| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet 15:10 - Jun 25 with 20297 views | tractordownsouth |
Decisive action from Mr Starmer
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 16:57 - Jun 25 with 1671 views | BloomBlue |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 16:55 - Jun 25 by pointofblue |
In all honesty I think she was so desperate to promote pro-Corbyn material, even now, that she didn’t read the article in full (or at all - just the headline) before posting it. |
Should make an interesting evening if she's still flat sharing with Angela Rayner |  | | |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 16:58 - Jun 25 with 1673 views | monytowbray |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 16:50 - Jun 25 by Ryorry |
Great post.
I'm still struggling to see tho, why the activities of the Israeli state are being equated with being Jewish - isn't this another example of the age old problem of defining anti-semitism? Or is the key in your earlier post where you said such allegations were going on before the modern state of Israel was even founded? |
That was my point. too.
My issue is I struggle to trust any politicians these days. The words out their mouths in generally seem to mean very little in truth. Not even particularly bothered by being caught anymore. |  |
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 17:03 - Jun 25 with 1660 views | WeWereZombies |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 16:50 - Jun 25 by Ryorry |
Great post.
I'm still struggling to see tho, why the activities of the Israeli state are being equated with being Jewish - isn't this another example of the age old problem of defining anti-semitism? Or is the key in your earlier post where you said such allegations were going on before the modern state of Israel was even founded? |
I think the first picture I have seen of the kneeling on a neck came from the 1950s, i.e. after Israel was founded as a nation state. But not sure how much dialogue there would have been between state police in the United States and a fledgling Israeli force, especially when you consider the critical role that the British army had in the establishment of Israel (and which was paid for in the lives of British soldiers, especially at the King David Hotel bombing). So what I am trying to get over is that I doubt whether state police in the United States needed any Israeli training to kneel on the neck of George Floyd, I suspect they learnt that from a previous generation.
Furthermore the Amnesty report makes no mention of it as far as I can tell, and then the Amnesty report was revised anyway. So why did Maxine Peake write what she did? And why did Bailey-Long then repeat it without clarification? Dunno, maybe I have just gotten used to watching Nicola sidestep booby trap after booby trap whilst throwing punched left, right and centre; so when I see what a malarky politicians further south get into just be stepping into the ring then my tolerance starts to wane... |  |
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 17:17 - Jun 25 with 1609 views | Ryorry |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 17:03 - Jun 25 by WeWereZombies |
I think the first picture I have seen of the kneeling on a neck came from the 1950s, i.e. after Israel was founded as a nation state. But not sure how much dialogue there would have been between state police in the United States and a fledgling Israeli force, especially when you consider the critical role that the British army had in the establishment of Israel (and which was paid for in the lives of British soldiers, especially at the King David Hotel bombing). So what I am trying to get over is that I doubt whether state police in the United States needed any Israeli training to kneel on the neck of George Floyd, I suspect they learnt that from a previous generation.
Furthermore the Amnesty report makes no mention of it as far as I can tell, and then the Amnesty report was revised anyway. So why did Maxine Peake write what she did? And why did Bailey-Long then repeat it without clarification? Dunno, maybe I have just gotten used to watching Nicola sidestep booby trap after booby trap whilst throwing punched left, right and centre; so when I see what a malarky politicians further south get into just be stepping into the ring then my tolerance starts to wane... |
"So why did Maxine Peake write what she did? And why did Bailey-Long then repeat it without clarification?"
Dunno, but wouldn't Peake's writing of it & RBL's repeating it amount to an anti-Israeli stance rather than an anti-semitic one? Unless people believe, and have good reason to do so, that there was an unspoken subtext to what they were saying, ie they were covertly hinting towards an underlying antisemitic message. I've no idea about Peake's long-term political views, but can see it might apply to RLB. |  |
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 17:20 - Jun 25 with 1618 views | WeWereZombies |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 16:58 - Jun 25 by monytowbray |
That was my point. too.
My issue is I struggle to trust any politicians these days. The words out their mouths in generally seem to mean very little in truth. Not even particularly bothered by being caught anymore. |
I would prefer to leave the power struggle that goes on within Israeli politics to someone better qualified. Trouble is, I wonder if anyone is qualified to give a balanced view, and even if they were we would find that it was out of date by next week. But Israel was founded to give a home to Jewish people who preferred to make their life in what they saw as a homeland in the Middle East, in and around Jerusalem. Not being alive at the time I have no feel for how much was expected of it in terms of secular politics and devout religious adherence but there does seem to be a recent development of greater influence from hardline fundamentalists which gets reflected in military and policing practices.
Then there is the pressure for more land to be available for settlements as people from elsewhere in the World want to relocate to what they see as a homeland, as well as existing families expanding to need more space. The battle for resources is age old, and many cultures throughout history have driven out others as such needs arise, there is even a term for it, lebensraum, closely associated with a political movement at total odds to the aspirations of the Jews.
Apologies if you were looking for a simple yes/no answer, I cannot find my way through the tangle of religion, politics, social interaction and culture to give one. All I know is that I would like to see Palestinians get their homeland too, and for Jews not to be persecuted both by bombings in Israel and prejudice abroad, and for Black Lives to matter as much as white ones do in much of the United States (as well as some parts of Britain, France and so on). | |
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 17:26 - Jun 25 with 1600 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 15:48 - Jun 25 by tractordownsouth |
Because it's nowt to do with Israel. Police brutality in the US has unfortunately been a problem long before the founding of the Israeli state. There's also the issue of Peake's previous defence of Ken Livingstone, so calling her an "absolutely diamond" is ill-judged.
This also has to be brought into it - she was on thin ice as it was for failing to call out her supporters for similar comments at her hustings. |
I think the Israeli lobby (coordinated by the embassy and the Israeli government) do deserve a lot of blame too. It's been a concerted campaign against the left even before Corbyn.
If it was any other country like Russia then we'd be talking about it. But the accusation of antisemitism has got people running scared - just like McCarthyism and communism in the 1950s and just like then these are not progressive forces at work here.
Welcome to this post-Truth political world where all the truth is there if people could be @rsed to look. It's as bad as the Brexiteer nonsense. |  |
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 17:41 - Jun 25 with 1561 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 16:40 - Jun 25 by WeWereZombies |
You see, callis, the problem is not with our hearing (although I have plenty of that admittedly), it is that link has no mention of the practice of kneeling on the neck of someone in custody - so why assert that the Israelis trained United States forces to do so? Also, no mention of Minnesota in that link, Baltimore, yes - but that is a few miles away...
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, white American policemen have kneeling on the necks of black suspects for over sixty years now. Not all white American policemen, not all black suspects, not all the time - but enough for it to be symptomatic of the race problem that riddles and weakens society in the United States. To bring Israeli politics into this transfers the focus away from what happened to George Floyd, maybe not as much as answering 'Black Lives Matter' with 'All Lives Matter' but enough to distract us from a possible, perhaps a probable win, on something that has been going wrong for so long. I think it is important for all of us who care, whether we are black or white or Asian, whether we are Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist or secular, to unite in calling on the United States to put its house in order. Here's hoping that Glassers can share in that sentiment too. |
I think it's certainly unproven that there's a direct connection with the Israelis training US police officers to kneel on necks. So let's say it's not true at all.
But it doesn't detract from the training aspect nor should we be sympathetic to a brutal and oppressive regime. If Peake and the Guardian were wrong it's in the specific details of oppression and whether there's a clearer, more direct link rather than the already apparent one.
Either way, it's arguing over details and impugning the character of Israeli police and security forces who don't have much of a defence anyway. And in a very minor piece of the article.
Just seems entirely typical and predictable that this will be made into another politicized antisemitism allegation. And deeply concerning as to the integrity and principles of Starmer to go along with it. | |
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 17:48 - Jun 25 with 1540 views | tractordownsouth |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 17:26 - Jun 25 by Darth_Koont |
I think the Israeli lobby (coordinated by the embassy and the Israeli government) do deserve a lot of blame too. It's been a concerted campaign against the left even before Corbyn.
If it was any other country like Russia then we'd be talking about it. But the accusation of antisemitism has got people running scared - just like McCarthyism and communism in the 1950s and just like then these are not progressive forces at work here.
Welcome to this post-Truth political world where all the truth is there if people could be @rsed to look. It's as bad as the Brexiteer nonsense. |
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 17:52 - Jun 25 with 1539 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 17:20 - Jun 25 by WeWereZombies |
I would prefer to leave the power struggle that goes on within Israeli politics to someone better qualified. Trouble is, I wonder if anyone is qualified to give a balanced view, and even if they were we would find that it was out of date by next week. But Israel was founded to give a home to Jewish people who preferred to make their life in what they saw as a homeland in the Middle East, in and around Jerusalem. Not being alive at the time I have no feel for how much was expected of it in terms of secular politics and devout religious adherence but there does seem to be a recent development of greater influence from hardline fundamentalists which gets reflected in military and policing practices.
Then there is the pressure for more land to be available for settlements as people from elsewhere in the World want to relocate to what they see as a homeland, as well as existing families expanding to need more space. The battle for resources is age old, and many cultures throughout history have driven out others as such needs arise, there is even a term for it, lebensraum, closely associated with a political movement at total odds to the aspirations of the Jews.
Apologies if you were looking for a simple yes/no answer, I cannot find my way through the tangle of religion, politics, social interaction and culture to give one. All I know is that I would like to see Palestinians get their homeland too, and for Jews not to be persecuted both by bombings in Israel and prejudice abroad, and for Black Lives to matter as much as white ones do in much of the United States (as well as some parts of Britain, France and so on). |
Good post.
I think the key is to look for the balance at all times. So I certainly wouldn't be taking the views of Netanyahu, the religious right and settler movement in Israel, Trump and his unapologetically Evangelist "Peace Plan", or the zealots and reactionaries in the UK like the Board of Deputies and the Campaign Against Antisemitism et al nutters, or the right-wing islamophobic zionists like Tommy Robinson and we're back to Trump again.
Just as I wouldn't take the views of Hamas, antisemites, Islamic fundamentalists etc. who would deny an Israeli state.
The answer is definitely a long way between the two in a more humanist, compassionate and balanced view with the wellbeing of ordinary Israeli and Palestinian people at its heart.
Unfortunately we've become a little too partisan in the UK. Willingly as it taps into our acceptable levels of Islamophobia and unwittingly as we ignore how our political parties are being manipulated and threatened by the Lobby, almost to the same extent as the Democrats and Republicans are in the States.
I expect better from us. | |
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 17:59 - Jun 25 with 1514 views | jas0999 |
Good, strong decision from Starmer and a positive step in the right direction, tackling the shameful anti semitism within the Labour Party. Very impressed by Mr. Starmers decision. A key ally of Corbyn, Long- Bailey being moved to one side is in my view a great move in getting Labour back together. |  | | |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 17:59 - Jun 25 with 1511 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 17:48 - Jun 25 by tractordownsouth |
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I think her reasoning is specious here. And really sums up the dodgy position with regard to making this antisemitic.
She says criticism of Israel is fine but not if it's rooted in an antisemitic trope. She then presumes there is an antisemitic trope at play here about a race war orchestrated by the Jews.
Where did she get that from? And isn't she repeating an antisemitic trope herself? | |
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 18:02 - Jun 25 with 1493 views | lowhouseblue |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 15:26 - Jun 25 by Darth_Koont |
What was the article and what was the conspiracy theory?
I read the Maxine Peake one and saw nothing. |
well you wouldn't. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 18:05 - Jun 25 with 1473 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 17:59 - Jun 25 by Darth_Koont |
I think her reasoning is specious here. And really sums up the dodgy position with regard to making this antisemitic.
She says criticism of Israel is fine but not if it's rooted in an antisemitic trope. She then presumes there is an antisemitic trope at play here about a race war orchestrated by the Jews.
Where did she get that from? And isn't she repeating an antisemitic trope herself? |
Stop bending over backwards to defend antisemitism everything the subject is raised on here. It's embarrassing.
Oh and accusing the Board Of Deputies, the elected representative body of the British Jewish community, as being a bunch of zealots, reactionaries and nutters is utterly shamefull and you should edit that out.
If a right wing poster described the Muslim Council of Great Britain as such then they'd be called out as racists. |  |
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 18:05 - Jun 25 with 1484 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 18:02 - Jun 25 by lowhouseblue |
well you wouldn't. |
It wasn't in the version I read.
Then when I read what the Guardian had since removed I realised exactly what it was all about. | |
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 18:09 - Jun 25 with 1464 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 18:05 - Jun 25 by GlasgowBlue |
Stop bending over backwards to defend antisemitism everything the subject is raised on here. It's embarrassing.
Oh and accusing the Board Of Deputies, the elected representative body of the British Jewish community, as being a bunch of zealots, reactionaries and nutters is utterly shamefull and you should edit that out.
If a right wing poster described the Muslim Council of Great Britain as such then they'd be called out as racists. |
I'm not bending over backwards. This stuff is all in the public domain.
You've promoted a slanted, partisan picture of this from the start where hardcore Zionists and/or rightwing nationalists come together to destroy pro-Palestinian "lefties".
I'm quite happy being on the other side of history from Trump, Netanyahu, David Collier and you. I wonder which one will be the right one. | |
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 18:27 - Jun 25 with 1409 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 17:17 - Jun 25 by Ryorry |
"So why did Maxine Peake write what she did? And why did Bailey-Long then repeat it without clarification?"
Dunno, but wouldn't Peake's writing of it & RBL's repeating it amount to an anti-Israeli stance rather than an anti-semitic one? Unless people believe, and have good reason to do so, that there was an unspoken subtext to what they were saying, ie they were covertly hinting towards an underlying antisemitic message. I've no idea about Peake's long-term political views, but can see it might apply to RLB. |
It just looks like a stupid anti-Israel comment to me.
I suspect the sacking was more about trying to show he's taking a tough line, or possibly just an opportunity to remove another left-winger from the shadow cabinet.
With regards to some earlier points about an article not mentioning Minnesota police receiving training from Israel, this article makes it clear that they have:
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-us-police-training-end-knee-neck-prote |  | | |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 18:43 - Jun 25 with 1364 views | jeera |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 18:27 - Jun 25 by Clapham_Junction |
It just looks like a stupid anti-Israel comment to me.
I suspect the sacking was more about trying to show he's taking a tough line, or possibly just an opportunity to remove another left-winger from the shadow cabinet.
With regards to some earlier points about an article not mentioning Minnesota police receiving training from Israel, this article makes it clear that they have:
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-us-police-training-end-knee-neck-prote |
I'm not interested in getting over-involved in this but have to say I thought that wasn't much of an argument myself anyway.
That Minnesota was missed off that list didn't exactly discount the reasoning.
I'm sure people move home and even change jobs between states/departments and might even share some training methods!
It's not exactly 'out there' as something to consider as possible.
I'm sure there's plenty there for people to argue about if so inclined, but that seemed a bit desperate. [Post edited 25 Jun 2020 19:01]
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 18:46 - Jun 25 with 1361 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 17:52 - Jun 25 by Darth_Koont |
Good post.
I think the key is to look for the balance at all times. So I certainly wouldn't be taking the views of Netanyahu, the religious right and settler movement in Israel, Trump and his unapologetically Evangelist "Peace Plan", or the zealots and reactionaries in the UK like the Board of Deputies and the Campaign Against Antisemitism et al nutters, or the right-wing islamophobic zionists like Tommy Robinson and we're back to Trump again.
Just as I wouldn't take the views of Hamas, antisemites, Islamic fundamentalists etc. who would deny an Israeli state.
The answer is definitely a long way between the two in a more humanist, compassionate and balanced view with the wellbeing of ordinary Israeli and Palestinian people at its heart.
Unfortunately we've become a little too partisan in the UK. Willingly as it taps into our acceptable levels of Islamophobia and unwittingly as we ignore how our political parties are being manipulated and threatened by the Lobby, almost to the same extent as the Democrats and Republicans are in the States.
I expect better from us. |
What's going on, We Go Again?
Did you get new instructions from Moscow? | |
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 18:59 - Jun 25 with 1332 views | BlueBadger |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 16:34 - Jun 25 by linhdi |
Great to see decisive action taken by a political leader to remove an extremist from a position of responsibility.
I won't hold my breath waiting for Johnson to do the same. |
If he wants to rid his cabinet of bigots he should lead by example and resign... |  |
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 19:04 - Jun 25 with 1309 views | Ryorry |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 18:27 - Jun 25 by Clapham_Junction |
It just looks like a stupid anti-Israel comment to me.
I suspect the sacking was more about trying to show he's taking a tough line, or possibly just an opportunity to remove another left-winger from the shadow cabinet.
With regards to some earlier points about an article not mentioning Minnesota police receiving training from Israel, this article makes it clear that they have:
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-us-police-training-end-knee-neck-prote |
That was my impression, and I suspect the vast majority of the electorate who aren't particularly immersed in politics, let alone this particular topic, will struggle (as I have been) to sort out the wheat from the chaff here re this particular incident.
It may well have been "last straw" time for RLB, esp with KS being the new leader & needing to show that he's starting as he means to go on with a zero tolerance approach to A-S within Labour. However, I wish he'd started with a more clear-cut example - I think this one could lead to further problems brewing within Labour.
Will read the link later, thanks. | |
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 19:07 - Jun 25 with 1306 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 18:59 - Jun 25 by BlueBadger |
If he wants to rid his cabinet of bigots he should lead by example and resign... |
Maybe if you weren't propping up the rest of the islamophobes ...
They love Boris. | |
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 19:27 - Jun 25 with 1277 views | Bluefish |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 15:26 - Jun 25 by Darth_Koont |
What was the article and what was the conspiracy theory?
I read the Maxine Peake one and saw nothing. |
DK doesn't accept AS content. Never would have guessed that. |  |
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 19:48 - Jun 25 with 1234 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 19:27 - Jun 25 by Bluefish |
DK doesn't accept AS content. Never would have guessed that. |
No, I don't accept you.
Stick to one liners. | |
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 20:01 - Jun 25 with 1194 views | jeera |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 19:27 - Jun 25 by Bluefish |
DK doesn't accept AS content. Never would have guessed that. |
That is an outright lie.
I've seen DK condemn anti semitism several times on this forum.
Shame on you when you have start making stuff up in order to take snidey digs at someone.
You don't have to agree with everything he, or anyone says, but you're bang out of order. | |
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| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 20:05 - Jun 25 with 1184 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rebecca Long Bailey sacked from Shadow Cabinet on 20:01 - Jun 25 by jeera |
That is an outright lie.
I've seen DK condemn anti semitism several times on this forum.
Shame on you when you have start making stuff up in order to take snidey digs at someone.
You don't have to agree with everything he, or anyone says, but you're bang out of order. |
Cheers, mate.
I'm sure if Bluefish engaged for a paragraph or two then he'd realise. Or at least expose himself as not caring. | |
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