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Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 21:11 - Jun 26 by WeWereZombies
I think to make this point effectively you would need to have experienced some treatment from the Gendarmes, and from Shurtat IsrÄʼīl, and from the NAJA in Iran, and from the Mabahith in Saudi Arabia. Even in listing these I have made assumptions about severity of treatment but hopefully you get my point. There is a whole spread of detail that is not being covered in this thread, and lack of evidence being covered up by reliance on a few tentative links will not suffice to make up for that. Even Steve_M got things wrong in his post.
Sure. All I'm saying is that there's an established link between Israeli policing which is "special" and training of US Law Enforcement.
Only a fool thinks that makes "the Jews" responsible for George Floyd because "the Jews" apparently want a race war. But that's the crazy, politicized world we're in.
Caveat emptor.
Edit: By the way, I think this is a good detailed link that gives a reasonable overall view and clearly establishes that the kneeling link isn't proven.
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 21:44 - Jun 26 by manchego
The trope of Israel being puppet masters behind the worlds ills is commonplace. It was a stupid thing to conflate with George Floyd. Utterly pointless and impossible to prove. And the sort of thing the Labour Party needs to be a million miles away from. I'm certain Starmer was right to do what he did.
I think it's others who have attached the idea of puppet masters. There seem to be an enormous amount of tropes that have been added to this incident and can't in any reasonable sense be seen as part of the original statement.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 22:29 - Jun 26 with 3468 views
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 11:37 - Jun 26 by Seablu
It’s a tricky thing this ‘evidence’ malarkey. I just don’t know what constitutes a truly verifiable source anymore. I’m plainly way out of my depth here and feeling rather sorry for myself now.
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 21:52 - Jun 26 by Darth_Koont
Sure. All I'm saying is that there's an established link between Israeli policing which is "special" and training of US Law Enforcement.
Only a fool thinks that makes "the Jews" responsible for George Floyd because "the Jews" apparently want a race war. But that's the crazy, politicized world we're in.
Caveat emptor.
Edit: By the way, I think this is a good detailed link that gives a reasonable overall view and clearly establishes that the kneeling link isn't proven.
C'mon Darth, this is echo chamber stuff. Clapham_Junction posted that link yesterday evening and Dan_The_Man challenged it this morning, not to mention the photograph I have directed everyone towards that shows a discussion involving the United States Attorney General showing a black woman's neck being knelt upon by a policeman in 1963...
As Glassers had linked just below your post and just above this one, the fact checking of the Middle East Eye story is throwing up severe doubts, the Morning Star story makes no connection between the neck kneeling 'restraint' and a convention attended in 2012 (around fifty years after the photograph I mention). Amnesty are distancing themselves from both publications as far as I can see.
Although I would say, in closing, that it would be nice if once in a while - actually if it could be done pretty frequently, Glassers (and lowhouse for that matter) acknowledged the troubled lot of many ordinary Palestinians and what opinion he has on hopes for a two state solution.
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 23:10 - Jun 26 by WeWereZombies
C'mon Darth, this is echo chamber stuff. Clapham_Junction posted that link yesterday evening and Dan_The_Man challenged it this morning, not to mention the photograph I have directed everyone towards that shows a discussion involving the United States Attorney General showing a black woman's neck being knelt upon by a policeman in 1963...
As Glassers had linked just below your post and just above this one, the fact checking of the Middle East Eye story is throwing up severe doubts, the Morning Star story makes no connection between the neck kneeling 'restraint' and a convention attended in 2012 (around fifty years after the photograph I mention). Amnesty are distancing themselves from both publications as far as I can see.
Although I would say, in closing, that it would be nice if once in a while - actually if it could be done pretty frequently, Glassers (and lowhouse for that matter) acknowledged the troubled lot of many ordinary Palestinians and what opinion he has on hopes for a two state solution.
Of course there will one day be a two state solution.
Once Palestine has been shrunk to the size of a pea, there will be 'concessions' offered.
And if they disagree or try to protest or, god forbid, try to fight back to regain some land, they will be branded terrorists again.
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 21:44 - Jun 26 by manchego
The trope of Israel being puppet masters behind the worlds ills is commonplace. It was a stupid thing to conflate with George Floyd. Utterly pointless and impossible to prove. And the sort of thing the Labour Party needs to be a million miles away from. I'm certain Starmer was right to do what he did.
I am sure that the Israeli security forces are thoroughly lovely people beyond all reproach. Furthermore what trope gag do we apply when making unsubstantiated claims about the security forces of other countries? Or is Israel just a special case with a higher standard of proof required when it comes to its organs of state. I always thought antisemitism was about Jewishness but there you go.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 23:56 - Jun 26 by BanksterDebtSlave
I am sure that the Israeli security forces are thoroughly lovely people beyond all reproach. Furthermore what trope gag do we apply when making unsubstantiated claims about the security forces of other countries? Or is Israel just a special case with a higher standard of proof required when it comes to its organs of state. I always thought antisemitism was about Jewishness but there you go.
Of course it is.
And none of this has any reflection on Jewish people living in Israel or anywhere else in the world, many of whom are equally concerned with the heavy-handed approach encouraged by the Israeli government and employed by their forces on the street.
No decent person wants it.
Maybe the US police originally taught the Israeli forces how to misbehave when faced with an unarmed Palestinian to teach them a lesson. Maybe it's just a series of techniques that have evolved by disgusting regimes around the world simultaneously.
There's certainly some hideous amounts of racism directed towards the Palestinians each and every day and we know the US are complicit in this.
No doubt many of the board are also concerned about this.
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 21:54 - Jun 26 by Darth_Koont
I think it's others who have attached the idea of puppet masters. There seem to be an enormous amount of tropes that have been added to this incident and can't in any reasonable sense be seen as part of the original statement.
‘The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.’
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 23:56 - Jun 26 by BanksterDebtSlave
I am sure that the Israeli security forces are thoroughly lovely people beyond all reproach. Furthermore what trope gag do we apply when making unsubstantiated claims about the security forces of other countries? Or is Israel just a special case with a higher standard of proof required when it comes to its organs of state. I always thought antisemitism was about Jewishness but there you go.
"the Israeli security forces are thoroughly lovely people beyond all reproach"
Yeah, I said that didn't I.
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Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 08:59 - Jun 27 with 3298 views
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 02:17 - Jun 27 by manchego
"the Israeli security forces are thoroughly lovely people beyond all reproach"
Yeah, I said that didn't I.
No you didn't ,I did... but you have not addressed the trope gag point I see nor the point about what the antisemitism is specific to this case in terms of 'Jewishness.'
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 23:10 - Jun 26 by WeWereZombies
C'mon Darth, this is echo chamber stuff. Clapham_Junction posted that link yesterday evening and Dan_The_Man challenged it this morning, not to mention the photograph I have directed everyone towards that shows a discussion involving the United States Attorney General showing a black woman's neck being knelt upon by a policeman in 1963...
As Glassers had linked just below your post and just above this one, the fact checking of the Middle East Eye story is throwing up severe doubts, the Morning Star story makes no connection between the neck kneeling 'restraint' and a convention attended in 2012 (around fifty years after the photograph I mention). Amnesty are distancing themselves from both publications as far as I can see.
Although I would say, in closing, that it would be nice if once in a while - actually if it could be done pretty frequently, Glassers (and lowhouse for that matter) acknowledged the troubled lot of many ordinary Palestinians and what opinion he has on hopes for a two state solution.
You mean like this?
“ The actions against the Palestinian people by the Isaraeli government are disproportionate. The settlements on the West Bank are not only illegal they are provocative and should cease imidistely. . Netanyahu and his policies are a roadblock to any peaceful conclusion to the situation.”
Or this?
“Legitimate criticism of Israel is perfectly acceptable. No one on here has said anything to the contrary. And with Bibi in power legitimate criticism is very important. The man is a monster and is a roadblock to any peaceful solution. You can say that Israel is acting in an appalling manner with regards to the blockade of Gaza. You can say that the latest legislation that makes Arabs living ion Israel into second class citizens is racist legislation. The illegal Israeli settlements are a disgrace and should be bulldozed and the occupants forcibly removed. There I’ve just said it. It’s not anti-Semitic. “
That’s just two examples. I can find you loads more as It’s something I pretty much have to do on every thread regarding antisemitism. Which is piss poor when you think about it.
If a man of Islamic descent, with a Wife who came from a a Muslim family, was a vocal critic of Islamophobia on here would he be asked to give his views on ISIS or Saudi Arabia in order to justify his complaints? When Newcy speaks about the anti black racism his wife has received, is he asked to acknowledge some of the atrocities carried out by black governments around the world?
I’ve made clear my family background yet I have had posters come out with comments like “well you never mentioned having a Jewish wife before all this antisemitism blew up in the Labour Party”. As if it was something I should have declared right from the start. I have no idea of the ethnicity of anybody else’s partner in here. I don’t challenge anyone who speaks out against racism to give an opinion on any negative action from people of colour.
Edit. I’ve come back to this because the more I think about it the more pissed off I have become.
Re read your statement “ Although I would say, in closing, that it would be nice if once in a while - actually if it could be done pretty frequently, Glassers (and lowhouse for that matter) acknowledged the troubled lot of many ordinary Palestinians and what opinion he has on hopes for a two state solution.”
“actually if it could be done pretty frequently” .
Why should I have to declare my position on the Israel/Palestine conflict each time I speak about racist abuse aimed at British born Jews?The majority of posts I have made about antisemitism has rarely involved how it manifests in criticism of Israel. It’s mostly been about the abuse received by British Jews. Why the fcuk should I add a caveat regarding my views in a two state solution when discussing racist abuse received by British Jews.
Your statement fully sums up why antisemitism is treated differently than other forms of racism. You’re not the first to go down this particular road and you won’t be the last.
However, you’re an intelligent and decent person. I’d like to think you’ll revisit your statement and acknowledge how problematic it is.
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 09:06 - Jun 27 by GlasgowBlue
You mean like this?
“ The actions against the Palestinian people by the Isaraeli government are disproportionate. The settlements on the West Bank are not only illegal they are provocative and should cease imidistely. . Netanyahu and his policies are a roadblock to any peaceful conclusion to the situation.”
Or this?
“Legitimate criticism of Israel is perfectly acceptable. No one on here has said anything to the contrary. And with Bibi in power legitimate criticism is very important. The man is a monster and is a roadblock to any peaceful solution. You can say that Israel is acting in an appalling manner with regards to the blockade of Gaza. You can say that the latest legislation that makes Arabs living ion Israel into second class citizens is racist legislation. The illegal Israeli settlements are a disgrace and should be bulldozed and the occupants forcibly removed. There I’ve just said it. It’s not anti-Semitic. “
That’s just two examples. I can find you loads more as It’s something I pretty much have to do on every thread regarding antisemitism. Which is piss poor when you think about it.
If a man of Islamic descent, with a Wife who came from a a Muslim family, was a vocal critic of Islamophobia on here would he be asked to give his views on ISIS or Saudi Arabia in order to justify his complaints? When Newcy speaks about the anti black racism his wife has received, is he asked to acknowledge some of the atrocities carried out by black governments around the world?
I’ve made clear my family background yet I have had posters come out with comments like “well you never mentioned having a Jewish wife before all this antisemitism blew up in the Labour Party”. As if it was something I should have declared right from the start. I have no idea of the ethnicity of anybody else’s partner in here. I don’t challenge anyone who speaks out against racism to give an opinion on any negative action from people of colour.
Edit. I’ve come back to this because the more I think about it the more pissed off I have become.
Re read your statement “ Although I would say, in closing, that it would be nice if once in a while - actually if it could be done pretty frequently, Glassers (and lowhouse for that matter) acknowledged the troubled lot of many ordinary Palestinians and what opinion he has on hopes for a two state solution.”
“actually if it could be done pretty frequently” .
Why should I have to declare my position on the Israel/Palestine conflict each time I speak about racist abuse aimed at British born Jews?The majority of posts I have made about antisemitism has rarely involved how it manifests in criticism of Israel. It’s mostly been about the abuse received by British Jews. Why the fcuk should I add a caveat regarding my views in a two state solution when discussing racist abuse received by British Jews.
Your statement fully sums up why antisemitism is treated differently than other forms of racism. You’re not the first to go down this particular road and you won’t be the last.
However, you’re an intelligent and decent person. I’d like to think you’ll revisit your statement and acknowledge how problematic it is.
[Post edited 27 Jun 2020 14:46]
Nice thoughts and words GB but sadly they will fall on deaf ears as a group on here just don’t get it and AS to them doesn’t really exist and it doesn’t fit there narrative. Thank goodness the new Labour does and has dealt swiftly with the AS that exists within his movement but he’s got along way to go and so have you I am afraid. AS is the wrong type of racism for some on here and as I have said in numerous occasion they are no different to the WLM numb skulls and just as bigoted.
-3
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 10:05 - Jun 27 with 3232 views
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 09:48 - Jun 27 by jimmyvet
Nice thoughts and words GB but sadly they will fall on deaf ears as a group on here just don’t get it and AS to them doesn’t really exist and it doesn’t fit there narrative. Thank goodness the new Labour does and has dealt swiftly with the AS that exists within his movement but he’s got along way to go and so have you I am afraid. AS is the wrong type of racism for some on here and as I have said in numerous occasion they are no different to the WLM numb skulls and just as bigoted.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 09:48 - Jun 27 by jimmyvet
Nice thoughts and words GB but sadly they will fall on deaf ears as a group on here just don’t get it and AS to them doesn’t really exist and it doesn’t fit there narrative. Thank goodness the new Labour does and has dealt swiftly with the AS that exists within his movement but he’s got along way to go and so have you I am afraid. AS is the wrong type of racism for some on here and as I have said in numerous occasion they are no different to the WLM numb skulls and just as bigoted.
I think Zombies is intelligent and decent enough to take onboard the points I have raised.
But I’ve had this for years. The first interaction I had with F****s on the subject of racist abuse received by British Jews was when he asked me to state my views of the Israel/Palestinian conflict.
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 09:06 - Jun 27 by GlasgowBlue
You mean like this?
“ The actions against the Palestinian people by the Isaraeli government are disproportionate. The settlements on the West Bank are not only illegal they are provocative and should cease imidistely. . Netanyahu and his policies are a roadblock to any peaceful conclusion to the situation.”
Or this?
“Legitimate criticism of Israel is perfectly acceptable. No one on here has said anything to the contrary. And with Bibi in power legitimate criticism is very important. The man is a monster and is a roadblock to any peaceful solution. You can say that Israel is acting in an appalling manner with regards to the blockade of Gaza. You can say that the latest legislation that makes Arabs living ion Israel into second class citizens is racist legislation. The illegal Israeli settlements are a disgrace and should be bulldozed and the occupants forcibly removed. There I’ve just said it. It’s not anti-Semitic. “
That’s just two examples. I can find you loads more as It’s something I pretty much have to do on every thread regarding antisemitism. Which is piss poor when you think about it.
If a man of Islamic descent, with a Wife who came from a a Muslim family, was a vocal critic of Islamophobia on here would he be asked to give his views on ISIS or Saudi Arabia in order to justify his complaints? When Newcy speaks about the anti black racism his wife has received, is he asked to acknowledge some of the atrocities carried out by black governments around the world?
I’ve made clear my family background yet I have had posters come out with comments like “well you never mentioned having a Jewish wife before all this antisemitism blew up in the Labour Party”. As if it was something I should have declared right from the start. I have no idea of the ethnicity of anybody else’s partner in here. I don’t challenge anyone who speaks out against racism to give an opinion on any negative action from people of colour.
Edit. I’ve come back to this because the more I think about it the more pissed off I have become.
Re read your statement “ Although I would say, in closing, that it would be nice if once in a while - actually if it could be done pretty frequently, Glassers (and lowhouse for that matter) acknowledged the troubled lot of many ordinary Palestinians and what opinion he has on hopes for a two state solution.”
“actually if it could be done pretty frequently” .
Why should I have to declare my position on the Israel/Palestine conflict each time I speak about racist abuse aimed at British born Jews?The majority of posts I have made about antisemitism has rarely involved how it manifests in criticism of Israel. It’s mostly been about the abuse received by British Jews. Why the fcuk should I add a caveat regarding my views in a two state solution when discussing racist abuse received by British Jews.
Your statement fully sums up why antisemitism is treated differently than other forms of racism. You’re not the first to go down this particular road and you won’t be the last.
However, you’re an intelligent and decent person. I’d like to think you’ll revisit your statement and acknowledge how problematic it is.
[Post edited 27 Jun 2020 14:46]
I can't speak for Zombers but I don't really trust you or believe you. It was fair comment and this is you now being disingenuous again.
Case in point, you've frequently accused me of being obsessed with Israel for bringing it up despite it being the crux of the matter.
Stop being such an unbelievably bad faith operator when it comes to the left.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 11:25 - Jun 27 with 3163 views
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 23:10 - Jun 26 by WeWereZombies
C'mon Darth, this is echo chamber stuff. Clapham_Junction posted that link yesterday evening and Dan_The_Man challenged it this morning, not to mention the photograph I have directed everyone towards that shows a discussion involving the United States Attorney General showing a black woman's neck being knelt upon by a policeman in 1963...
As Glassers had linked just below your post and just above this one, the fact checking of the Middle East Eye story is throwing up severe doubts, the Morning Star story makes no connection between the neck kneeling 'restraint' and a convention attended in 2012 (around fifty years after the photograph I mention). Amnesty are distancing themselves from both publications as far as I can see.
Although I would say, in closing, that it would be nice if once in a while - actually if it could be done pretty frequently, Glassers (and lowhouse for that matter) acknowledged the troubled lot of many ordinary Palestinians and what opinion he has on hopes for a two state solution.
I think we probably agree. I've never accepted that direct link to George Floyd from the start and also take on board what you've shown about it being a technique from 1963.
I'm looking at an amended article where the link isn't proven and is more focused on the dodgy overall context of a systemically racist Israeli law enforcement training a systemically racist US law enforcement.
Pronouns: He/Him
1
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 11:28 - Jun 27 with 3151 views
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 11:11 - Jun 27 by Darth_Koont
I can't speak for Zombers but I don't really trust you or believe you. It was fair comment and this is you now being disingenuous again.
Case in point, you've frequently accused me of being obsessed with Israel for bringing it up despite it being the crux of the matter.
Stop being such an unbelievably bad faith operator when it comes to the left.
Should people complaining about Islamophobia in the Conservative Party, especially those with Muslim family members, be required to frequently state their position regarding Islamic terrorism before having their complaints taken at face value?
A simple yes or no answer please.
Oh and you are obsessed by Israel. You agreed with and supported a suspended a labour member who accused British Rabbis who complainEd about antisemitism as taking their instructions from Israel.
You have constantly bring Israel into every discussion on antisemitism experienced by British Jews. It’s a form of Israel Tourette’s.
Seems like a sensible & thorough article. My suspicion that this restraint technique comes directly from Israeli secret services training in 2012 now appears to be unfounded.
1
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 11:42 - Jun 27 with 3135 views
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 11:28 - Jun 27 by GlasgowBlue
Should people complaining about Islamophobia in the Conservative Party, especially those with Muslim family members, be required to frequently state their position regarding Islamic terrorism before having their complaints taken at face value?
A simple yes or no answer please.
Oh and you are obsessed by Israel. You agreed with and supported a suspended a labour member who accused British Rabbis who complainEd about antisemitism as taking their instructions from Israel.
You have constantly bring Israel into every discussion on antisemitism experienced by British Jews. It’s a form of Israel Tourette’s.
[Post edited 27 Jun 2020 11:34]
Obviously that depends on whether that person is generally trustworthy and doesn't seem to have a massive agenda at every turn.
So normally absolutely not. But you're not normal.
With your edit and accusation you show exactly why you're considered a bad faith operator. You know I was talking specifically about the JLM who organised the rabbis' letter. So for the gazillionth time, please stop editorialising my views to make your attacks.
Pronouns: He/Him
1
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 11:52 - Jun 27 with 3111 views
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 11:42 - Jun 27 by Darth_Koont
Obviously that depends on whether that person is generally trustworthy and doesn't seem to have a massive agenda at every turn.
So normally absolutely not. But you're not normal.
With your edit and accusation you show exactly why you're considered a bad faith operator. You know I was talking specifically about the JLM who organised the rabbis' letter. So for the gazillionth time, please stop editorialising my views to make your attacks.
Elder Grizzly: Pete Willsman says 68 rabbis "organised" by embassy to complain about "severe" anti-Semitism within Labour.
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 09:06 - Jun 27 by GlasgowBlue
You mean like this?
“ The actions against the Palestinian people by the Isaraeli government are disproportionate. The settlements on the West Bank are not only illegal they are provocative and should cease imidistely. . Netanyahu and his policies are a roadblock to any peaceful conclusion to the situation.”
Or this?
“Legitimate criticism of Israel is perfectly acceptable. No one on here has said anything to the contrary. And with Bibi in power legitimate criticism is very important. The man is a monster and is a roadblock to any peaceful solution. You can say that Israel is acting in an appalling manner with regards to the blockade of Gaza. You can say that the latest legislation that makes Arabs living ion Israel into second class citizens is racist legislation. The illegal Israeli settlements are a disgrace and should be bulldozed and the occupants forcibly removed. There I’ve just said it. It’s not anti-Semitic. “
That’s just two examples. I can find you loads more as It’s something I pretty much have to do on every thread regarding antisemitism. Which is piss poor when you think about it.
If a man of Islamic descent, with a Wife who came from a a Muslim family, was a vocal critic of Islamophobia on here would he be asked to give his views on ISIS or Saudi Arabia in order to justify his complaints? When Newcy speaks about the anti black racism his wife has received, is he asked to acknowledge some of the atrocities carried out by black governments around the world?
I’ve made clear my family background yet I have had posters come out with comments like “well you never mentioned having a Jewish wife before all this antisemitism blew up in the Labour Party”. As if it was something I should have declared right from the start. I have no idea of the ethnicity of anybody else’s partner in here. I don’t challenge anyone who speaks out against racism to give an opinion on any negative action from people of colour.
Edit. I’ve come back to this because the more I think about it the more pissed off I have become.
Re read your statement “ Although I would say, in closing, that it would be nice if once in a while - actually if it could be done pretty frequently, Glassers (and lowhouse for that matter) acknowledged the troubled lot of many ordinary Palestinians and what opinion he has on hopes for a two state solution.”
“actually if it could be done pretty frequently” .
Why should I have to declare my position on the Israel/Palestine conflict each time I speak about racist abuse aimed at British born Jews?The majority of posts I have made about antisemitism has rarely involved how it manifests in criticism of Israel. It’s mostly been about the abuse received by British Jews. Why the fcuk should I add a caveat regarding my views in a two state solution when discussing racist abuse received by British Jews.
Your statement fully sums up why antisemitism is treated differently than other forms of racism. You’re not the first to go down this particular road and you won’t be the last.
However, you’re an intelligent and decent person. I’d like to think you’ll revisit your statement and acknowledge how problematic it is.
[Post edited 27 Jun 2020 14:46]
Sorry to have taken so long to get back to you on this one, I was a thousand feet above the Coral Beach just beyond Dunvegan when you posted it. And now I am a bit knackered so this may be more brief than I would otherwise make it.
I do not accept that it is racist for me to request the consideration of the treatment of ordinary Palestinians during a thread on policing tactics employed by Israeli police. I am looking for balance and I do not think we will find it if we do not consider the background to the severe security situation in Israel. I have yet to visit the country but I have seen it from Jordan and experienced a touch of the consequences of the effect on a Palestinian through a conversation with one on the plane into Amman. He seemed a decent guy and I found it regrettable that his week off from work (in Sunderland - as if the guy was not suffering enough) had no guarantee of him getting across the border from Jordan to Israel and then from Israel into the West Bank to visit his parents. A couple of years later, on a rooftop in Jamaica, I was about to discuss this with an Israeli couple I was getting on well with but as soon as I asked what they thought of Palestinians I was met with the opinion that 'these people, they are not fit to be treated as humans'. When you meet attitudes like that you do wonder if the only possible two state solution they would consider is, as jeera put it above, a shrivelled micro state that is little more than an open prison.
So I get depressed and exhausted by the panglossian explanations that all the Palestinians have to do is behave or that all the Israelis have to do is hand over the policing to the United Nations or whatever. When we have a gamut that runs from holocaust deniers to those who cannot view history other than from a perspective of one single genocide and are unable to acknowledge all the others. When even within Judaism there are people who prefer lighter skins to darker skins. When Zionism is wrongly perceived as solely religious, or the nation state of Israel as being for Jews only, for that matter when the case of Nineteenth century Jews who were against Zionism is not publicised; their plea for cultural synthesis may have been idealistic but they foresaw how tyrants such as Hitler would manipulate the migrations to Palestine for their own political ends. And perhaps I am too tired at the moment to make a sufficiently strong plea to not try and give simplistic answers to complex questions so I will leave it there.
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 15:03 - Jun 27 by WeWereZombies
Sorry to have taken so long to get back to you on this one, I was a thousand feet above the Coral Beach just beyond Dunvegan when you posted it. And now I am a bit knackered so this may be more brief than I would otherwise make it.
I do not accept that it is racist for me to request the consideration of the treatment of ordinary Palestinians during a thread on policing tactics employed by Israeli police. I am looking for balance and I do not think we will find it if we do not consider the background to the severe security situation in Israel. I have yet to visit the country but I have seen it from Jordan and experienced a touch of the consequences of the effect on a Palestinian through a conversation with one on the plane into Amman. He seemed a decent guy and I found it regrettable that his week off from work (in Sunderland - as if the guy was not suffering enough) had no guarantee of him getting across the border from Jordan to Israel and then from Israel into the West Bank to visit his parents. A couple of years later, on a rooftop in Jamaica, I was about to discuss this with an Israeli couple I was getting on well with but as soon as I asked what they thought of Palestinians I was met with the opinion that 'these people, they are not fit to be treated as humans'. When you meet attitudes like that you do wonder if the only possible two state solution they would consider is, as jeera put it above, a shrivelled micro state that is little more than an open prison.
So I get depressed and exhausted by the panglossian explanations that all the Palestinians have to do is behave or that all the Israelis have to do is hand over the policing to the United Nations or whatever. When we have a gamut that runs from holocaust deniers to those who cannot view history other than from a perspective of one single genocide and are unable to acknowledge all the others. When even within Judaism there are people who prefer lighter skins to darker skins. When Zionism is wrongly perceived as solely religious, or the nation state of Israel as being for Jews only, for that matter when the case of Nineteenth century Jews who were against Zionism is not publicised; their plea for cultural synthesis may have been idealistic but they foresaw how tyrants such as Hitler would manipulate the migrations to Palestine for their own political ends. And perhaps I am too tired at the moment to make a sufficiently strong plea to not try and give simplistic answers to complex questions so I will leave it there.
"during a thread on policing tactics employed by Israeli police" is not unreasonable. But that's not what you posted.
You clearly stated that “ that it would be nice if once in a while - actually if it could be done pretty frequently, Glassers (and lowhouse for that matter) acknowledged the troubled lot of many ordinary Palestinians and what opinion he has on hopes for a two state solution.”
So not just on this particular thread.
Your post also ignores that I provided evidence that I had condemned the actions of the Israeli state on several occasions when this subject is being discussed.
I had hoped that you would see why your statement was problematic. Instead you've decided to double down on it.
Perhaps you'll give a simple yes or no to the question I asked DK? Should people complaining about Islamophobia in the Conservative Party, especially those with Muslim family members, be required to frequently state their position regarding Islamic terrorism before having their complaints taken at face value?
Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 15:17 - Jun 27 by GlasgowBlue
"during a thread on policing tactics employed by Israeli police" is not unreasonable. But that's not what you posted.
You clearly stated that “ that it would be nice if once in a while - actually if it could be done pretty frequently, Glassers (and lowhouse for that matter) acknowledged the troubled lot of many ordinary Palestinians and what opinion he has on hopes for a two state solution.”
So not just on this particular thread.
Your post also ignores that I provided evidence that I had condemned the actions of the Israeli state on several occasions when this subject is being discussed.
I had hoped that you would see why your statement was problematic. Instead you've decided to double down on it.
Perhaps you'll give a simple yes or no to the question I asked DK? Should people complaining about Islamophobia in the Conservative Party, especially those with Muslim family members, be required to frequently state their position regarding Islamic terrorism before having their complaints taken at face value?
[Post edited 27 Jun 2020 15:20]
There is a false equivalence in that final paragraph, terrorism is an illegitimate tactic used on people regardless of their involvement in an issue. Policing in a nation building phase of a state's development (and with effects that may curtail the establishment of another putative state) are necessary and legitimate but can also have negative effects upon a definable group of people.
You have provided evidence, and I am glad to see that. But my point was that I do not hear your voice in support of the plight of the Palestinians loudly enough. If I still say I want to hear it more frequently then that is why and that is what I mean. And if that is, In Moose speak, doubling down so be it. I call it taking care to adopt a viable position and holding the line unless it becomes untenable. But more than any of this I want to see the full range of issues discussed because not everyone who sees these 'sturm und drang' threads is even as uninformed as I am; it might actually be helpful to discuss why people have gotten to the point where they hold their views so strongly...and not to repeat the argument that happened on page one of a thread for another seven pages.
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