| Four into two 08:57 - Aug 19 with 5226 views | IpswichKnight |
We have a bit of a quandary coming up, we have 4 number 10’s and realistically only 2 spots available one starting and one on the bench, so who starts and who’s in the bench out of
Bishop
Judge
El-Miz
Dobra
It sounds like Dobra will be used more as a wide player so think we can discount him for the moment.
That leaves Bishop, Judge and El-Miz fighting it out for 2 spots. For me I’d pick Bishop and El-Miz, El-Miz as he offers a goal threat and set piece too but I suspect he will currently be the one to miss out.
Was heartening to have all 4 play well though! |  | | |  |
| Four into two on 08:16 - Aug 20 with 1650 views | Herbivore |
| Four into two on 08:10 - Aug 20 by Terry_Nutkins |
I think it's well documented he had a fair bit going on as well as the injury and he was trying too hard. I think a culmination of things. Whatever the reasons there is no doubt he didn't live up to what we expected. Poor seasons can happen (he wasn't dreadful by any means though btw). You can't really question his actual ability though an
I don't think the 'youngsters might' learn from him. They absolutely WILL learn from him and I don't get your concern over his wages now with the cap. We can't spend the saving and we certainly won't get a Judge calibre older for £1300 a week.
Can't wait to El Miz performing but it's unlikely that he'll be able to play week in and week out at the required level at this stage. Judge will be important. There is no negative to having him around post salary cap. When his full wages count then there becomes a different story unless he is performing at top level. Think he'll have a better season. I like that he has talked about the fact he has settled the family here. Important. |
We're still paying him actual money you do realise? We're not now paying him salary cap wages, his much larger wage still has to be covered. Perhaps with the money we save on Judge's wages we might be more able to afford to pay off Lambert rather than have to hold on to him.
I think Judge has probably had more excuses made for him than any ITFC player in my time supporting the team. People keep saying he's undoubted quality and yet I doubt it as I've barely seen any of it in the 18 months since he's been here. He was a good player pre-injury but that's going back years now. I'd love him to prove me wrong but I'm not going to get my hopes up after one preseason kick about when he's been underwhelming for a season and a half. |  |
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| Four into two on 09:06 - Aug 20 with 1628 views | Terry_Nutkins |
| Four into two on 08:16 - Aug 20 by Herbivore |
We're still paying him actual money you do realise? We're not now paying him salary cap wages, his much larger wage still has to be covered. Perhaps with the money we save on Judge's wages we might be more able to afford to pay off Lambert rather than have to hold on to him.
I think Judge has probably had more excuses made for him than any ITFC player in my time supporting the team. People keep saying he's undoubted quality and yet I doubt it as I've barely seen any of it in the 18 months since he's been here. He was a good player pre-injury but that's going back years now. I'd love him to prove me wrong but I'm not going to get my hopes up after one preseason kick about when he's been underwhelming for a season and a half. |
You've turned to babyish arguments...
Yes I'm not thick I'm aware Marcus is paying him actual wages. That's neither yours or my concern is it. The point is if he stops paying it he can only re-invest a fraction of it so it's not worth it unless you are literally concerned for Marcus' bank balance (that's your only arguement there).
You've now managed to shoe-horn in an argument to get rid of Lambert. It,'s like a tick with you and Bluefish. Tragic.
Judge hasn't had loads of excuses. He's had a load of criticism for his performances. Largely justified. I don't think he's rubbish though. He's not lived up to his wages for sure. But we are best to look for him to find his form now with the salary cap in place. | |
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| Four into two on 09:31 - Aug 20 with 1608 views | Herbivore |
| Four into two on 09:06 - Aug 20 by Terry_Nutkins |
You've turned to babyish arguments...
Yes I'm not thick I'm aware Marcus is paying him actual wages. That's neither yours or my concern is it. The point is if he stops paying it he can only re-invest a fraction of it so it's not worth it unless you are literally concerned for Marcus' bank balance (that's your only arguement there).
You've now managed to shoe-horn in an argument to get rid of Lambert. It,'s like a tick with you and Bluefish. Tragic.
Judge hasn't had loads of excuses. He's had a load of criticism for his performances. Largely justified. I don't think he's rubbish though. He's not lived up to his wages for sure. But we are best to look for him to find his form now with the salary cap in place. |
The squad needs to be trimmed and he is obvious deadwood. It frees up money, quite a bit given his wages, that can be reinvested in other areas of the club or in an area of the squad that is more of a priority. If we get rid of Judge we don't need to replace him like for like as we have plenty of players capable of filling his spot in the team already. All he's doing is blocking those players at the minute.
Sorry I triggered you by bringing up getting rid of Lambert, I know the idea is upsetting for you. | |
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| Four into two on 13:07 - Aug 20 with 1579 views | Garv |
| Four into two on 09:31 - Aug 20 by Herbivore |
The squad needs to be trimmed and he is obvious deadwood. It frees up money, quite a bit given his wages, that can be reinvested in other areas of the club or in an area of the squad that is more of a priority. If we get rid of Judge we don't need to replace him like for like as we have plenty of players capable of filling his spot in the team already. All he's doing is blocking those players at the minute.
Sorry I triggered you by bringing up getting rid of Lambert, I know the idea is upsetting for you. |
Third highest goals/assists provider from last season is deadwood? |  |
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| Four into two on 13:18 - Aug 20 with 1575 views | Herbivore |
| Four into two on 13:07 - Aug 20 by Garv |
Third highest goals/assists provider from last season is deadwood? |
Fourth highest, our left back and two main strikers contributed more. When you're talking 3 goals and 4 assists from a number 10 over the course of a season, then yes I'd describe that as deadwood. We finished 11th in the third division, mate. Our number 10 offering so little was part of the problem. We've got younger, far more dynamic players that deserve a chance ahead of Judge. | |
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| Four into two on 13:52 - Aug 20 with 1562 views | Enigma_Blue |
| Four into two on 13:18 - Aug 20 by Herbivore |
Fourth highest, our left back and two main strikers contributed more. When you're talking 3 goals and 4 assists from a number 10 over the course of a season, then yes I'd describe that as deadwood. We finished 11th in the third division, mate. Our number 10 offering so little was part of the problem. We've got younger, far more dynamic players that deserve a chance ahead of Judge. |
This would be a reasonable argument if Judge had played the majority of last season in the number 10 role but he didn't. He played the majority of last season on the left of midfield which clearly isn't his best position. Perhaps if he could get a run of games in his preferred position we might get a better return from him in terms of goals and assists. Personally I think we should keep Judge because as it's unlikely Garbutt will be signing for us we need a player who is good from set pieces. Judge is the best dead ball specialist we have currently at the club. | | | |
| Four into two on 13:59 - Aug 20 with 1555 views | Herbivore |
| Four into two on 13:52 - Aug 20 by Enigma_Blue |
This would be a reasonable argument if Judge had played the majority of last season in the number 10 role but he didn't. He played the majority of last season on the left of midfield which clearly isn't his best position. Perhaps if he could get a run of games in his preferred position we might get a better return from him in terms of goals and assists. Personally I think we should keep Judge because as it's unlikely Garbutt will be signing for us we need a player who is good from set pieces. Judge is the best dead ball specialist we have currently at the club. |
How did he play mainly wide left when we spent quite a lot of the season playing 3-5-2 with Judge in the team? He didn't, mostly he was playing centrally as the most advanced of a midfield three. It's yet more excuses for him. He got shunted out to the left at times but even then he was given licence to drift and roam, which he frequently did, though to little effect. Keeping him in the side so he can take corners is mad. We've scored maybe once from a Judge corner, the same number of times we've scored from an El Miz corner as it goes. | |
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| Four into two on 14:07 - Aug 20 with 1547 views | Garv |
| Four into two on 13:18 - Aug 20 by Herbivore |
Fourth highest, our left back and two main strikers contributed more. When you're talking 3 goals and 4 assists from a number 10 over the course of a season, then yes I'd describe that as deadwood. We finished 11th in the third division, mate. Our number 10 offering so little was part of the problem. We've got younger, far more dynamic players that deserve a chance ahead of Judge. |
I was using all comps figures, in which case he's tied with Garbutt (who is no longer here meaning we're one proven creative player down).
We finished 11th because as a whole the team wasn't good enough. Where's the criticism of the rest of our midfield for lack of goals/assists?
Yes we've younger players that deserve a chance, doesn't make them automatically better than someone older than them and isn't an excuse to bin off a player who was one of our more productive players last season. Irrespective of the fact he underwhelmed, so did the majority. | |
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| Four into two on 14:11 - Aug 20 with 1545 views | Herbivore |
| Four into two on 14:07 - Aug 20 by Garv |
I was using all comps figures, in which case he's tied with Garbutt (who is no longer here meaning we're one proven creative player down).
We finished 11th because as a whole the team wasn't good enough. Where's the criticism of the rest of our midfield for lack of goals/assists?
Yes we've younger players that deserve a chance, doesn't make them automatically better than someone older than them and isn't an excuse to bin off a player who was one of our more productive players last season. Irrespective of the fact he underwhelmed, so did the majority. |
One of our most productive? He's in the team to create chances and chip in with goals. He contributed to 7 goals. Comparing him to other midfielders is pointless when their role was mainly to sit so that Judge could dick about with no real responsibility whilst not really doing very much. I don't think he makes us any better. He's had a year and a half, time to give the youngsters a chance to shine instead. | |
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| Four into two on 14:23 - Aug 20 with 1538 views | clive_baker |
It's really a bit ridiculous to compare the likes of Dobra and El-Miz, who have only made a handful of fleeting appearances, to seasoned professionals like Judge. I think some of our supporters underestimate what it takes to play 40 odd games in the 3rd tier in this country and the physical and mental demands of that. Not to mention the value of the experience and leadership qualities these senior pros bring. Judge is miles ahead of those lads, and will absolutely be heavily involved this season, and rightly so. The younger lads have shown promise, and I hope to see them break through, but a good result for those lads is something like 6+ league starts this season.
If fit, I think we'll line up something like:
Holy
KVY Chambers Woolfenden Ward
Judge Downes Huws
Edwards Norwood Jackson
Subs: Cornell, Kenlock, Nsiala, Sears, Skuse, Bishop, Hawkins.
The job for the likes of Lankester, El-Miz, Dobra, Drinan, Dozzell is to get themselves into contention on the training ground and take their opportunities when they come, but anyone thinking they'll be starting week in, week out might be a disappointed.
I think opportunities might be limited for Nolan, Wilson and Donacien.
I really think we're better placed than we were last season by way of squad, with some of our key players being 1 year older and wiser, and the addition of a natural and experienced left back which was a real problem area last year. We need to hope injuries are kinder to us, especially defensively. I'm still not convinced we have a manager to lead this squad to promotion however. |  |
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| Four into two on 14:27 - Aug 20 with 1533 views | Enigma_Blue |
| Four into two on 13:59 - Aug 20 by Herbivore |
How did he play mainly wide left when we spent quite a lot of the season playing 3-5-2 with Judge in the team? He didn't, mostly he was playing centrally as the most advanced of a midfield three. It's yet more excuses for him. He got shunted out to the left at times but even then he was given licence to drift and roam, which he frequently did, though to little effect. Keeping him in the side so he can take corners is mad. We've scored maybe once from a Judge corner, the same number of times we've scored from an El Miz corner as it goes. |
Drifting in and roaming is not the same being consistently in the number 10 position. Also when we played 352 he played as an attacking midfielder not a number 10. Number 10 is playing in the hole between the main striker(s) and the midfield, he rarely got a chance to play this role. He even said himself number 10 was his best position. Lambert should give him a run in his favoured position and then if he doesn't deliver there can be no excuses.
Being a dead ball specialist means free kicks, both direct and indirect as well as corners.
Even if we were to get rid of Judge I think it's highly unlikely the likes of El Mizouni and Dobra will get many starts. If we had a manager that put more trust in youth like Burley then yes but we have Lambert who trusts youth even less than Mccarthy. El Mizouni, Dobra and Lankester will most likely be used as impact subs this season.
Edit: Saying Judge only got one assist from a corner isn't a true reflection of his quality as set pieces as he put in a number of good free kicks and corners but it was the failure of other players not to make the most of his delivery into the box. [Post edited 20 Aug 2020 14:34]
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| Four into two on 14:30 - Aug 20 with 1529 views | Herbivore |
| Four into two on 14:23 - Aug 20 by clive_baker |
It's really a bit ridiculous to compare the likes of Dobra and El-Miz, who have only made a handful of fleeting appearances, to seasoned professionals like Judge. I think some of our supporters underestimate what it takes to play 40 odd games in the 3rd tier in this country and the physical and mental demands of that. Not to mention the value of the experience and leadership qualities these senior pros bring. Judge is miles ahead of those lads, and will absolutely be heavily involved this season, and rightly so. The younger lads have shown promise, and I hope to see them break through, but a good result for those lads is something like 6+ league starts this season.
If fit, I think we'll line up something like:
Holy
KVY Chambers Woolfenden Ward
Judge Downes Huws
Edwards Norwood Jackson
Subs: Cornell, Kenlock, Nsiala, Sears, Skuse, Bishop, Hawkins.
The job for the likes of Lankester, El-Miz, Dobra, Drinan, Dozzell is to get themselves into contention on the training ground and take their opportunities when they come, but anyone thinking they'll be starting week in, week out might be a disappointed.
I think opportunities might be limited for Nolan, Wilson and Donacien.
I really think we're better placed than we were last season by way of squad, with some of our key players being 1 year older and wiser, and the addition of a natural and experienced left back which was a real problem area last year. We need to hope injuries are kinder to us, especially defensively. I'm still not convinced we have a manager to lead this squad to promotion however. |
That starting XI and subs bench is massively depressing. There's a middle ground between expecting the youngsters to play 40 games and managing to incorporate them effectively. We have enough good quality young players to rotate them in and out but I think if we start with the pedestrian midfield you've gone for and Edwards as part of a front three we're in for another slog. | |
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| Four into two on 14:34 - Aug 20 with 1523 views | Herbivore |
| Four into two on 14:27 - Aug 20 by Enigma_Blue |
Drifting in and roaming is not the same being consistently in the number 10 position. Also when we played 352 he played as an attacking midfielder not a number 10. Number 10 is playing in the hole between the main striker(s) and the midfield, he rarely got a chance to play this role. He even said himself number 10 was his best position. Lambert should give him a run in his favoured position and then if he doesn't deliver there can be no excuses.
Being a dead ball specialist means free kicks, both direct and indirect as well as corners.
Even if we were to get rid of Judge I think it's highly unlikely the likes of El Mizouni and Dobra will get many starts. If we had a manager that put more trust in youth like Burley then yes but we have Lambert who trusts youth even less than Mccarthy. El Mizouni, Dobra and Lankester will most likely be used as impact subs this season.
Edit: Saying Judge only got one assist from a corner isn't a true reflection of his quality as set pieces as he put in a number of good free kicks and corners but it was the failure of other players not to make the most of his delivery into the box. [Post edited 20 Aug 2020 14:34]
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When we played 3-5-2 he largely played in the hole between the front 2 and the midfield. You can window dress it any way you like, he's played plenty of times in his favoured position and has had a handful of effective performances.
I am talking about what I would like to see happen rather than what our incompetent manager will do. I fully expect Judge to be starting ahead of the young players, depressingly.
Edit - and back to it being everyone else's fault that Judge doesn't contribute enough. His set pieces have largely been mediocre in his time here, much like his all round performances. [Post edited 20 Aug 2020 14:47]
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| Four into two on 14:50 - Aug 20 with 1504 views | TheTrueBlue1878 |
Again we have a large game load this season, to have 4 good options there isn't an issue at all.
I also think Dobra will operate from a wider position this year.
Thought all 4 did well on Tuesday night to be fair though, which is really good to see. |  |
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| Four into two on 14:50 - Aug 20 with 1507 views | Garv |
| Four into two on 14:11 - Aug 20 by Herbivore |
One of our most productive? He's in the team to create chances and chip in with goals. He contributed to 7 goals. Comparing him to other midfielders is pointless when their role was mainly to sit so that Judge could dick about with no real responsibility whilst not really doing very much. I don't think he makes us any better. He's had a year and a half, time to give the youngsters a chance to shine instead. |
'time to give the youngsters a chance to shine' - absolutely. Judge continuing to be contracted to Ipswich doesn't stop that happening. The only benefit to him leaving is financially, and I don't know why fans get so caught up in finances when it's not something we know enough detail about and also have no control over.
If Lambert is as useless as he's made out to be then any replacements won't be good enough, and if the youngsters don't perform as expected and Bishop gets another long term injury, then we're stuffed. | |
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| Four into two on 14:50 - Aug 20 with 1504 views | Enigma_Blue |
| Four into two on 14:34 - Aug 20 by Herbivore |
When we played 3-5-2 he largely played in the hole between the front 2 and the midfield. You can window dress it any way you like, he's played plenty of times in his favoured position and has had a handful of effective performances.
I am talking about what I would like to see happen rather than what our incompetent manager will do. I fully expect Judge to be starting ahead of the young players, depressingly.
Edit - and back to it being everyone else's fault that Judge doesn't contribute enough. His set pieces have largely been mediocre in his time here, much like his all round performances. [Post edited 20 Aug 2020 14:47]
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I cant agree with you that he played in the hole, he played as an attacking midfielder in the 352 there is a difference, Frank Lampard and Franz Thjsson were attacking midfielders they weren't number 10's. Bergkamp & Zola were number 10's. Didzy was the last proper number 10 for us. I will accept that judge should have done better playing as an attacking central midfielder last season but it is still not his best or favoured position.
Maybe Lambert will prove us both wrong and play the youngsters more nest season. We can only hope. | | | |
| Four into two on 14:53 - Aug 20 with 1499 views | Garv |
| Four into two on 14:34 - Aug 20 by Herbivore |
When we played 3-5-2 he largely played in the hole between the front 2 and the midfield. You can window dress it any way you like, he's played plenty of times in his favoured position and has had a handful of effective performances.
I am talking about what I would like to see happen rather than what our incompetent manager will do. I fully expect Judge to be starting ahead of the young players, depressingly.
Edit - and back to it being everyone else's fault that Judge doesn't contribute enough. His set pieces have largely been mediocre in his time here, much like his all round performances. [Post edited 20 Aug 2020 14:47]
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Didn't you say Garbutt would have had more assists if Norwood could finish? | |
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| Four into two on 14:58 - Aug 20 with 1496 views | Herbivore |
| Four into two on 14:50 - Aug 20 by Enigma_Blue |
I cant agree with you that he played in the hole, he played as an attacking midfielder in the 352 there is a difference, Frank Lampard and Franz Thjsson were attacking midfielders they weren't number 10's. Bergkamp & Zola were number 10's. Didzy was the last proper number 10 for us. I will accept that judge should have done better playing as an attacking central midfielder last season but it is still not his best or favoured position.
Maybe Lambert will prove us both wrong and play the youngsters more nest season. We can only hope. |
Zola and Bergkamp are actual forwards capable of 15-20 goals a season. That isn't Alan Judge, he's spent his entire career as a midfield player. That said, he did play a few times (ineffectually) as a second striker last season. In our midfield three in the 3-5-2 he was, to all intents and purposes, playing in the space between the midfield and the front two. If that is not his favoured position then clearly his position and the formation needed to accommodate it is incredibly specific to the extent I've not seen anyone really pin it down.
I won't hold my breath on Lambert playing the youngsters more. He'll go with the same one paced and one dimensional line ups as last season I expect. | |
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| Four into two on 14:59 - Aug 20 with 1496 views | Herbivore |
| Four into two on 14:53 - Aug 20 by Garv |
Didn't you say Garbutt would have had more assists if Norwood could finish? |
No, I said that about Jackson. But Jackson doesn't need that excuse as he managed 7 assists from open play as it was. It was more to highlight how effective Jackson is at creating good chances for others when he works the chanels. Nice try though. | |
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| Four into two on 15:00 - Aug 20 with 1493 views | clive_baker |
| Four into two on 14:30 - Aug 20 by Herbivore |
That starting XI and subs bench is massively depressing. There's a middle ground between expecting the youngsters to play 40 games and managing to incorporate them effectively. We have enough good quality young players to rotate them in and out but I think if we start with the pedestrian midfield you've gone for and Edwards as part of a front three we're in for another slog. |
I think the issue is we don't have anywhere near enough evidence to suggest that these players are capable at the level we're playing at. Neither Dobra nor El Miz have ever started a league game for us, yet I'm seeing people include them in their team ahead of Jackson or Judge, will frankly is ludicrous. Dobra's looked exciting in a pre season kick about against Colchester and a mickey mouse cup game against Spurs U11's, but It's absolutely worlds apart from league games against a Pompey or Peterborough by way of quality and pressure. When he gets his chance, he really needs to take it and give Lambert something to think about, but there's no way he'll be regularly starting games ahead of the likes of Edwards, Sears, Judge, Jackson et al right now. | |
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| Four into two on 15:01 - Aug 20 with 1492 views | Herbivore |
| Four into two on 14:50 - Aug 20 by Garv |
'time to give the youngsters a chance to shine' - absolutely. Judge continuing to be contracted to Ipswich doesn't stop that happening. The only benefit to him leaving is financially, and I don't know why fans get so caught up in finances when it's not something we know enough detail about and also have no control over.
If Lambert is as useless as he's made out to be then any replacements won't be good enough, and if the youngsters don't perform as expected and Bishop gets another long term injury, then we're stuffed. |
Judge will block the youngsters getting game time. We've already seen Lambert will persist with him even when he's not contributing. | |
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| Four into two on 15:04 - Aug 20 with 1488 views | Herbivore |
| Four into two on 15:00 - Aug 20 by clive_baker |
I think the issue is we don't have anywhere near enough evidence to suggest that these players are capable at the level we're playing at. Neither Dobra nor El Miz have ever started a league game for us, yet I'm seeing people include them in their team ahead of Jackson or Judge, will frankly is ludicrous. Dobra's looked exciting in a pre season kick about against Colchester and a mickey mouse cup game against Spurs U11's, but It's absolutely worlds apart from league games against a Pompey or Peterborough by way of quality and pressure. When he gets his chance, he really needs to take it and give Lambert something to think about, but there's no way he'll be regularly starting games ahead of the likes of Edwards, Sears, Judge, Jackson et al right now. |
El Miz started against AFC Wimbledon last year I think.
The lack of evidence of their ability at this level is largely down to Lambert not giving them enough game time last season even when the experienced pros weren't performing. Only a handful of sides gave fewer minutes to young players than us in this league last season. It's depressing seeing our fans advocating for that to continue, especially after the old guard failed so spectacularly last season. | |
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| Four into two on 15:20 - Aug 20 with 1484 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Four into two on 14:11 - Aug 20 by Herbivore |
One of our most productive? He's in the team to create chances and chip in with goals. He contributed to 7 goals. Comparing him to other midfielders is pointless when their role was mainly to sit so that Judge could dick about with no real responsibility whilst not really doing very much. I don't think he makes us any better. He's had a year and a half, time to give the youngsters a chance to shine instead. |
It's clear you have very little patience with players or managers. This isn't a computer game. Judge has been dealing with off field issues - with a clear head, settled family and full pre-season with no knocks (even if it was wrist, it still impedes you), he could start to become the player with us we hoped he would.
Certainly worth another shot for me. |  |
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| Four into two on 15:31 - Aug 20 with 1476 views | Herbivore |
| Four into two on 15:20 - Aug 20 by BrixtonBlue |
It's clear you have very little patience with players or managers. This isn't a computer game. Judge has been dealing with off field issues - with a clear head, settled family and full pre-season with no knocks (even if it was wrist, it still impedes you), he could start to become the player with us we hoped he would.
Certainly worth another shot for me. |
Don't patronise me, Dollers. | |
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| Four into two on 15:36 - Aug 20 with 1467 views | portmanking |
| Four into two on 15:31 - Aug 20 by Herbivore |
Don't patronise me, Dollers. |
He is right on the latter part of his post, at least.
Judge himself admitted to being mentally drained by off-field matters. He had 10% of pre-season and by his own admission was nowhere near full fitness. It's obviously a now-or-never season for him and you can already sense that in his body language in his recent iFollow interview.
Get him central and have others doing the wide work and Judge SHOULD still be streets ahead of most in League One. | | | |
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