| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? 08:45 - Aug 20 with 2881 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
https://www.itv.com/news/2020-08-20/children-may-carry-more-covid-19-in-systems-
"I was surprised by the high levels of virus we found in children of all ages, especially in the first two days of infection. I was not expecting the viral load to be so high.
You think of a hospital, and of all of the precautions taken to treat severely ill adults, but the viral loads of these hospitalised patients are significantly lower than a ‘healthy child’ who is walking around with a high Sars-CoV-2 viral load."
|  |
| |  |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 08:51 - Aug 20 with 1874 views | Keno |
that's hardly an extensive study
In a study of 192 children aged 0-22, 49 children tested positive for coronavirus, and an additional 18 had late-onset, Covid-19-related illness. |  |
| |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:07 - Aug 20 with 1818 views | homer_123 |
On R4 yesterday Gavin what's his name was on justifying the abolition of Public Health England.
His comment, that seemed to be missed by Martha Kearney (i think it was her) was that the main reason for ramping up testing as they are planning to do is to manage and deal with the predicted surge in cases in late Sept into Oct.
Now, what does the coincide with? |  |
| |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:08 - Aug 20 with 1809 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:07 - Aug 20 by homer_123 |
On R4 yesterday Gavin what's his name was on justifying the abolition of Public Health England.
His comment, that seemed to be missed by Martha Kearney (i think it was her) was that the main reason for ramping up testing as they are planning to do is to manage and deal with the predicted surge in cases in late Sept into Oct.
Now, what does the coincide with? |
Our first losing streak?
Or I think I've got it - Bishop's next injury? [Post edited 20 Aug 2020 9:08]
|  |
| |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:08 - Aug 20 with 1809 views | homer_123 |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:08 - Aug 20 by Swansea_Blue |
Our first losing streak?
Or I think I've got it - Bishop's next injury? [Post edited 20 Aug 2020 9:08]
|
Well yes, that's a given. | |
| |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:11 - Aug 20 with 1803 views | Swansea_Blue |
It's going to be an 'interesting' time for sure if this little rise we're seeing now carries on. Trouble is it's now become a cult to say children HAVE to go back to school. Even Starmer's joined in.
Surely the right thing to say is that there's every intention to get the kids back as a priority, but containing/eliminating the virus has to come first. If that means some or a majority of kids need to wait a bit, then so be it. | |
| |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:16 - Aug 20 with 1783 views | StokieBlue |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:11 - Aug 20 by Swansea_Blue |
It's going to be an 'interesting' time for sure if this little rise we're seeing now carries on. Trouble is it's now become a cult to say children HAVE to go back to school. Even Starmer's joined in.
Surely the right thing to say is that there's every intention to get the kids back as a priority, but containing/eliminating the virus has to come first. If that means some or a majority of kids need to wait a bit, then so be it. |
How long is a "bit" though? We have no idea how long it will take to "contain/eliminate" the virus. It might not even be possible to eliminate the virus without a fully effective vaccine.
Kids have already lost nearly 6 months schooling, it's storing up huge problems for the future if we don't get them back soon. Some won't even have a good foundation to build on at this rate if they miss the early years - learning to read and basic maths is pretty much the foundation of everything else they are going to do.
It's a difficult equation to balance.
SB |  | | |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:17 - Aug 20 with 1784 views | StokieBlue |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 08:51 - Aug 20 by Keno |
that's hardly an extensive study
In a study of 192 children aged 0-22, 49 children tested positive for coronavirus, and an additional 18 had late-onset, Covid-19-related illness. |
Also:
"However, the study only looked at symptomatic children, and did not measure transmission itself."
"The study was not designed to assess risk of transmission."
"The study was performed in children presenting and/or admitted to hospital, which we know is different from children presenting to community practices, and therefore the conclusions and translations the authors make with respect to schools is in my opinion too far-reaching, and is not supported by the data they present."
SB | | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:19 - Aug 20 with 1776 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:11 - Aug 20 by Swansea_Blue |
It's going to be an 'interesting' time for sure if this little rise we're seeing now carries on. Trouble is it's now become a cult to say children HAVE to go back to school. Even Starmer's joined in.
Surely the right thing to say is that there's every intention to get the kids back as a priority, but containing/eliminating the virus has to come first. If that means some or a majority of kids need to wait a bit, then so be it. |
Loads of kids are back at nursery.
Has this led to any localised spikes? |  |
| |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:20 - Aug 20 with 1780 views | homer_123 |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:11 - Aug 20 by Swansea_Blue |
It's going to be an 'interesting' time for sure if this little rise we're seeing now carries on. Trouble is it's now become a cult to say children HAVE to go back to school. Even Starmer's joined in.
Surely the right thing to say is that there's every intention to get the kids back as a priority, but containing/eliminating the virus has to come first. If that means some or a majority of kids need to wait a bit, then so be it. |
I think, sadly, we are well past that sensible thinking Swansea.
Everything you generally read, listen to or hear from Government, Business and the Public is very much about getting back to 'normal'.
Again, yesterday, on the potential need for local lockdown in Oldham, Sean Fielding (local Labour councillor) said it would be 'catastrophic' to implement them after businesses have spent so much of becoming 'covid safe' (which, in itself, isn't possible).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-53832524
The narrative has completely changed. The focus has shifted to getting the economy and liquidity moving (and I get that) but now that need appears to outweigh safety. I'm assuming that this is due to the fact that the NHS could now cope with an increase? | |
| |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:21 - Aug 20 with 1773 views | homer_123 |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:16 - Aug 20 by StokieBlue |
How long is a "bit" though? We have no idea how long it will take to "contain/eliminate" the virus. It might not even be possible to eliminate the virus without a fully effective vaccine.
Kids have already lost nearly 6 months schooling, it's storing up huge problems for the future if we don't get them back soon. Some won't even have a good foundation to build on at this rate if they miss the early years - learning to read and basic maths is pretty much the foundation of everything else they are going to do.
It's a difficult equation to balance.
SB |
So, again, are we at the point where we just accept the virus for what it is and just get on with life and take the risk?
To be honest, it's an impossible balance isn't it? There is, still, no right answer. | |
| |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:23 - Aug 20 with 1764 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:20 - Aug 20 by homer_123 |
I think, sadly, we are well past that sensible thinking Swansea.
Everything you generally read, listen to or hear from Government, Business and the Public is very much about getting back to 'normal'.
Again, yesterday, on the potential need for local lockdown in Oldham, Sean Fielding (local Labour councillor) said it would be 'catastrophic' to implement them after businesses have spent so much of becoming 'covid safe' (which, in itself, isn't possible).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-53832524
The narrative has completely changed. The focus has shifted to getting the economy and liquidity moving (and I get that) but now that need appears to outweigh safety. I'm assuming that this is due to the fact that the NHS could now cope with an increase? |
We are going to have to learn to live with it to an extent unfortunately.
And when we say normal, 6 months ago we wouldn't have seen the following as normal;
- Face masks in shops.
- Not being able to hug family members.
- Working from home is the norm.
- Social distancing from everyone.
- Plastic barriers in shops / pubs etc. | |
| |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:25 - Aug 20 with 1754 views | GeoffSentence |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:16 - Aug 20 by StokieBlue |
How long is a "bit" though? We have no idea how long it will take to "contain/eliminate" the virus. It might not even be possible to eliminate the virus without a fully effective vaccine.
Kids have already lost nearly 6 months schooling, it's storing up huge problems for the future if we don't get them back soon. Some won't even have a good foundation to build on at this rate if they miss the early years - learning to read and basic maths is pretty much the foundation of everything else they are going to do.
It's a difficult equation to balance.
SB |
Arrrghhh. This always gets me. Kids have lost a lot of time from school, but it isn't six months. We went into lockdown on March 23rd. That's about 4 months from then to the start of the summer holidays. In that time there were Easter Holidays and Half Term holidays. They have lost closer to 3 months schooling than 6 months. |  |
| |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:26 - Aug 20 with 1752 views | StokieBlue |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:21 - Aug 20 by homer_123 |
So, again, are we at the point where we just accept the virus for what it is and just get on with life and take the risk?
To be honest, it's an impossible balance isn't it? There is, still, no right answer. |
I've not said that.
But not educating our kids for X months is going to store up a whole raft of different social problems for the future.
It's been 6 months of no school, not seeing their friends etc. It's going to have had a massive effect on many kids.
I would add that things like football summer club have been back on all summer holidays with full contact so if that's allowed then it's strange to say schooling shouldn't be.
As I said, it's a very hard balance to try and strike.
SB | | | |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:27 - Aug 20 with 1749 views | homer_123 |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:26 - Aug 20 by StokieBlue |
I've not said that.
But not educating our kids for X months is going to store up a whole raft of different social problems for the future.
It's been 6 months of no school, not seeing their friends etc. It's going to have had a massive effect on many kids.
I would add that things like football summer club have been back on all summer holidays with full contact so if that's allowed then it's strange to say schooling shouldn't be.
As I said, it's a very hard balance to try and strike.
SB |
SB - wasn't implying you had said that! Was merely posing the question. [Post edited 20 Aug 2020 9:27]
| |
| |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:28 - Aug 20 with 1742 views | StokieBlue |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:25 - Aug 20 by GeoffSentence |
Arrrghhh. This always gets me. Kids have lost a lot of time from school, but it isn't six months. We went into lockdown on March 23rd. That's about 4 months from then to the start of the summer holidays. In that time there were Easter Holidays and Half Term holidays. They have lost closer to 3 months schooling than 6 months. |
Fine.
They have lost 6 months social development with their friends then and 3 months schooling.
Not to mention some kids won't have done most the school work sent back to them over those 3 months and it's debatable how effective home schooling really is.
Returning to school needs to be evidence based and the article that started this thread really isn't very evidence based.
If the government want schools to go back so adults can get back to work then that isn't going to work either. The school is having different drop-off times for different years and no after school clubs so impossible for parents to work in the office around that.
SB [Post edited 20 Aug 2020 9:30]
| | | |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:32 - Aug 20 with 1726 views | StokieBlue |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:23 - Aug 20 by Marshalls_Mullet |
We are going to have to learn to live with it to an extent unfortunately.
And when we say normal, 6 months ago we wouldn't have seen the following as normal;
- Face masks in shops.
- Not being able to hug family members.
- Working from home is the norm.
- Social distancing from everyone.
- Plastic barriers in shops / pubs etc. |
"Working from home is the norm."
I am slightly worried that everyone working from home being quite successful will open up the idea for companies to offshore a lot more jobs. If people don't need to be in the office then in many cases the role perhaps doesn't need to be in the UK at all.
Obviously not applicable to everything but certainly some sectors could be seen to fall into that category.
SB | | | |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:32 - Aug 20 with 1721 views | GeoffSentence |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:28 - Aug 20 by StokieBlue |
Fine.
They have lost 6 months social development with their friends then and 3 months schooling.
Not to mention some kids won't have done most the school work sent back to them over those 3 months and it's debatable how effective home schooling really is.
Returning to school needs to be evidence based and the article that started this thread really isn't very evidence based.
If the government want schools to go back so adults can get back to work then that isn't going to work either. The school is having different drop-off times for different years and no after school clubs so impossible for parents to work in the office around that.
SB [Post edited 20 Aug 2020 9:30]
|
I hope I didn't come across as too @rsey SB. I do like facts and figures to be right and the amount of times that I hear politicians and educationalists, people who should know better, saying exactly the same thing winds me up a little. | |
| |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:35 - Aug 20 with 1713 views | bluelagos |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:17 - Aug 20 by StokieBlue |
Also:
"However, the study only looked at symptomatic children, and did not measure transmission itself."
"The study was not designed to assess risk of transmission."
"The study was performed in children presenting and/or admitted to hospital, which we know is different from children presenting to community practices, and therefore the conclusions and translations the authors make with respect to schools is in my opinion too far-reaching, and is not supported by the data they present."
SB |
One of the problems seems to be, that we seem unable to take a view on things unless there is scientificly tested evidence.
So we have a new disease, and becuase we dont have the evidence around children and transmissions, we say "there is no evidence children transmit CV any more/less than.."
Yet there is plenty of evidence that children, in school environments do spread other viruses. Ask any teacher and they know how winter bugs spread quickly through a school. This has been happening for years so surely we can conclude, that in the absence of evidence to the contrary, it is probable that schools will be likely to be centers of transmission for CV, where it is in circulation.
The "There is no evidence...' position fails where something is new and science hasnt had the opportunity to do its bit.
Not to say the conclusions here are right/wrong, but I think we should have a default position of kids are (as per flu) likely superspreaders.
You know your sh1t far better than me. Am I wrong? |  |
| |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:36 - Aug 20 with 1706 views | StokieBlue |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:32 - Aug 20 by GeoffSentence |
I hope I didn't come across as too @rsey SB. I do like facts and figures to be right and the amount of times that I hear politicians and educationalists, people who should know better, saying exactly the same thing winds me up a little. |
Not at all, accuracy should always be key.
SB | | | |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:39 - Aug 20 with 1698 views | Keno |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:32 - Aug 20 by StokieBlue |
"Working from home is the norm."
I am slightly worried that everyone working from home being quite successful will open up the idea for companies to offshore a lot more jobs. If people don't need to be in the office then in many cases the role perhaps doesn't need to be in the UK at all.
Obviously not applicable to everything but certainly some sectors could be seen to fall into that category.
SB |
there is some evidence in the FS industry to counter that in that by savings the cost of large city offices they are not so concerned about reducing the costs of the staff themselves | |
| |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:42 - Aug 20 with 1691 views | bluelagos |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:32 - Aug 20 by StokieBlue |
"Working from home is the norm."
I am slightly worried that everyone working from home being quite successful will open up the idea for companies to offshore a lot more jobs. If people don't need to be in the office then in many cases the role perhaps doesn't need to be in the UK at all.
Obviously not applicable to everything but certainly some sectors could be seen to fall into that category.
SB |
Offshoring office jobs. Yep, absolutely the next step for a business looking to save money. Where you need 1 or 2 days a week in the office it doesnt work. 1 or 2 days a month, it's not hard to fly in from Europe. 1 or 2 days a year and you can clearly be based anywhere.
Not been picked up yet by the media but I think you are spot on Stokie. | |
| |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:42 - Aug 20 with 1689 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:32 - Aug 20 by StokieBlue |
"Working from home is the norm."
I am slightly worried that everyone working from home being quite successful will open up the idea for companies to offshore a lot more jobs. If people don't need to be in the office then in many cases the role perhaps doesn't need to be in the UK at all.
Obviously not applicable to everything but certainly some sectors could be seen to fall into that category.
SB |
I think the novelty of WFH is wearing off for a lot of people.
I think its here to stay as part of flexible working, but maybe 1-2 days per week rather than all week.
(Although I say that as someone who works for themselves and has worked from home for the past 8 years!) | |
| |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:43 - Aug 20 with 1688 views | bluelagos |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:39 - Aug 20 by Keno |
there is some evidence in the FS industry to counter that in that by savings the cost of large city offices they are not so concerned about reducing the costs of the staff themselves |
Yet... | |
| |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:43 - Aug 20 with 1692 views | StokieBlue |
| Is this the sound a spanner in the works makes? on 09:35 - Aug 20 by bluelagos |
One of the problems seems to be, that we seem unable to take a view on things unless there is scientificly tested evidence.
So we have a new disease, and becuase we dont have the evidence around children and transmissions, we say "there is no evidence children transmit CV any more/less than.."
Yet there is plenty of evidence that children, in school environments do spread other viruses. Ask any teacher and they know how winter bugs spread quickly through a school. This has been happening for years so surely we can conclude, that in the absence of evidence to the contrary, it is probable that schools will be likely to be centers of transmission for CV, where it is in circulation.
The "There is no evidence...' position fails where something is new and science hasnt had the opportunity to do its bit.
Not to say the conclusions here are right/wrong, but I think we should have a default position of kids are (as per flu) likely superspreaders.
You know your sh1t far better than me. Am I wrong? |
Well having that as the default position would certainly be conservative and the least risk, however it's also not right to say just because X spreads Y disease they must also spread Z disease.
I think it's almost certain that a percentage of kids will spread C19, there doesn't seem to be any reason why not and there isn't evidence to say they don't.
It depends on how much risk you are willing to take to achieve kids getting back to their educational and social development. Unfortunately that is an equation that is impossible to balance whilst pleasing everyone.
If you want 100% C19 risk-free schooling then kids aren't going to be going back for a year - that's a lot of a life to lose at that age being cooped up at home without contact with friends.
To be honest it's not a decision I'd like to have to make.
SB | | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
