushing to go all-in but that shouldn't have forced the issue.
I can't remember the PV lot pushing for a GE once the Tories wanted one, they should have been left to squirm
But we will still clap for you! on 16:16 - May 17 by itfcjoe
I can't remember the PV lot pushing for a GE once the Tories wanted one, they should have been left to squirm
Labour also didn't want one then. But as we got closer to leaving everything got ramped up on the Remain side.
What it really reveals is that even in disarray, defending a damaging 10 years in government, and promoting a pretty insane trade and social policy like a No Deal Brexit, the Tories are always in a strong position. Defies all reason but then that's what they get from the way our politics and media operate.
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