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The next time anyone feels they have to absolutely win an argument, have the last say on a thread, pile in or claim to be piled into, maybe remember this:
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 16:21 - Aug 4 by BrixtonBlue
Is it not possible that the intelligent life still around then will have mastered the ability to artificially create their own stars?
It's not possible. Heat death means that there is no energy left in the universe which one could manipulate.
Thus even if they had the knowledge to create a star (which they probably would) there would be no viable materials to use and you can't make something out of nothing without violating other laws.
Probably the last sources of energy would be harvesting gravity from a black hole but eventually entropy will win there as well and there will be nothing left.
SB
Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula
2
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:06 - Aug 4 with 5694 views
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 16:52 - Aug 4 by Ryorry
Yes, the wording's probably wrong there - I meant while we are here, positivity & good things make it a helluva lot pleasanter & easier to get through than negativity & bad things. Having a great purpose also figures, esp if it's something beneficial in the long-term, such as helping to preserve our environment for future generations of humans & other animals.
Can't disagree with that (my "yes" to your previous post was a joke by the way).
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:01 - Aug 4 by BrixtonBlue
"Errr, what from?"
If I knew that I'd be a billionaire. We're talking trillions of years into the future, how could I possibly know?
A few hundred years go people would've laughed at the notion of horseless carriages, photography, sending messages through the air etc. I hardly think the ability to create a star will be beyond the realms of future science.
There are two different things here:
- Creating a star - almost certainly possible and probably not even that hard for a sufficiently advanced culture. Jupiter isn't that far off being ignitable although more material would need to be added.
- Can it be done at the heat death - almost certainly not. The examples you've given so show technological progress do not violate fundamental laws of physics.
SB
Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula
0
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:12 - Aug 4 with 5673 views
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:03 - Aug 4 by StokieBlue
It's not possible. Heat death means that there is no energy left in the universe which one could manipulate.
Thus even if they had the knowledge to create a star (which they probably would) there would be no viable materials to use and you can't make something out of nothing without violating other laws.
Probably the last sources of energy would be harvesting gravity from a black hole but eventually entropy will win there as well and there will be nothing left.
SB
Perhaps Dark Energy is the answer, once discovered?
I get the idea of heat death... but we also know particles can just pop into existence from nothing, seemingly. So does that not leave the possibility that there will always be 'something'?
And wherever those particles come from (assuming they come from 'somewhere' - say another universe) is it not possible that future intelligent life will be able to travel to that other place?
I realise I'm veering into science fiction here, but it's an interesting discussion nevertheless.
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:14 - Aug 4 by BrixtonBlue
Well yeah, you can say it, doesn't mean that it is one though.
In the absence of any evidence of there being any meaning of life it's reasonable to assert that there is no meaning of life. The burden of proof is on the person asserting that there is a meaning of life to provide evidence of such.
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:12 - Aug 4 by BrixtonBlue
Perhaps Dark Energy is the answer, once discovered?
I get the idea of heat death... but we also know particles can just pop into existence from nothing, seemingly. So does that not leave the possibility that there will always be 'something'?
And wherever those particles come from (assuming they come from 'somewhere' - say another universe) is it not possible that future intelligent life will be able to travel to that other place?
I realise I'm veering into science fiction here, but it's an interesting discussion nevertheless.
You are talking about vacuum energy which does exist but at the moment it exists because the universe isn't evenly distributed with regards to energy. Trillions of years into the future the energy will be even distributed and then everything will cool.
There won't be vacuum energy then.
It's literally the end of this universe. As you say it's possible something might travel to another universe but that the moment that is science fiction as you say.
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:17 - Aug 4 by Herbivore
In the absence of any evidence of there being any meaning of life it's reasonable to assert that there is no meaning of life. The burden of proof is on the person asserting that there is a meaning of life to provide evidence of such.
Nevertheless, it still doesn't make it a fact, only your opinion.
I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but I reckon the meaning of life could be 'experience.' Perhaps we experience many lives in order to gain knowledge and become a higher being. Which I believe is Buddhism?
I'm not stating it as a fact though, just an opinion. If we only stuck with everything we can definitely prove right now, science would never move forward at all.
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:19 - Aug 4 by StokieBlue
You are talking about vacuum energy which does exist but at the moment it exists because the universe isn't evenly distributed with regards to energy. Trillions of years into the future the energy will be even distributed and then everything will cool.
There won't be vacuum energy then.
It's literally the end of this universe. As you say it's possible something might travel to another universe but that the moment that is science fiction as you say.
SB
[Post edited 4 Aug 2020 17:19]
Is it still a fact that the universe is expanding faster and faster?
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:23 - Aug 4 by BrixtonBlue
Nevertheless, it still doesn't make it a fact, only your opinion.
I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but I reckon the meaning of life could be 'experience.' Perhaps we experience many lives in order to gain knowledge and become a higher being. Which I believe is Buddhism?
I'm not stating it as a fact though, just an opinion. If we only stuck with everything we can definitely prove right now, science would never move forward at all.
Do you think the statement "there is no such thing as unicorns" is just an opinion? The absence of any evidence of the existence of unicorns would suggest that it is a fact. Facts as we generally speak about them are always based on our current knowledge, they are not immutable. They can be proven wrong by subsequent evidence. It used to be considered a fact (not an opinion) that all swans are white, until that is we discovered the existence of black swans. Until we find evidence that there is a meaning of life I am confident in asserting, as a truth, that there is no meaning of life.
Entropy is the other "ending" I've seen proposed. Where we end up with all energy and material (effectively the same thing) spread evenly thoughout the entire universe.
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:34 - Aug 4 by Guthrum
Entropy is the other "ending" I've seen proposed. Where we end up with all energy and material (effectively the same thing) spread evenly thoughout the entire universe.
That's part of the theory of heat death.
The energy and matter is distributed as you've said (with mechanical energy being converted into heat) and then cools to a state where it's unable to support anything.
SB
Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula
1
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 18:10 - Aug 4 with 5567 views
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:30 - Aug 4 by Herbivore
Do you think the statement "there is no such thing as unicorns" is just an opinion? The absence of any evidence of the existence of unicorns would suggest that it is a fact. Facts as we generally speak about them are always based on our current knowledge, they are not immutable. They can be proven wrong by subsequent evidence. It used to be considered a fact (not an opinion) that all swans are white, until that is we discovered the existence of black swans. Until we find evidence that there is a meaning of life I am confident in asserting, as a truth, that there is no meaning of life.
I think unicorns is a different matter, because we know they were invented for storytelling purposes. No-one, outside children, has ever asserted that they could be real. Indeed, although we don't know about every species of animal on the planet, a unicorn, being the size of a horse, we'd have discovered by now.
You're quite right that there's no evidence yet for a meaning to life, I just find people who assert it (and assert there's definitely no god, aliens etc.) as odd as those who definitely assert that there are.
I don't have any evidence for them, but I'm not going to definitely assert that they're not real either. I just keep an open mind. I see no value in definitely asserting these things one way or the other. What does it achieve?
Also, meaning is an intangible thing and very difficult to prove anyway. Unlike a unicorn, which is a physical thing (or, rather, not).
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 18:10 - Aug 4 by BrixtonBlue
I think unicorns is a different matter, because we know they were invented for storytelling purposes. No-one, outside children, has ever asserted that they could be real. Indeed, although we don't know about every species of animal on the planet, a unicorn, being the size of a horse, we'd have discovered by now.
You're quite right that there's no evidence yet for a meaning to life, I just find people who assert it (and assert there's definitely no god, aliens etc.) as odd as those who definitely assert that there are.
I don't have any evidence for them, but I'm not going to definitely assert that they're not real either. I just keep an open mind. I see no value in definitely asserting these things one way or the other. What does it achieve?
Also, meaning is an intangible thing and very difficult to prove anyway. Unlike a unicorn, which is a physical thing (or, rather, not).
Meaning of life is also something that was constructed for the purposes of storytelling, in particular for the purposes of telling grand moral tales about humanity. It's what underpins the stories that make up the major religious texts, and they are stories regardless of whether you happen to believe in god or not.
Belief in a meaning of life is just that, a belief. It is feeling something to be the case despite an absence of evidence for it. By contrast, the view that there is no meaning of life does not require belief. It is a position founded on there being no evidence of a meaning of life, much in the same way there is no evidence of the existence of unicorns. If you felt that unicorns were real that would be a belief, a somewhat delusional one at that.
You are right to say that meaning is different to unicorns but I think you're wrong in how you see them as being different. I think you see meaning as potentially being 'out there' (albeit intangible) and discoverable in principle at least, if only we could find out how to connect with it. Actually, meaning is very much a human phenomenon. We attach meaning and significance to things. It's what we do. It's a central characteristic of us as humans. In that respect meaning of life could exist, but it would always be entirely subjective and based on how an individual or group choose to attribute meaning to life. We see this with various groups that have a belief system. That said, the meaning would still not exist outside of those individuals or groups and could not be determined by anything out in the world. A unicorn, by contrast, we might potentially stumble upon in a remote part of the rainforest one day.
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 18:21 - Aug 4 by Herbivore
Meaning of life is also something that was constructed for the purposes of storytelling, in particular for the purposes of telling grand moral tales about humanity. It's what underpins the stories that make up the major religious texts, and they are stories regardless of whether you happen to believe in god or not.
Belief in a meaning of life is just that, a belief. It is feeling something to be the case despite an absence of evidence for it. By contrast, the view that there is no meaning of life does not require belief. It is a position founded on there being no evidence of a meaning of life, much in the same way there is no evidence of the existence of unicorns. If you felt that unicorns were real that would be a belief, a somewhat delusional one at that.
You are right to say that meaning is different to unicorns but I think you're wrong in how you see them as being different. I think you see meaning as potentially being 'out there' (albeit intangible) and discoverable in principle at least, if only we could find out how to connect with it. Actually, meaning is very much a human phenomenon. We attach meaning and significance to things. It's what we do. It's a central characteristic of us as humans. In that respect meaning of life could exist, but it would always be entirely subjective and based on how an individual or group choose to attribute meaning to life. We see this with various groups that have a belief system. That said, the meaning would still not exist outside of those individuals or groups and could not be determined by anything out in the world. A unicorn, by contrast, we might potentially stumble upon in a remote part of the rainforest one day.
Do humans not simply attribute meaning to things because we can - i.e. we're intelligent enough to? Just because a blue tit can't attach meaning to something (assuming it can't) doesn't mean that thing doesn't have meaning.
To me it seems that everything existing, and evolving, to the amazing complexity we have now - and the disparity between general relativity and quantum mechanics - is too odd/weird to have just 'happened,' just by accident. It's the most incredible accident ever!
That's before getting into why you, and I, have consciousness. Where that comes from. Or why I didn't have the consciousness of Herbivore and you didn't have the consciousness of Dollers.
Why does anything exist at all? Why do things come into existence and go out of it again? Why do the laws exist as they do? Where the feck did gravity come from?! I think saying "they just are" and shutting up shop is unsatisfactory and very closed minded.
As I said, what does it achieve to just say "no, these things don't exist"? What do you actually gain from not keeping an open mind, apart from some sort of perceived intellectual superiority?
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 18:48 - Aug 4 by BrixtonBlue
Do humans not simply attribute meaning to things because we can - i.e. we're intelligent enough to? Just because a blue tit can't attach meaning to something (assuming it can't) doesn't mean that thing doesn't have meaning.
To me it seems that everything existing, and evolving, to the amazing complexity we have now - and the disparity between general relativity and quantum mechanics - is too odd/weird to have just 'happened,' just by accident. It's the most incredible accident ever!
That's before getting into why you, and I, have consciousness. Where that comes from. Or why I didn't have the consciousness of Herbivore and you didn't have the consciousness of Dollers.
Why does anything exist at all? Why do things come into existence and go out of it again? Why do the laws exist as they do? Where the feck did gravity come from?! I think saying "they just are" and shutting up shop is unsatisfactory and very closed minded.
As I said, what does it achieve to just say "no, these things don't exist"? What do you actually gain from not keeping an open mind, apart from some sort of perceived intellectual superiority?
I just don't feel the need to delude myself that there's some great mystery or some greater purpose to it all. I don't think that's unreasonable.
You're right that we attach meaning to things because we can, that's precisely my point. We attach meaning to them. The meaning does not exist independently of us ascribing it. There is no meaning of life for a blue tit because the blue tit isn't capable of inventing one.
This stuff interests you and you want to believe that there is something more to life than just a bunch of atoms and sh!t. That's fine but it's a form of belief akin to religion to go down that road, even if you're not saying it is a god that is the source of life and what gives it meaning. That's fine, each to their own. But my assertion that there is no meaning of life is not on a par with your belief that there is or could be. My assertion is grounded on the absence of any evidence - including reasoned argument - to the contrary. Your assertion is based on belief and nothing more.
I admit your belief it a bit more romantic than my assertion that there is no meaning of life, but I can live with that. The trick is to be able to still live a meaningful life despite knowing there is no meaning outside of oneself. Many people struggle with that, which is why so many people still hold on to belief of one form or another. Cheerful nihilism or some form of humanism are probably the way forward.
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 18:57 - Aug 4 by Herbivore
I just don't feel the need to delude myself that there's some great mystery or some greater purpose to it all. I don't think that's unreasonable.
You're right that we attach meaning to things because we can, that's precisely my point. We attach meaning to them. The meaning does not exist independently of us ascribing it. There is no meaning of life for a blue tit because the blue tit isn't capable of inventing one.
This stuff interests you and you want to believe that there is something more to life than just a bunch of atoms and sh!t. That's fine but it's a form of belief akin to religion to go down that road, even if you're not saying it is a god that is the source of life and what gives it meaning. That's fine, each to their own. But my assertion that there is no meaning of life is not on a par with your belief that there is or could be. My assertion is grounded on the absence of any evidence - including reasoned argument - to the contrary. Your assertion is based on belief and nothing more.
I admit your belief it a bit more romantic than my assertion that there is no meaning of life, but I can live with that. The trick is to be able to still live a meaningful life despite knowing there is no meaning outside of oneself. Many people struggle with that, which is why so many people still hold on to belief of one form or another. Cheerful nihilism or some form of humanism are probably the way forward.
That's a fair and rational view. It's fine to think it... I just don't see why you'd broadcast it so vigorously. I can understand why religious fundamentalists broadcast it, just not sure why those at the opposite end feel the need to. It's like shouting about the beauty of a blank canvas.
By the way, I don't subscribe to your absence of evidence. To me, the evidence something incredible, something we can't fathom, and yes something with some meaning, even if we don't know what that meaning is, has happened and is all around us. Even if you say Mother Nature is god, evolution is god, it's still valid. I don't subscribe to the old man with a big beard, or the chubby fella, or anything designed by man to mean 'god'. But the evidence that something beyond our understanding has happened is in front of you right now.
It might sound weird, but I feel like the fact that we don't understand it - and every rational explanation falls down under scrutiny - imbues it with meaning.
Is your answer really that this is all a happy accident? That gravity pulled our planet together... and stuff grew from nothing... and then you had consciousness... was just one big fluke?
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 22:50 - Aug 4 by BrixtonBlue
That's a fair and rational view. It's fine to think it... I just don't see why you'd broadcast it so vigorously. I can understand why religious fundamentalists broadcast it, just not sure why those at the opposite end feel the need to. It's like shouting about the beauty of a blank canvas.
By the way, I don't subscribe to your absence of evidence. To me, the evidence something incredible, something we can't fathom, and yes something with some meaning, even if we don't know what that meaning is, has happened and is all around us. Even if you say Mother Nature is god, evolution is god, it's still valid. I don't subscribe to the old man with a big beard, or the chubby fella, or anything designed by man to mean 'god'. But the evidence that something beyond our understanding has happened is in front of you right now.
It might sound weird, but I feel like the fact that we don't understand it - and every rational explanation falls down under scrutiny - imbues it with meaning.
Is your answer really that this is all a happy accident? That gravity pulled our planet together... and stuff grew from nothing... and then you had consciousness... was just one big fluke?
That, to me, is more fanciful.
"Is your answer really that this is all a happy accident? That gravity pulled our planet together... and stuff grew from nothing... and then you had consciousness... was just one big fluke?"
It's not a fluke. It didn't grow from nothing. Life followed an understandable set of laws which resulted in intelligence after 4.5 billion years. The laws are constant and have probably had the same results countless times across the universe. There is no need to ascribe anything above that to the process.
SB
[Post edited 4 Aug 2020 23:20]
Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula
4
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 23:55 - Aug 4 with 5414 views
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 22:50 - Aug 4 by BrixtonBlue
That's a fair and rational view. It's fine to think it... I just don't see why you'd broadcast it so vigorously. I can understand why religious fundamentalists broadcast it, just not sure why those at the opposite end feel the need to. It's like shouting about the beauty of a blank canvas.
By the way, I don't subscribe to your absence of evidence. To me, the evidence something incredible, something we can't fathom, and yes something with some meaning, even if we don't know what that meaning is, has happened and is all around us. Even if you say Mother Nature is god, evolution is god, it's still valid. I don't subscribe to the old man with a big beard, or the chubby fella, or anything designed by man to mean 'god'. But the evidence that something beyond our understanding has happened is in front of you right now.
It might sound weird, but I feel like the fact that we don't understand it - and every rational explanation falls down under scrutiny - imbues it with meaning.
Is your answer really that this is all a happy accident? That gravity pulled our planet together... and stuff grew from nothing... and then you had consciousness... was just one big fluke?
That, to me, is more fanciful.
I'm not exactly broadcasting anything. I said there is no meaning of life in response to J2 suggesting there was and all I've done since is reply to you.
Our understanding of the universe is increasing all the time and we have plausible explanations for how it came into existence. None of these require God or mother nature or anything especially mystical. The wonder of existence as you call it doesn't prove anything at all, it isn't evidence of some greater meaning or purpose.
You think it's fanciful that human life came about by chance. Why? The universe is infinite. The chances are we aren't the only life or indeed the only intelligent life in the universe. For all we know entire civilisations may have lived and gone extinct when we were still making our way out of the sea. Other civilisations may yet to have evolved.
You not understanding why life exists and thinking it seems miraculous really isn't evidence of some greater meaning or purpose I'm afraid.
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 23:55 - Aug 4 by Herbivore
I'm not exactly broadcasting anything. I said there is no meaning of life in response to J2 suggesting there was and all I've done since is reply to you.
Our understanding of the universe is increasing all the time and we have plausible explanations for how it came into existence. None of these require God or mother nature or anything especially mystical. The wonder of existence as you call it doesn't prove anything at all, it isn't evidence of some greater meaning or purpose.
You think it's fanciful that human life came about by chance. Why? The universe is infinite. The chances are we aren't the only life or indeed the only intelligent life in the universe. For all we know entire civilisations may have lived and gone extinct when we were still making our way out of the sea. Other civilisations may yet to have evolved.
You not understanding why life exists and thinking it seems miraculous really isn't evidence of some greater meaning or purpose I'm afraid.
[Post edited 4 Aug 2020 23:56]
Agreed that we have plausible explanations of how the Universe came into existence but we can ask what was there before the Universe came into existence, although we do have to wrestle with the concept of a curved space/time continuum that answers our question before we ask it...
Even if we could establish some pre-existing wonder prior to this Universe it would not be miraculous, it would be natural. Mind you Spinoza, Voltaire and David Hume all had proofs that there are no miracles along this theme which appeared knock down arguments at first blush. And the responses have been building ever since to an extent that make a TWTD twenty pager seem like the blink of an eye...[edit} https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/miracles/#ArgAgaMirCla
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 16:21 - Aug 4 by BrixtonBlue
Is it not possible that the intelligent life still around then will have mastered the ability to artificially create their own stars?
Unlikely, because the creation of a new star would cause noise pollution to number 26 during the building phase so the local parish council have blocked it.
2
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 09:02 - Aug 5 with 5331 views
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 15:11 - Aug 4 by BlueBadger
'Piling on' is the new 'no free speech on TWTD' for a certain flavour of prat. They've realised that FoS also extends to people pointing out to them why they're talking sh1t so now they're going to make nebulous whines about being bullied, despite having come along obviously fishing.
the real problem, as this board so often proves, is framing discussion as 'pointing out to them why they're talking sh1t'. seeking to divide everyone as either with us or against us, right or wrong, talking sh1t or using facts, actively creates division. sadly some people only find their own identify by presenting the world in terms of opposing extremes. they set out to create a dichotomy which they can then police - labelling people, jumping on perceived infringements and hollowing out the political spectrum to support their own sense of self.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
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