| Russia report 09:43 - Jul 21 with 3311 views | Swansea_Blue |
So then, what are we going to learn that we didn't already know? I'm going to stick my neck out and reckon mostly this:
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| Russia report on 14:08 - Jul 21 with 1557 views | Swansea_Blue |
Seems like I was wrong then. Very few redactions largely because we've been turning a blind eye, and despite all the signs they still won't launch a proper retrospective enquiry into the referendum.
So corrupt. | |
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| Russia report on 14:19 - Jul 21 with 1541 views | lowhouseblue |
| Russia report on 13:00 - Jul 21 by Herbivore |
It's the explanation you prefer, sure. I wouldn't have expected otherwise. |
and you have no evidence but you go with the explanation you prefer. i wouldn't have expected otherwise. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Russia report on 14:26 - Jul 21 with 1532 views | monytowbray |
| Russia report on 14:19 - Jul 21 by lowhouseblue |
and you have no evidence but you go with the explanation you prefer. i wouldn't have expected otherwise. |
I mean, if you need a government report with all the suspect stuff redacted to inform your "facts" you truly have reached the heel of a rather delicious shoe covered in dog sh1t. |  |
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| Russia report on 14:37 - Jul 21 with 1506 views | lowhouseblue |
| Russia report on 14:26 - Jul 21 by monytowbray |
I mean, if you need a government report with all the suspect stuff redacted to inform your "facts" you truly have reached the heel of a rather delicious shoe covered in dog sh1t. |
fine just make stuff instead. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Russia report on 14:44 - Jul 21 with 1490 views | Herbivore |
| Russia report on 14:19 - Jul 21 by lowhouseblue |
and you have no evidence but you go with the explanation you prefer. i wouldn't have expected otherwise. |
Actually I've suggested a possible alternative explanation, you are the one attributing likelihood to the given explanations. If you're going to be a smart arse you need to be smart as well as being an arse, Lowie. [Post edited 21 Jul 2020 14:44]
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| Russia report on 14:51 - Jul 21 with 1487 views | monytowbray |
| Russia report on 14:37 - Jul 21 by lowhouseblue |
fine just make stuff instead. |
What's been made up?
The more you post the more I wonder how you've lasted this long in the world lacking the ability of critical thought. | |
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| Russia report on 15:02 - Jul 21 with 1474 views | lowhouseblue |
| Russia report on 14:44 - Jul 21 by Herbivore |
Actually I've suggested a possible alternative explanation, you are the one attributing likelihood to the given explanations. If you're going to be a smart arse you need to be smart as well as being an arse, Lowie. [Post edited 21 Jul 2020 14:44]
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i'm sure you'll always see what you want to see. so don't let me stop you inventing stuff. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Russia report on 15:11 - Jul 21 with 1468 views | Herbivore |
| Russia report on 15:02 - Jul 21 by lowhouseblue |
i'm sure you'll always see what you want to see. so don't let me stop you inventing stuff. |
I'm not inventing anything. You went straight in with an explanation that the government were naive/stupid and I suggested an alternative possible explanation, which you dismissed before repeating your first explanation. Neither explanation is especially well-evidenced since one suggests the absence of intent, which by definition is hard to prove, and the other suggests wilful and purposeful ignorance, which is similarly hard to evidence. That you have gone straight for the more innocent explanation and dismissed other possible explanations whilst accusing others of being blinkered and making stuff up is telling, but sadly also very predictable. For what it's worth I think they could be either grossly incompetent or capable of deliberate ignorance, possibly even a bit of both. [Post edited 21 Jul 2020 15:33]
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| Russia report on 15:47 - Jul 21 with 1432 views | Herbivore |
So the government has refused calls from the ISC for an inquiry into possible Russian interference in the referendum in 2016. Now does that suggest naivety and stupidity or does it look more like deliberately not wanting to look at what might be there? Asking for a friend. | |
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| Russia report on 15:53 - Jul 21 with 1418 views | JDB23 |
| Russia report on 15:47 - Jul 21 by Herbivore |
So the government has refused calls from the ISC for an inquiry into possible Russian interference in the referendum in 2016. Now does that suggest naivety and stupidity or does it look more like deliberately not wanting to look at what might be there? Asking for a friend. |
Imagine my shock at right wing brexiteers equating a lack of evidence due to a refusal to look into interference with "Russia DID NOT INTERFERE! Take that you lefty traitors". |  | | |
| Russia report on 15:59 - Jul 21 with 1402 views | Herbivore |
| Russia report on 15:53 - Jul 21 by JDB23 |
Imagine my shock at right wing brexiteers equating a lack of evidence due to a refusal to look into interference with "Russia DID NOT INTERFERE! Take that you lefty traitors". |
The problem is if you go looking for something you might actually find it. Trump is still gutted they started testing people for Covid, if he hadn't bothered nobody in America would have got Covid. | |
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| Russia report on 07:37 - Jul 22 with 1319 views | Herbivore |
From the ICS:
“No-one knew if they’d interfered because they did not want to know. The UK government actively avoided looking for evidence”
But yeah, there's no evidence they may have deliberately turned a blind eye. It's definitely just naivety or stupidity. | |
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| Russia report on 08:57 - Jul 22 with 1278 views | lowhouseblue |
| Russia report on 07:37 - Jul 22 by Herbivore |
From the ICS:
“No-one knew if they’d interfered because they did not want to know. The UK government actively avoided looking for evidence”
But yeah, there's no evidence they may have deliberately turned a blind eye. It's definitely just naivety or stupidity. |
i've now looked at the actual report - i can't find your quote in it. is that perhaps the opinion of one individual member of the committee not a conclusion of the report? polite to make that clear. what the report says on the eu referendum is:
"39. There have been widespread public allegations that Russia sought to influence the
2016 referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU. The impact of any such attempts
would be difficult — if not impossible — to assess, and we have not sought to do so. However,
it is important to establish whether a hostile state took deliberate action with the aim of
influencing a UK democratic process, irrespective of whether it was successful or not.
40. Open source studies have pointed to the preponderance of pro-Brexit or anti-EU
stories on RT and Sputnik, and the use of ‘bots’ and ‘trolls’, as evidence of Russian attempts
to influence the process.42 We have sought to establish whether there is secret intelligence
which supported or built on these studies. In response to our request for written evidence at
the outset of the Inquiry, MI5 initially provided just six lines of text. It stated that ***, before
referring to academic studies.43 This was noteworthy in terms of the way it was couched
(***) and the reference to open source studies ***. The brevity was also, to us, again,
indicative of the extreme caution amongst the intelligence and security Agencies at the
thought that they might have any role in relation to the UK’s democratic processes, and
particularly one as contentious as the EU referendum. We repeat that this attitude is illogical;
this is about the protection of the process and mechanism from hostile state interference,
which should fall to our intelligence and security Agencies."
and
"47. We have not been provided with any post-referendum assessment of Russian
attempts at interference, ***.53 This situation is in stark contrast to the US handling of
allegations of Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election, where an intelligence
community assessment54 was produced within two months of the vote, with an unclassified
summary being made public. Whilst the issues at stake in the EU referendum campaign are
less clear-cut, it is nonetheless the Committee’s view that the UK Intelligence Community
should produce an analogous assessment of potential Russian interference in the EU
referendum and that an unclassified summary of it be published.55
48. ***. Even if the conclusion of any such assessment were that there was minimal
interference, this would nonetheless represent a helpful reassurance to the public that the
UK’s democratic processes had remained relatively safe."
"extreme caution" is suggestive of error and incompetence without implying intent.
the actual report, rather than the media coverage, is interesting in that it is mostly about what we should do now in terms of reforming our intelligence infrastructure and law in order to confront russian efforts. there is no point scoring over the eu election so you won't have much use for it. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Russia report on 09:06 - Jul 22 with 1261 views | linhdi |
| Russia report on 15:53 - Jul 21 by JDB23 |
Imagine my shock at right wing brexiteers equating a lack of evidence due to a refusal to look into interference with "Russia DID NOT INTERFERE! Take that you lefty traitors". |
Spot on. The Russia-funded Tory Party got the referendum result they wanted, so of course they are not going to investigate how their Russian friends might have helped. They already know, and they don't want us to know.
If Johnson had got his way and Grayling had led the Committee, I expect the dog would have eaten the report before it was (belatedly) published. | | | |
| Russia report on 09:07 - Jul 22 with 1260 views | Herbivore |
| Russia report on 08:57 - Jul 22 by lowhouseblue |
i've now looked at the actual report - i can't find your quote in it. is that perhaps the opinion of one individual member of the committee not a conclusion of the report? polite to make that clear. what the report says on the eu referendum is:
"39. There have been widespread public allegations that Russia sought to influence the
2016 referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU. The impact of any such attempts
would be difficult — if not impossible — to assess, and we have not sought to do so. However,
it is important to establish whether a hostile state took deliberate action with the aim of
influencing a UK democratic process, irrespective of whether it was successful or not.
40. Open source studies have pointed to the preponderance of pro-Brexit or anti-EU
stories on RT and Sputnik, and the use of ‘bots’ and ‘trolls’, as evidence of Russian attempts
to influence the process.42 We have sought to establish whether there is secret intelligence
which supported or built on these studies. In response to our request for written evidence at
the outset of the Inquiry, MI5 initially provided just six lines of text. It stated that ***, before
referring to academic studies.43 This was noteworthy in terms of the way it was couched
(***) and the reference to open source studies ***. The brevity was also, to us, again,
indicative of the extreme caution amongst the intelligence and security Agencies at the
thought that they might have any role in relation to the UK’s democratic processes, and
particularly one as contentious as the EU referendum. We repeat that this attitude is illogical;
this is about the protection of the process and mechanism from hostile state interference,
which should fall to our intelligence and security Agencies."
and
"47. We have not been provided with any post-referendum assessment of Russian
attempts at interference, ***.53 This situation is in stark contrast to the US handling of
allegations of Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election, where an intelligence
community assessment54 was produced within two months of the vote, with an unclassified
summary being made public. Whilst the issues at stake in the EU referendum campaign are
less clear-cut, it is nonetheless the Committee’s view that the UK Intelligence Community
should produce an analogous assessment of potential Russian interference in the EU
referendum and that an unclassified summary of it be published.55
48. ***. Even if the conclusion of any such assessment were that there was minimal
interference, this would nonetheless represent a helpful reassurance to the public that the
UK’s democratic processes had remained relatively safe."
"extreme caution" is suggestive of error and incompetence without implying intent.
the actual report, rather than the media coverage, is interesting in that it is mostly about what we should do now in terms of reforming our intelligence infrastructure and law in order to confront russian efforts. there is no point scoring over the eu election so you won't have much use for it. |
"Extreme caution" suggests a cognisant decision to take or not take a stance as opposed to being mere ignorance. One is generally not cautious towards something one does not know about.
There is also the small matter of the government immediately ruling out looking into Russian interference in UK elections. That suggests a wilful turning of a blind eye rather than mere incompetence. That you refuse to see that is, I would suggest, you also wilfully turning a blind eye.
This isn't about point scoring, it's about the integrity of our democracy. Something you seem to care very little about, Oleg-bot. | |
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| Russia report on 09:27 - Jul 22 with 1246 views | lowhouseblue |
| Russia report on 09:07 - Jul 22 by Herbivore |
"Extreme caution" suggests a cognisant decision to take or not take a stance as opposed to being mere ignorance. One is generally not cautious towards something one does not know about.
There is also the small matter of the government immediately ruling out looking into Russian interference in UK elections. That suggests a wilful turning of a blind eye rather than mere incompetence. That you refuse to see that is, I would suggest, you also wilfully turning a blind eye.
This isn't about point scoring, it's about the integrity of our democracy. Something you seem to care very little about, Oleg-bot. |
"One is generally not cautious towards something one does not know about. " utter waffle and nonsense.
your attempts to misrepresent the report - i see you don't deny misattributing the quote - is entirely to do with point scoring over the eu referendum.
IF you read it, the report shows incompetence and neglect - which are very bad - but there is nothing there to imply intent. you are spinning that addition.
but I'm not pursuing this further with you since there is really no point. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Russia report on 09:32 - Jul 22 with 1236 views | footers |
| Russia report on 09:27 - Jul 22 by lowhouseblue |
"One is generally not cautious towards something one does not know about. " utter waffle and nonsense.
your attempts to misrepresent the report - i see you don't deny misattributing the quote - is entirely to do with point scoring over the eu referendum.
IF you read it, the report shows incompetence and neglect - which are very bad - but there is nothing there to imply intent. you are spinning that addition.
but I'm not pursuing this further with you since there is really no point. |
Unless you can definitively prove he's spinning it, you'll have to put it down to incompetence rather than a deliberate attempt, I'm afraid. [Post edited 22 Jul 2020 9:50]
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| Russia report on 09:43 - Jul 22 with 1207 views | Herbivore |
| Russia report on 09:27 - Jul 22 by lowhouseblue |
"One is generally not cautious towards something one does not know about. " utter waffle and nonsense.
your attempts to misrepresent the report - i see you don't deny misattributing the quote - is entirely to do with point scoring over the eu referendum.
IF you read it, the report shows incompetence and neglect - which are very bad - but there is nothing there to imply intent. you are spinning that addition.
but I'm not pursuing this further with you since there is really no point. |
It's not waffle and nonsense though, it's true. If one is not really aware of something one doesn't tend to be cautious towards it. That suggests there was a deliberate decision to ignore it. Wilful ignorance, which is what I originally said was the case.
The quote wasn't misattributed, it was from the ISC press conference yesterday and the quote was in the Beeb's original headline for the story. I didn't say it was from the report. You are once again reading things that aren't there to suit your agenda. Typical lowhouse sadly.
I am quite happy for you to not go back and forth with me on this. It is indeed a waste of time as you won't debate honestly and you seem utterly blind to the possibility that it suited certain agendas to turn a blind eye to possible Russian interference. You are horribly blinkered on this and to any suggestion this government might be genuinely corrupt rather than just utterly incompetent.
You've ignored a number of times now the government immediately ruling out any inquiry as it doesn't fit your narrative that there's no intent in ignoring possible interference. That is very telling.
You have, in all honesty, become something of a shill and a stooge for a government you should by all rights despise. You've gone full 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' because of your anger at 'lefties'. It taints your ability to debate honestly and makes any discussion with you a fruitless pursuit. Sad. [Post edited 22 Jul 2020 9:45]
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| Russia report on 10:30 - Jul 22 with 1175 views | lowhouseblue |
| Russia report on 09:43 - Jul 22 by Herbivore |
It's not waffle and nonsense though, it's true. If one is not really aware of something one doesn't tend to be cautious towards it. That suggests there was a deliberate decision to ignore it. Wilful ignorance, which is what I originally said was the case.
The quote wasn't misattributed, it was from the ISC press conference yesterday and the quote was in the Beeb's original headline for the story. I didn't say it was from the report. You are once again reading things that aren't there to suit your agenda. Typical lowhouse sadly.
I am quite happy for you to not go back and forth with me on this. It is indeed a waste of time as you won't debate honestly and you seem utterly blind to the possibility that it suited certain agendas to turn a blind eye to possible Russian interference. You are horribly blinkered on this and to any suggestion this government might be genuinely corrupt rather than just utterly incompetent.
You've ignored a number of times now the government immediately ruling out any inquiry as it doesn't fit your narrative that there's no intent in ignoring possible interference. That is very telling.
You have, in all honesty, become something of a shill and a stooge for a government you should by all rights despise. You've gone full 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' because of your anger at 'lefties'. It taints your ability to debate honestly and makes any discussion with you a fruitless pursuit. Sad. [Post edited 22 Jul 2020 9:45]
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not continuing the discussion about the russia report, but the truth is that while, i strongly disagree with the current government on all sorts of policy issues and think that they are utterly incompetent chancers, in terms of dishonesty, vacuousness, agenda driven blinkered narrowness, intolerance, and brainless repetitive spinning, i find a lot of social media 'lefties' just as bad as the boris right. the idea of nodding along with one to oppose the other is pretty repulsive. i want a starmer government, but that's a very long way off. the thing that the whole corbyn farce has given me is an escape from tribal loyalty and the ability to objectively see both left and right. the truth is that as you move in either direction neither are terribly pretty and all they do is spin their respective twitter feeds. i also find the gang type behaviour of a group on here pretty unpleasant and it's always fun to pick an argument with would be internet bullies. if there was an equivalent gang of boris supporters who teamed up to shout others down it would be just as much fun. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Russia report on 10:34 - Jul 22 with 1163 views | Herbivore |
| Russia report on 10:30 - Jul 22 by lowhouseblue |
not continuing the discussion about the russia report, but the truth is that while, i strongly disagree with the current government on all sorts of policy issues and think that they are utterly incompetent chancers, in terms of dishonesty, vacuousness, agenda driven blinkered narrowness, intolerance, and brainless repetitive spinning, i find a lot of social media 'lefties' just as bad as the boris right. the idea of nodding along with one to oppose the other is pretty repulsive. i want a starmer government, but that's a very long way off. the thing that the whole corbyn farce has given me is an escape from tribal loyalty and the ability to objectively see both left and right. the truth is that as you move in either direction neither are terribly pretty and all they do is spin their respective twitter feeds. i also find the gang type behaviour of a group on here pretty unpleasant and it's always fun to pick an argument with would be internet bullies. if there was an equivalent gang of boris supporters who teamed up to shout others down it would be just as much fun. |
TWTD bully claxon!
I guess playing that card is easier than responding to my points. | |
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| Russia report on 10:54 - Jul 22 with 1136 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Russia report on 09:27 - Jul 22 by lowhouseblue |
"One is generally not cautious towards something one does not know about. " utter waffle and nonsense.
your attempts to misrepresent the report - i see you don't deny misattributing the quote - is entirely to do with point scoring over the eu referendum.
IF you read it, the report shows incompetence and neglect - which are very bad - but there is nothing there to imply intent. you are spinning that addition.
but I'm not pursuing this further with you since there is really no point. |
I could be wrong and none of us know what's going on behind the scenes, but that's a slightly naive viewpoint isn't it? Russia have been cultivating political contacts and donating £millions into the Tory coffers precisely to get them to turn a blind eye. I can't believe in a million years that we haven't acted against a security threat to this country purely because of incompetence (although no doubt there is that aspect as well). Their complicity has been bought. | |
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| Russia report on 10:58 - Jul 22 with 1130 views | Herbivore |
| Russia report on 10:54 - Jul 22 by Swansea_Blue |
I could be wrong and none of us know what's going on behind the scenes, but that's a slightly naive viewpoint isn't it? Russia have been cultivating political contacts and donating £millions into the Tory coffers precisely to get them to turn a blind eye. I can't believe in a million years that we haven't acted against a security threat to this country purely because of incompetence (although no doubt there is that aspect as well). Their complicity has been bought. |
And there is the not insignificant fact that the government's primary response to the report has been to refuse the recommendation for an inquiry into interference during the referendum campaign. That might just be rank incompetence but it seems more lkekly they are continuing to wilfully turn a blind eye as it is politically convenient for them to do so. Why else would they not want to get to the bottom of potential interference in our democratic processes? | |
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| Russia report on 11:24 - Jul 22 with 1111 views | Darth_Koont |
| Russia report on 10:30 - Jul 22 by lowhouseblue |
not continuing the discussion about the russia report, but the truth is that while, i strongly disagree with the current government on all sorts of policy issues and think that they are utterly incompetent chancers, in terms of dishonesty, vacuousness, agenda driven blinkered narrowness, intolerance, and brainless repetitive spinning, i find a lot of social media 'lefties' just as bad as the boris right. the idea of nodding along with one to oppose the other is pretty repulsive. i want a starmer government, but that's a very long way off. the thing that the whole corbyn farce has given me is an escape from tribal loyalty and the ability to objectively see both left and right. the truth is that as you move in either direction neither are terribly pretty and all they do is spin their respective twitter feeds. i also find the gang type behaviour of a group on here pretty unpleasant and it's always fun to pick an argument with would be internet bullies. if there was an equivalent gang of boris supporters who teamed up to shout others down it would be just as much fun. |
Pipe down, Penfold.
You continue to show the very worst of our party politics. And so little concern for the underlying issues just how you can leverage them. |  |
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| Russia report on 11:45 - Jul 22 with 1091 views | monytowbray |
| Russia report on 10:30 - Jul 22 by lowhouseblue |
not continuing the discussion about the russia report, but the truth is that while, i strongly disagree with the current government on all sorts of policy issues and think that they are utterly incompetent chancers, in terms of dishonesty, vacuousness, agenda driven blinkered narrowness, intolerance, and brainless repetitive spinning, i find a lot of social media 'lefties' just as bad as the boris right. the idea of nodding along with one to oppose the other is pretty repulsive. i want a starmer government, but that's a very long way off. the thing that the whole corbyn farce has given me is an escape from tribal loyalty and the ability to objectively see both left and right. the truth is that as you move in either direction neither are terribly pretty and all they do is spin their respective twitter feeds. i also find the gang type behaviour of a group on here pretty unpleasant and it's always fun to pick an argument with would be internet bullies. if there was an equivalent gang of boris supporters who teamed up to shout others down it would be just as much fun. |
When fascism comes in its full form I’ll be giving you regular reminders of how much blood you have on your hands personally. | |
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| Russia report on 11:47 - Jul 22 with 1084 views | monytowbray |
| Russia report on 10:54 - Jul 22 by Swansea_Blue |
I could be wrong and none of us know what's going on behind the scenes, but that's a slightly naive viewpoint isn't it? Russia have been cultivating political contacts and donating £millions into the Tory coffers precisely to get them to turn a blind eye. I can't believe in a million years that we haven't acted against a security threat to this country purely because of incompetence (although no doubt there is that aspect as well). Their complicity has been bought. |
The evidence of it is out in the open. The jigsaw pieces we do have all fit.
Yet BootLickBlue chooses to believe what Johnson tells him and shout about Lefties.
🤷â€â™‚ï¸ | |
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